The Thoth tarot and Astrology

[Zephyros]

... systems are not direct overlays, but speak to important relationships that are informative. Am I getting warm?

Nine of Pentacles, Venus / Virgo, is not really saying "the planet of Venus in the sign of Virgo." Am I starting to get that part right?

In a way, yes. That in itself is a good example. The feminine, loving virtues of Venus coupled with the female potential of Virgo (see the Hermit) together with the middle piller stability of Yesod (the sexual organ) attributed to the feminine Moon. With so many birthing associations, we get Gain, "It purrs with satisfaction at having harvested what it sowed; it rubs its hands and sits at ease. As will be understood from the consideration of the Tens, there is no reaction against satisfaction as there is in the other three suits. One becomes more and more stolid, and feels that "everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds". The final step before full manifestation in the Ten of Discs.

My guess is that there isn't anything definitive, though. One can play endless mental and emotional gymnastics with these things, which is probably what they are there for.

 

[Richard]

.......Nine of Pentacles, Venus / Virgo, is not really saying "the planet of Venus in the sign of Virgo." Am I starting to get that part right?

Yes, it simply means that the card is characterized by the influences which prevail when Venus is in Virgo. You can google Venus in Virgo and come up with all sorts of interesting goodies about what goes on when Venus is in Virgo and may suggest additional meanings for the card.

Here is another example. The Three of Wands is the decan of Sun in Aries. This second decan of Aries is a convenient slot into which the card may go. It means that the Three of Wands indicates a situation or state which is characterized by Sun in Aries. Actually, the Sun is (theoretically) in Aries for 30°, which encompasses three 10° decans, so 'Sun in Aries' does not literally define a single decan.

It may be helpful to think of the astrological descriptions of the decans as metaphors for the sorts of things one might expect when that particular card appears.

 

[Terrapin]

yes it is a nice little package ... until one gets to that doubled up Mars.

Have you you tried the variant approach where the planet of the first decan of a sign is the ruling planet of that sign, the planet of the second decan of the sign is the ruling planet of the next sign of that element and the third decan planet the ruling planet of the last sign of the element?

I keep wanting to plot it out and observe the different implication of these new planetary attributions (not the 'Chaldean order') in relation to card titles but I keep getting diverted by pressing annoying mundane issues

The planetary attributions in the Tarot of the Holy Light follow what you described above. Interestingly, the card meanings don't seem to be altered very much I think because Planet X in sign Y can mean a variety of things. It seems flexible.

 

[ravenest]

My guess is that there isn't anything definitive, though. One can play endless mental and emotional gymnastics with these things, which is probably what they are there for.

.... the expansion of the field of perception of the mind and the greater balancing of the forces of the psyche.

 

[ravenest]

The planetary attributions in the Tarot of the Holy Light follow what you described above. Interestingly, the card meanings don't seem to be altered very much I think because Planet X in sign Y can mean a variety of things. It seems flexible.

Oh, for sure. I wanted to do it in relation to Thoth and in relation to its specific titles and AC's descriptions. Also there might be deeper connections in there with this system.

 

[ravenest]

Nine of Pentacles, Venus / Virgo, is not really saying "the planet of Venus in the sign of Virgo." Am I starting to get that part right?

Maybe ... some still seem to think it is 'Venus IN Virgo' ... I am sure the majority think that way ... I did for years. Others seem to be saying it isn't like that but describes a process that gives the same result ??? which in my book is the same thing - whatever.

Who was it that first started annoting the decans with little planetary symbols anyway ? (They could have used A1, A2, A3, T1, T2 and so on ). I know the older systems used the influence of stars and sometimes described that influence by combining planets (the nature of star x is that of Jupiter and Saturn, etc.).

So we get to the level of splitting hairs; is saying Decan X is like Venus in Virgo any different from saying Decan x has the same energy as Venus in Virgo? For most it wont matter.

Until one digs into the substructure and starts trying to find some reason or system for the attributions and why certain cards are said to have a certain energy.

For some, the astrology printed on the card does not match the title or energy of the card ... if that disturbs one or one just wants to 'get to the bottom of it' an examination of the decan and the energy of the stars or asterisms that make up that decan brings clarity ... more so than the astrology of the card. (see post # 9 )

In some cases, the star placements / decan and the astrology seem to be in easy sync with each other.

So really it doesn't matter, for a reading, its just IMO if you want to put it under a microscope and start dissecting it.

I mean ... some people don't even care what is shown on the card and just go along with their own meaning.

I suppose it is all a mechanical and historical curiosity ?

 

[Richard]

It's perfectly alright to say that the Nine of Pentacles is Venus in Virgo, but then why call it a decan, which is a 10° segment of the ecliptic? This is not splitting hairs, it is just plain incorrect to imply that the 2nd decan of Virgo means that the planet Venus is in the constellation Virgo. I don't give a rat's ass about splitting hairs. I do care about the ordinary literal sense of technical words and expressions such as "decan" or "Venus in Virgo." As long as it is understood that these terms are being used metaphorically, everything is cool.

 

[ravenest]

It's perfectly alright to say that the Nine of Pentacles is Venus in Virgo, but then why call it a decan, which is a 10° segment of the ecliptic? This is not splitting hairs, it is just plain incorrect to imply that the 2nd decan of Virgo means that the planet Venus is in the constellation Virgo.

That's exactly my point ... it IS incorrect to imply that the 2nd decan of Virgo means that the planet Venus is in the constellation (or sign) of Virgo. The splitting of hairs is what most say to me when it is pointed out. I usually get; "same thing", "what's the difference" or "it wont effect my reading so what does it matter" ... many people (not you obviously) think it is splitting hairs and too complex to think about and just go with 'Venus in Virgo.'

I don't give a rat's ass about splitting hairs. I do care about the ordinary literal sense of technical words and expressions such as "decan" or "Venus in Virgo." As long as it is understood that these terms are being used metaphorically, everything is cool.

Well, you don't care much because a rats arse is a very small little thing again, the splitting hairs is what a lot of people think this is. I want to get beyond the metaphorical and get to .... well, I would just be repeating what I wrote previously in post #9 about the stella makeup of a decan and where a cards energy might come from or where the description of a minors influence may have originated (in a decan not a sign) ... so I wont repeat it..

 

[Richard]

.......Well, you don't care much because a rats arse is a very small little thing again, the splitting hairs is what a lot of people think this is. I want to get beyond the metaphorical and get to .... well, I would just be repeating what I wrote previously in post #9 about the stella makeup of a decan and where a cards energy might come from or where the description of a minors influence may have originated (in a decan not a sign) ... so I wont repeat it..

I understand where you are coming from. It is of interest to me too.

 

[treedog]

I want to get beyond the metaphorical and get to .... well, I would just be repeating what I wrote previously in post #9 about the stella makeup of a decan and where a cards energy might come from or where the description of a minors influence may have originated (in a decan not a sign) ....

After reading post #9 and doing a drive by on http://www.constellationsofwords.com, I have several ideas for myself about all this: 1) I am intellectually comforted that there is reason and purpose behind the GD astrological correspondences (decans and all), 2) The truth really is out there, or collectively, in here, and 3) I may never have the desire to study the stars at the level neccessary to really understand where a minor's influence may have originated, and that's okay.

But I like things that make sense, and for once, whether I fully understand it or not, I now have an idea that the underlying system was not as arbitrary as many would have it. I can look at the cards the way I look at the night sky and feel humbled by the grand scheme of which I know only a little, but which opperates just fine anyway.