The Lovers: love or choices?

[katarzyna]

I wanted to re-open a discussion about The Lovers in relationship readings. I know the card is not only about romantic relationships, but very often about choices.

When I google, I tend to find a more traditional meaning for The Lovers when interpreted in a relationship reading, especially when in the outcome position (love, sensuality, a good sex life, closeness, a bond).

But when I've searched past discussions here, many of you seemed to think that The Lovers is ALWAYS about a choice needed to be made, and never depicts a happy or sensual relationship. Which strikes me as odd...I think it has to at least be considered as one of the meanings of the card.

Although I'm not well versed in tarot and tend to lay out spreads only occasionally, I remember a relationship a couple years ago when The Lovers kept coming up again and again when I asked what it is that's distancing my partner from me, and I interpreted as an affair -- and I was right. Obviously any single card can have many different readings in different situations, positions, etc.

But because there is so much literature about The Lovers depicting a happy relationship with a good sex life and a strong bond, and because visually the card seems to point to this as well, it has to be the case at least some of the time, depending on other cards and its position, as well as the individual's situation.

What's been your experience with The Lovers?

 

[Richard]

In the Marseille, The Lover card superficially may appear to be about a man making a choice between two women. I think of it as an older woman giving a young couple words of wisdom about marriage. Of course, Cupid, hovering above, can trump any attempt by Wisdom to influence matters of love.

In Rider-Waite, The Lovers is Gemini, which may pertain to the soul-mate concept. The card is not really about choices, although the Nachash snake on the Tree of Knowledge may suggest the choice of whether or not to eat the Forbidden Fruit. (Fortunately, the right decision was made. Otherwise we would still be leading an animal-like existence, devoid of human self-consciousness. These mythological themes are merely metaphors, of course.) However, The Lovers as Choice is dear to the hearts of Tarot readers, and so it shall remain, regardless of the fact that this is not the meaning intended by the deck's creator. (See The Lovers section in Waite's The Pictorial Key to the Tarot.)

 

[Grizabella]

I wanted to re-open a discussion about The Lovers in relationship readings. I know the card is not only about romantic relationships, but very often about choices.

When I google, I tend to find a more traditional meaning for The Lovers when interpreted in a relationship reading, especially when in the outcome position (love, sensuality, a good sex life, closeness, a bond).

But when I've searched past discussions here, many of you seemed to think that The Lovers is ALWAYS about a choice needed to be made, and never depicts a happy or sensual relationship. Which strikes me as odd...I think it has to at least be considered as one of the meanings of the card.

Although I'm not well versed in tarot and tend to lay out spreads only occasionally, I remember a relationship a couple years ago when The Lovers kept coming up again and again when I asked what it is that's distancing my partner from me, and I interpreted as an affair -- and I was right. Obviously any single card can have many different readings in different situations, positions, etc.

But because there is so much literature about The Lovers depicting a happy relationship with a good sex life and a strong bond, and because visually the card seems to point to this as well, it has to be the case at least some of the time, depending on other cards and its position, as well as the individual's situation.

What's been your experience with The Lovers?

I was married to a Gemini guy and he was an A#1 womanizer. I'm sure not all Gemini's are, but he sure was. And he was very temperamental and changeable, too, just like two people in one body.

Wouldn't it be nice if there were one card----the Lovers----that would say, "Cha-ching, bling, bling! Soulmate here! Your problems are over. Happily ever after, off into the sunset----etc."? But that isn't what I've seen the Lovers indicate. More often it does turn out that it's a choice that's being made in a relationship, and a foreshadowing that all probably won't be peaches and cream if it does involve love.

I think many people, though, do want the Lovers to mean soulmate type stuff and that's why you see references that way when you Google. It's the same mindset and reasoning that wants the Death card to mean anything except actual death or the Devil to mean fabulous naughty sex or the Tower to mean a mind-blowing orgasm. Tarot reflects life, though, and in life, death, lightning strikes and shocks and evil do exist so we have to accept that and read what the cards really say, not what we wish they said.

I don't use Marseilles. I do use RWS and those patterned after it, but still find that what I said above is true, similar to the Marseilles interpretation.

 

[katarzyna]

I'm not sure it's fair to say that seeing The Lovers as positive is always just wishful thinking, as many of the interpretations written on the internet are done collaboratively by professionals and expert readers. You really think it can't, well, depend on the situation?

 

[wind]

Tarot reflects life, though, and in life, death, lightning strikes and shocks and evil do exist so we have to accept that and read what the cards really say, not what we wish they said.

Absolutely, tarot reflects life and part of life is also LOVE
I am not in favour in seeing cards in the way we want to see them, but trying to squeeze in a negative meaning, just to be so 'realistic', is also forcing something.

Why should there not be a card about LOVE? If we are plain and straightforward about Death, Devil and Tower, why not be straightforward with LOVERS? The meaning of the word is very clear, in fact

I have never seen Lovers as choice, it has never come up in this sense. For me it was about connection, relation, communcation. Also, as a card of Gemini - well, I am a professional astrologer and I have never heard of Gemini anything to do with choice. It is about seeking the other half.

Lovers is about love - but love is NOT emotion nor attachment. It is a state of acceptance and feeling the connection. Which can manifest in many ways.

 

[Grizabella]

Well, obviously, when the name of the card is "Lovers" it does have to do with love. But my point is that it's not necessarily a card meaning soulmate love, period. It's also about choice, and can be about many other facets of love and loving relationships including love triangles and choices between two people both negative and positive.

As for Gemini, what I commented was that I'd been married to a Gemini who was a Dr. Jekyl/ Mr. Hyde womanizer. I didn't say all Gemini's are like that.

I don't try to "squeeze in negative meanings just to be realistic". Negative meanings simply do exist. I didn't invent that idea or make it up. It's a fact of life and it's a fact in Tarot. I don't see all negatives, if that's what you insinuate. I'm simply pointing out that, in this discussion, there are meanings that aren't all rosy and romantic. Depending on the reading and surrounding cards, I'll get either positive or negative meanings for any card. None of them are all good or all bad.

I still think people do tend to have some wishful thinking around the Lovers card. We're all human, aren't we, and one of our greatest needs is love and the validation of someone who loves us. If there were one card that was a shoe-in for Love and happily ever after, that would be fantastic. But it's not that simple.

 

[Richard]

I don't think the Waite Lovers necessarily indicates love between two people (although that is not ruled out). As is well-known, Waite was not big on divination, and the primary esoteric meanings of the cards pertain to psychic events within the individual, not interactions between people. The Lovers is more about healing the split between the male and female aspects of a person. For a man it would be reintegrating the inner woman (the anima, an entity in the unconscious) into consciousness. This is the esoteric meaning of the Quest for the Holy Grail. The sacred vessel is the feminine aspect of the self. Parsifal must learn to experience compassion in order to merit his hereditary right to the Kingship of the Grail. Of course, for a woman the gender roles are reversed, but the end result is the same - wholeness. The Lovers for a woman refers to the incorporation of the unconscious masculine animus components into the conscious self.

Exoterically, a love relationship between two people is symbolic of the transcending of opposites within the individual. It may be a good thing, or not so good, but there is a drive toward oneness, perhaps a joining of the two individuals physically, in copulation, and (hopefully) some sort of spiritual unity as well. The Lovers may indicate a love affair, but unfortunately it may be incomplete or temporary or even destructive. As in so many aspects of human life, choices are involved, but choice is not the exclusive province of The Lovers card.

Just my 2¢ worth.

 

[Chiriku]

Fruitful discussion here

"Lovers as 'Choice' [and duality]" reader here.

However, The Lovers as Choice is dear to the hearts of Tarot readers, and so it shall remain, regardless of the fact that this is not the meaning intended by the deck's creator. (See The Lovers section in Waite's The Pictorial Key to the Tarot.)

Right you are--even people who use the Golden Dawn and post-GD decks (such as I) often (knowingly and consciously) still hold to the Marseilles tradition for this card.

I'll tell you why in my case: in a Golden Dawn-based deck, there is always at least a card or two three in the Minors that have come to encompass the various shades of relationships, love and sex. The RWS Two of Cups is the most obvious, but there are others (like 4 of Wands for engagement, marriage or other family-based celebration; 10 of Cups for happy domestic life; etc.)

However, to play Devil's Advocate, the original poster's point about why SHOULDN'T there be a flat-out Love card in the Majors (the so-called archetype cards) still holds true. These are, after all, archetypes. ETA: and The Lover is among the biggest human archetypes. And many people do, after all, use Majors-only decks, which knocks the Minors out of the running for providing us with "love."

All I can say to the OP is in my opinion, love almost always is a choice--regardless of what some say about "we can't choose whom we love." We can open our eyes to certain things about our would-be lover that might put the brakes on our love. We can choose to spend time with or not spend time with a person in the getting-to-know you stage. Even those entering an arranged marriage have a choice in terms of their mental receptivity to the other person, toward working toward love.

I think many people, though, do want the Lovers to mean soulmate type stuff and that's why you see references that way when you Google

Well, obviously, when the name of the card is "Lovers" it does have to do with love. But my point is that it's not necessarily a card meaning soulmate love, period. It's also about choice, and can be about many other facets of love and loving relationships including love triangles and choices between two people both negative and positive.

I agree with all these points.

 

[Chiriku]

I don't think the Waite Lovers necessarily indicates love between two people (although that is not ruled out). As is well-known, Waite was not big on divination, and the primary esoteric meanings of the cards pertain to psychic events within the individual, not interactions between people. The Lovers is more about healing the split between the male and female aspects of a person. For a man it would be reintegrating the inner woman (the anima, an entity in the unconscious) into consciousness. This is the esoteric meaning of the Quest for the Holy Grail. The sacred vessel is the feminine aspect of the self. Parsifal must learn to experience compassion in order to merit his hereditary right to the Kingship of the Grail. Of course, for a woman the gender roles are reversed, but the end result is the same - wholeness. The Lovers for a woman refers to the incorporation of the unconscious masculine animus components into the conscious self.

Exoterically, a love relationship between two people is symbolic of the transcending of opposites within the individual. It may be a good thing, or not so good, but there is a drive toward oneness, perhaps a joining of the two individuals physically, in copulation, and (hopefully) some sort of spiritual unity as well. The Lovers may indicate a love affair, but unfortunately it may be incomplete or temporary or even destructive. As in so many aspects of human life, choices are involved, but choice is not the exclusive province of The Lovers card.

Just my 2¢ worth.

It was more than 2 cents, and gratifyingly so.

Your post here brings up another point I want to point out to the OP: I am of the school in which Major Arcana are less about events and people and more about larger forces at work in the querent's life at the moment or for the next period or stage of their life. As such, "a love affair" or "a relationship" fits less with my reading style than with an alert towards divergent paths from which to choose or towards the esoteric dualism and integration described by LRichard, above.

Again, in my reading style, I have the Minors to account for the everyday workings of relationships, love affairs, love interests, etc.

 

[Richard]

It was more than 2 cents, and gratifyingly so.

Your post here brings up another point I want to point out to the OP: I am of the school in which Major Arcana are less about events and people and more about larger forces at work in the querent's life at the moment or for the next period or stage of their life. As such, "a love affair" or "a relationship" fits less with my reading style than with an alert towards divergent paths from which to choose or towards the esoteric dualism and integration described by LRichard, above.

Again, in my reading style, I have the Minors to account for the everyday workings of relationships, love affairs, love interests, etc.

Thank you for the kind words.

Your approach to the Majors and Minors is essentially the same as that of Rachel Pollack. Quoting from page 146 of Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom: "The Major cards depict archetypal forces rather than real people.......But the Minor cards show events of life as people actually live it." That's the way I see it too.