Doubts about DuQuette?

[Zephyros]

I know the DuQuette book has been recommended as the beginner book for the Thoth, but the more I study, the more glaring the inconsistencies sometimes are, the lack of cohesion in a few entries, and skirting of issues in others. Indeed, in a few entries it almost seems as if he put up blinds similar to Waite's! What was my primary textbook a year ago, is now secondary.

Has anyone noticed this? Is it even fair to judge it in this way?

 

[Aeon418]

Is it even fair to judge it in this way?

Maybe. Maybe not. But when I hear people being overly critical or expecting too much from DuQuette I begin to wonder if they actually read the first chapter. In particular the final paragraph. From the first time I read it I was prepared to cut the guy some slack, and still am. Shortcomings aside I've yet to see another Thoth-intro book that beats Lon's offering.

I don't recall anything misleading or 'blinded' in the book. Sure he skirts around some bits that might touch on O.T.O. sex magick practices. But what do you expect him to do? Break his 'sworn oaths' just to satisfy your intellectual curiosity!

 

[Zephyros]

Yes, you're right, I guess I just needed a little reprimand, as an truant is apt to need at times. I do hold him in the highest esteem and even owe him a debt of gratitude, for without him I would never have gotten this far (not that I would compliment myself on getting very far, as I really haven't).

ETA: Good to see you back, by the way!

 

[Aeon418]

I think the primary value of Lon's book is that it helps people reach a level where they feel confident enough to tackle Crowley's, Book of Thoth. That's where the real action is. And to his credit, Lon basically says the same thing. His book is intended to get the new reader 'up to speed' and ready for the real thing. After reading Lon you're not going to understand everything Crowley says, but you're not going to be completely lost either. In fact a number of people on this forum have described how Crowley suddenly became accessible after they read Lon's book. In my opinion that's a win.

 

[Abrac]

I'd say it's the book for beginners right now. But is there still room for something better? Definitely yes.

 

[Aeon418]

I'd say it's the book for beginners right now. But is there still room for something better? Definitely yes.

I agree. Any book that gets a reader to stand on their own two feet and encourages research of primary source material is a shoe-in as far as I'm concerned. Maybe someone could do a better job than Lon did.

But the trouble with many modern books is that better = spoon feeding. Why bother going to the source when you can get someone else to dumb it down and do it all for you?

Open wide. There's a train coming. Woooo-woooo.

 

[sworm09]

I know the DuQuette book has been recommended as the beginner book for the Thoth, but the more I study, the more glaring the inconsistencies sometimes are, the lack of cohesion in a few entries, and skirting of issues in others. Indeed, in a few entries it almost seems as if he put up blinds similar to Waite's! What was my primary textbook a year ago, is now secondary.

Has anyone noticed this? Is it even fair to judge it in this way?

Someone else seems to have noticed this. I personally don't like DuQuette's book too much, because you don't really...learn anything from it. DuQuette, as a member of the O.T.O seems to have purposefully left ALOT of information on the symbolism out of his book. He talks very little about the cards themselves actually. Sometimes he actually just rambles. Don't get me wrong, Crowley himself rambles too, but at least you learn a few things along the way. DuQuette's book is a good introduction for those that are completely new to Western Occultism, but I would go straight to the Book of Thoth for real information on the deck. I'm a beginner too, I read DuQuette's book all the way through along with a few other books, but I read the Book of Thoth one time. It was surely confusing, but I learned alot about the cards. Start with the Book of Thoth THEN experiment with other literature on the Thoth. That's my opinion at least.

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

I guess I'm old school. I don't own any other book about the Thoth Tarot besides the Book of Thoth. The only other book I ever bought on Thoth was Gerd Ziegler's book, in 1986 - I looked at it once, and I haven't seen it since.

If something in The Book of Thoth doesn't make sense, go to Crowley's sources, not to later interpreters. For the most part, that includes basic Golden Dawn doctrine and rituals, as well as Crowley's own writings. Almost everything you need to understand what Crowley means is actually available online right now. It was a lot harder in the 1980s, I'm sure you can imagine. But maybe that difficulty of access, finding sources, was a blessing in disguise. It forced one to actually read, and read, and reread, and digest, the writings. Chew that meat, chew through the gristle and gnaw on the occasional bone fragment, suck out the marrow. That's what being alone with the Book of Thoth forces you to do.

If you don't understand it, figure it out. Take your time. It's worth it. You'll learn a lot in the process of trying to figure out how to figure it out.

Everybody wants pabulum today, somebody who has simplified things for them. They want it quick, they want it NOW. But part of the point of learning the slow way is that the learning process itself is informative - YOU change as YOU figure out for YOURSELF what it means. You have to dig, you have to search, you have to think, you have to actually WORK to "get it."

My advice is to put aside every other book, and read Crowley and Crowley's sources, that's all. And, as he says, use the cards themselves. He wasn't using the Thoth Tarot, of course. This deck is what was in his mind when he was using a TdM or Wirth. Proper study of Tarot in the old occultist way, the way Crowley learned it, will give you one in your mind too.

 

[sworm09]

I guess I'm old school. I don't own any other book about the Thoth Tarot besides the Book of Thoth. The only other book I ever bought on Thoth was Gerd Ziegler's book, in 1986 - I looked at it once, and I haven't seen it since.

If something in The Book of Thoth doesn't make sense, go to Crowley's sources, not to later interpreters. For the most part, that includes basic Golden Dawn doctrine and rituals, as well as Crowley's own writings. Almost everything you need to understand what Crowley means is actually available online right now. It was a lot harder in the 1980s, I'm sure you can imagine. But maybe that difficulty of access, finding sources, was a blessing in disguise. It forced one to actually read, and read, and reread, and digest, the writings. Chew that meat, chew through the gristle and gnaw on the occasional bone fragment, suck out the marrow. That's what being alone with the Book of Thoth forces you to do.

If you don't understand it, figure it out. Take your time. It's worth it. You'll learn a lot in the process of trying to figure out how to figure it out.

Everybody wants pabulum today, somebody who has simplified things for them. They want it quick, they want it NOW. But part of the point of learning the slow way is that the learning process itself is informative - YOU change as YOU figure out for YOURSELF what it means. You have to dig, you have to search, you have to think, you have to actually WORK to "get it."

My advice is to put aside every other book, and read Crowley and Crowley's sources, that's all. And, as he says, use the cards themselves. He wasn't using the Thoth Tarot, of course. This deck is what was in his mind when he was using a TdM or Wirth. Proper study of Tarot in the old occultist way, the way Crowley learned it, will give you one in your mind too.

I agree! Many beginners pick up the Thoth (or Liber T) and get angry with it because they can't understand it immediately. Take your time! Read the Book of Thoth. It's interesting that the creator of the deck, Crowley himself, even admitted that he didn't fully understand what some of the trumps meant. That says something about how you should learn from the cards themselves.

 

[Aeon418]

It's interesting that the creator of the deck, Crowley himself, even admitted that he didn't fully understand what some of the trumps meant.

Although it should be pointed out that Crowley wasn't talking about something as trivial as divinatory meanings. It is the cards meaning within the scheme of initiation that he was refering to.