Where do tarot meanings come from (for the minors)

firemaiden

This is a question inspired by a conversation in Tarot Creation about the pros and cons of being tied to the RWs model.

The question is what gives the small cards their meanings?

It's sort of a philosophical, and historical question - -- but it's also a personal question -- to you. What makes them mean something to you? Where do you get meanings from? Do you make them up new on the spot every time? Do you follow number and suit? Do you follow a RWS guideline?

When I first began to study tarot, I wondered where on earth the meanings came from -- I assumed that the meanings were somehow intrinsic to number and suit -- as in the ace of cups being a drop of water, three cups a trickle, and the ten of cups being a torrent etc; one pentacle being a seed, ten pentacles being a whole harvest... etc.

Not too long ago, I was wondering where we would get if we looked at the suit of cups as a how many drinks you've had:

Ace of cups : - feeling reeeeal cozy with you
Two of Cups :- ooooooooooo baby, reaaaaally cozy
Three of Cups : Oh her? She's just a friend! lets party!
Four of Cups: -- ummm shhhhhhh... I think I need to sit down a minute.
Five of Cups: - uh oh... sorry -- the room was spinning, I think I just spilled my drink. Come back!
Six of Cups: could you please help me up off the floor?
Seven of Cups :- where am I? who am I? Is that a dagger I see before me? Out damned spot...
Eight of Cups: -- uhoh -- I think they might be kicking me out of this joint
Nine of Cups: -- I can't feel my feet, but that's a good thing
Ten of Cups: is that the pearly gates I see???

Number and suit are natural.

What creates the meanings of the small cards?
 

thorhammer

I dunno. I get the sense that there's a huge, invisible elephant that I'm trying my damnedest to see but JUST CAN'T!!! :D

But, at least in the deck I'm using right now *ducks tomatoes from fiery one*, it seems that it's a combination of the intrinsic nature of the element and the numerological association. Would that be a fair statement, do you think?

Would it be fair to say that that's what's driven the meanings of the Minors all this time . . . and time is what has allowed evolution, simplification . . . (corruption??) of those meanings?

\m/ Kat
 

Grigori

firemaiden said:
It's sort of a philosophical, and historical question - --
Click to expand...

From a historical perspective it of course depends on which deck you are talking about. But if we assume your asking about the RWS deck, then it gets much of its meaning from the Golden Dawn system, as does the Thoth and most modern decks. They have a fairly simple mathematical formula that determines the attributes of any card, from an astrological, elemental, qabalaistic approach. These all get added up together and you get the meaning of the card.

Duquette gives a specific formula for this in his book on Crowley's Thoth.

(n of s) + (p in ZS) = sc

(Number of Suit) + (Planet in Zodiac Sign) = Small card.

As an example for the 2 of wands.

(2 of Fire) + (Mars in Aries) = Lord of Dominion.

2 = Chokmah, duality, impulse and also conception or the beginning of something.
Fire = bursting, creative, firey, passionate, heated, expansive, contagious etc.
Mars = aggresive, male, forceful, harsh, direct, active, etc.
Aries = beginning, spring, firey male energy, masculine, fertile, etc.

Mix these all up, and you get the bossy, domineering, king of the world, 2 of Wands. This gets illustrated in various decks in different ways. But most modern decks, regardless of how they are illustrated or the method, have this as the common denominator at the core.

From a personal perspective, well thats a whole different matter. I'd say the answers more simple "from using them". :)
 

teomat

LOL! Love your drinking analogy!

Assuming you're talking about non-scenic pips, I kinda believe (or rather WANT to believe) that you don't need to look outside tarot to find meanings for the small cards. By this, I mean you don't need to use 'outside sources' (e.g numerology, astrology etc). I like to think that the tarot has it's own internal system.

I also find it hard to just rely on 'looking at the card' and trying to find meaning in a budding flower or curly vine, and much prefer a more 'solid' approach (no offence intended :D).

I've been trying to use a method of linking the suit characteristics with the major cards 1-10 for the pips...AND using the reversed pips for the major cards 11-20. I see the Fool and World as the most significant cards in the deck, so they 'stand alone'.

I'm still trying to get my head around this system (I've never used reversals before), but I do like it and it has given me a fresh alternative than to just sticking with the RWS meanings or using numerology.
 

firemaiden

Well, teomat, I guess I'm not only talking about non-scenic pips, but any minor card. Cards that already have a clear meaning established in their image give me the same question --- I wonder not so much what the card means, but how the meaning got there? What made the artist/creator decide to give the card that meaning?

Teomat I love your idea of using associating the reversed pips with the major cards 11-20. Fascinating idea. Have you any threads on this?

Dear Similia thank you so much for posting the magic forumula: (Number and suit) + (planet in zodiac). That explains a lot. (I guess the next question will be how the the planet in zodiac) thingies got their meanings. Wow your explanation was really beautiful and very clear. Gorgeous. No wonder we fight so much over astrological attributions -- as soon as you change what planet a card is associated with you have to start all over again :p

Thormhammer, I am reserving this tomato for your elephant! Not for you! (He's sitting on my toaster by the way).

Yes I agree that what's driven the meanings of the minors probably has an element of corruption, simplicification, decay. Maybe cards have a half-life like radioactive material.
 

rwcarter

firemaiden said:
Teomat I love your idea of using associating the reversed pips with the major cards 11-20. Fascinating idea. Have you any threads on this?
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Here's one that I know of cause I participated in it and find it an intriguing idea.

Rodney
 

Sophie

They made them up.

But that's the case with everything on earth - it was all made up. Imagination is the spark that leads to creation. Before you can even have that first drink, you need to go to the party :D

And so you might say "2 of Wands means X because of the numerological associations of 2, the symbolic meaning of cups, the association with Chokmah, the association with Aries, etc. etc.". But of course all those associations were made up too, at some point. And all that made-up stuff was organised in various systems, and then links were made up between the systems. And so on.

Everytime we read tarot we add our own imagination. We make up new meanings, to add to the old ones other people made up. And so it goes, getting richer and more elaborate, like brocade. Sometimes you might feel like plain cotton, so you'll chuck it all out and make up a meaning on the spot. "2 of Wands means daydreaming." Sometimes you might want to invent a whole new system - several tarot creators have done that. And sometimes, you will mix cotton and brocade, go on stage, and sing... ;)
 

fluffy

similia said:
As an example for the 2 of wands.

(2 of Fire) + (Mars in Aries) = Lord of Dominion.

2 = Chokmah, duality, impulse and also conception or the beginning of something.
Fire = bursting, creative, firey, passionate, heated, expansive, contagious etc.
Mars = aggresive, male, forceful, harsh, direct, active, etc.
Aries = beginning, spring, firey male energy, masculine, fertile, etc.

Mix these all up, and you get the bossy, domineering, king of the world, 2 of Wands. This gets illustrated in various decks in different ways. But most modern decks, regardless of how they are illustrated or the method, have this as the common denominator at the core.
Click to expand...

Similia I wonder if you have a link to a thread or section which has the details like those you gave above up to 10? I would find that very helpful.

Fudge, I agree with you that originally everything was just made up, that is why I dont always follow suggested meanings, but use the images themselves to inform me.

Love Fluffy
xx
 

star-lover

in astrology the aspects meanings come from numerology - dont know who invented numerology, think the arabs and greeks had something to do with it

i think the music of math in life is quite reliable

for scenic decks i think going by the images is good enough

i have been given the tarot of dreams as a present last xmas - each card has a planet in sign notation on it - i dont know if its the same as the golden dawn references but it sure helps me (because i know some of astrology) to add to the meanings
 
anyone on facebook? Manifestation using tarot