The Thoth tarot and Astrology

faery dust*

When a beginner reader (such as myself) embarks on her journey of learning the secrets of the Thoth tarot, one realizes the need to have a basic understanding of astrology. With the thoth tarot deck, the formula that creates each cards is very apparent. Planets, zodiac signs combine with elements and what not to create meaning for each card. And the bits of astrology are often left out in books (such as Duquette's which I have)

I was wondering if there was a thread on this forum, which outlined the basics of astrology that are the requisites of a deeper understanding of the thoth.

If there isn't, could we please please start one?

Thanks so much.
 

Zephyros

I myself have very little knowledge of astrology, and base myself on Qabalah. When considering the astrological attributions, I mostly read their stories, and it does work. The attributions on the cards serve less to give astrological information, but more semantic connections, and they do this very well. For example, Sun in Ares could refer to someone born in February/April, but it works better if you consider the Sun energizing (as it does with all signs, astrologically) the Ram, phallic, single minded, strong, willful yet in balance, because it isn't at war with anyone. This gives us Virtue, the Three of Wands, appreciation of one's inherent power, etc.

Once you get into the spirit of looking at things from that perspective, you begin to pick up connections between cards where they were not apparent before. For example, Taurus attributed to the Hierophant is ruled by Venus, but the Moon is exalted in it. Cancer attributed to the Chariot is ruled by the Moon, and the Priestess is attributed to the Moon. So there is a connection between the ideas these cards put forward. What those connections are is probably up to you to decypher. It may seem confusing, especially the way I'm explaining it, but it gets easier. You can find connections between the Majors and the Minors (the Three of Wands could be thought of as the Sun card shining on the Emperor card)... the possibilities are endless, really. Just jump in, it'll all be clearer in time.
 

ravenest

Well, I was not going to bring that up for a beginner. But since it has been bought up;

It appears there are two understandings here; 1, is that the planet and sign symbol on the card is significant in representing modern concepts of astrology (as in Crowley's writings on the cards and astrology). 2, There are indications that it does not represent that at all (or it ALSO represents something else); the old concept in astrology of a decan (not the modern decan concept).

This is where the above reference to Scions post comes in.

And also that the Thoth astrology is not a tropical system but a sidereal system; i.e. based on the actual position of stars and association of some cards to asterisms and constellations NOT on the ecliptic. As is the case in some other areas, Crowley seems to write one way in the text (tropical astrology) but includes tables and charts (with no explanation) that seem to suggest the opposite.

Lifted and pasted G.D. material? Did the G.D. do the same; lifted and pasted ?

So a card (minor) really needs to be examined by the formula;

Kabbalah / Tree of Life (number) x Kabbalah / 4 worlds (Elementary Theory) x Planet in Constellation (tropical astrology) x decan placement (sidereal astrology) = meaning.

I don't agree with the 3rd part of the equation but everyone seems to do it, including the creator of the deck so.... :shrug:

But a full examination (decan) might help you to get a meaning where a tropical astrological one won’t. Sometimes a cards meaning seems unclear considering number, suit planet and sign; all seem well placed yet the meaning seems harsh. When one examines the decan and goes to a star list in that decan and examines the (old) influence the stars have in that decan, in some cases it overrides the planetary association and explains the meaning a lot clearer.

The planets are just an association with the decan; in this view it is not the same as a planet in a sign ... it is not a planet is in a sign but the planet indicates which one of the 3 decans in that constellation is being used.

The order that these planets are attached to the decans is the 'Chaldean' order of the planets but they can be associated another way which does make a lot of sense astrologically, i.e. by rulership (the first decan of a sign is associated with the planet that rules that sign, the second decan of that sign is associated with the planet that rules the next sign of that same element, the third decan by the planet that rules the last sign of that element).

An interesting exercise is to work out the new planets (in that system) and attribute them to the card and see if that gives a clearer association with the meaning. (I started but 'life' got in the way .... have to finish that project when I get a chance).

Anyway ... most people just use the normal modern tropical associations and do quite well.
 

Zephyros

I see I have a lot or work to do. I have a few more days for a card I'm working on now, then I'm taking a break to learn the basics of astrology, in preparation for the Opening of the Key, which uses decans, houses and signs as important parts of it.
 

Spiffo

The various threads on here are most authoritative but can be a bit bewildering for a beginner (like me) so I found a couple of good sites for some basic introductory information on Tarot & Astrology. They helped me, they may help you.

See

http://taroteon.com/tarot-tutorial/showing-the-structure-behind-the-astrological-associations/

and

Raven's site has a lot for food for thought ... check out his Astrology section!

http://www.corax.com/tarot/

XpS

When a beginner reader (such as myself) embarks on her journey of learning the secrets of the Thoth tarot, one realizes the need to have a basic understanding of astrology. With the thoth tarot deck, the formula that creates each cards is very apparent. Planets, zodiac signs combine with elements and what not to create meaning for each card. And the bits of astrology are often left out in books (such as Duquette's which I have)

I was wondering if there was a thread on this forum, which outlined the basics of astrology that are the requisites of a deeper understanding of the thoth.

If there isn't, could we please please start one?

Thanks so much.
 

Zephyros

I must admit I know nothing about astrology, other than a few things here and there, but I've decided to make a go of it, since my "literary" method I used until now may be good for individual cards, but not for making broader connections, and especially for the OOTK. My method when studying Qabalah was to start from the outside in, and learn the theory first and then in practice through Tarot.

Would this be a good idea with astrology as well? I'm starting to study "Astrology for Dummies" with the assumption that once I know the "basic language" I'll be able to take it from there (even though it may not be the "right" kind of astrology). The threads posted here, although very interesting, go completely over my head.
 

ravenest

I am an astrological dummy.

here is how I am trying to get better. make charts or tables(download, put in a file or whatever) of the basic principles;

the influences of the planets, signs, houses and aspects. (and a reference source for greater detail - 'constellation of words' is a great site for historical and recent views on constellations and stars and has tables and resources for cross-reference)

A table that shows rulership fall detriment etc.
A table that shows the decans; mine has 3; Agrippa, Ibn Ezra, Picatrix. (try The Decans in Astrology Benjamin Dykes via google).

Then I go on First basic construction principles (sun in sign, sun/moon compatibility, chart rulership, etc. ...later I add the decans and significant star placements) but that is more for casting a natal horoscope and it seems you want the astro knowledge for the cards so this bit might not be needed.

e.g. here are some extracts from student's correspondence (I have left out their questions and only show my answers) re 5 swords (they were confused as to why 'Venus in Aquarius' = Defeat.)

This card and that title with the associated astrology IS going to be difficult.
If we take the general formular; i.e.

Meaning = number (sephiroth) x suit (world) x planet/sign it is going to be difficult. We need the full formular of Meaning = number (sephiroth) x suit (world) x planet/sign x Decan.

I suspect ‘something in the sky’ at 10 degrees Aquarius. And also our familiar dynamic (which we encountered before), the Mars (being a 5) / Venus relationship.

Generally, this dynamic occurring in Aquarius doesn’t seem hopeful. Aquarius, being visionary and aspiring … is also very ‘out-there’ and needs good grounding. Venus doesn’t do this for Aquarius. Mars supplies lots of energy in the five but it really needs to be able to go somewhere and be grounded in action, not vision. Aquarius gives the vision, Mars supplies the action but the grounding seems absent, and hence defeat looms. Crowley seems to agree: “ … as Venus here rules Aquarius, weakness rather than excess of strength” (from Mars) “seems the cause of disaster.” Crowley also talks about the good qualities of the intellect (Swords and Aquarius) being “enfeebled by sentiment” (Venus) … it’s too passive for Aquarius, although the 5 provides action, it isn’t directed enough, as explained above.

Read the section in Thoth on the Four Fives, how the 5 disrupts the stability that previously existed, so that is there as well. In this card we have disrupted stability with no outlet for it to restructure and manifest in something. These ‘abortive births’ or disruptions happen often. Some relate them to Qlippothic realms and the ‘lower astral’ level. Hence the imagery on the card; pentagram, reversed, somewhat sinister. Wang says this card is the most destructive in the deck. He takes the same stance as I do here with Mars and Venus …. Worth a read … Oh, I am not sure you have it? I will fetch it and make a quick quote for you …

“ A relationship has already been noted between the Sword of Geburah and the Rose of Venus which is also the Rose of the Rose Cross. They are closely related energies, Mars being the consort of Venus in mythology.”

So; let’s do the usual and examine the planet closely and then the sign and then examine the decan … in this case I still think we might have to go further and try to find why the decan gives such an energy here.

Venus ( ) is the ruling planet of Taurus and Libra and is exalted in Pisces. In roman mythology, Venus is the goddess of love and beauty, famous for the passions she could stir among the gods. Her cults may represent the religiously legitimate charm and seduction of the divine by mortals, in contrast to the formal, contractual relations between most members of Rome's official pantheon and the state, and the unofficial, illicit manipulation of divine forces through magic. The ambivalence of her function is suggested in the etymological relationship of the root *venes- with Latin venenum (poison, venom), in the sense of "a charm, magic philtre". etc. etc. (edited due to length)

Also Venus has no rulership, dignity, detriment, exaltation nor fall in Aquarius so that is not significant (except as it relates to the comments about the weakness of the planetary energy here mentioned above).

(... follows a long analysis on Aquarius from Hapi In ancient Egypt to the present)

Here we have a hint of the discrepancy, i.e. if Aquarius has such a positive energy why is 5 swords, attribute to Aquarius = ‘Defeat’ ? Let us ignore Venus for a moment and look at this decan of Aquarius; the 1st Decan of the 3 cards attributed to Aquarius. Note that the next Aquarius card, which is the next card in deck sequence and the next decan, seems the opposite of this card … and that is not JUST because of the number and the planet being different (although significant).

Note that the first hint of a different energy of Aquarius (in this little study) is an ancient correspondence reflected in the early Arabic gnosis, which was inherited from the schools of Alexandrian Syncretism ( the Great Library of Alexandria in Egypt) and held the knowledge of Chaldeans, Babylonians, Egyptians, Zoroastrians, Magi, etc. It is an older and more ancient system than modern astrology and that is what the G.D. was trying to emulate (note I say ‘emulate’ they dont appear to have had it fully; nowadays with our resources and all the further research done in many fields we may, actually ourselves, now have access to deeper mysteries and information than them.  . )

I will get back to this difference in decans shortly; but to continue with this rather large look at Aquarius: ]

In Babylonia it was associated with the 11th month Shabatu, the Curse of Rain, January-February; and the Epic ofCreation has an account of the Deluge in its 11th book, corresponding to this the 11th constellation; each of its other books numerically coinciding with the other zodiacal signs. In that country its Urn seems to have been known as Gu, a Water-jar overflowing, the Akkadian Ku-ur-ku, the Seatof the Flowing Waters; and it also was Ramman or Rammanu, the God of theStorm, the still earlier Imma, shown pouring water from a vase,

[ Again … going back to an earlier astro-mythology we find a harsher influence being attributed to Aquarius. ]

Some of the minor stars of Aquarius, — iota, lambda, sigma, and theta, — with others of {Page 48} Capricornus and Pisces, formed the asterism LuyPeih Chin, the Camp with Entrenched Walls.
[ Another hint! Here it starts mentioning not just the constellation but individual stars that make up the constellation … and those stars have different energies and ‘reside’ in different parts of Aquarius (i.e. in different decans.]

Aquarius is not conspicuous, being chiefly marked by the stars gamma, zeta, eta, and pi, — the Urn, the familiar Y, — called by the Greeks Kalpe, Kalpis, Kalpeis, (water jar) and Situla, or Urna, by the Latins, Pliny making a distinct constellation of the latter, and by the line of fainter stars, lambda, phi, chi, psi, omega, and others indicating the water running down into the mouth of the Southern Fish, or, as it is occasionally drawn, uniting with the river Eridanus.

Now … lets look at the make up of some of the stars in Aquarius. First an out line of the decan approach I use:

Early measurements of the sky by Ancient Egyptians related to passage of time through the night and marking equalised segments of the sky in 10 degree lots. These were marked by significant asterisms (not constellations or single stars but related star clusters that seemed linked or associated) or /and significant single stars.

Specific stars had certain qualities and gave those qualities to a decan … the next decan might have another star in it that had the opposite qualities. Later as this system changed and melded with elements of Mesopotamian astrology and after with the Greek influence and the 12 house system gaining precedence each decans got made into signs by grouping three together; the stars and asterisms of 3 decans got melded into a sign.

As time went on and the system became more corrupted general energies were attributed to the sign and people forgot, and now even DENY that the stars themselves have, or even ever had, astrological significance. (And say I am a wacko for thinking so … so mainstream astrologers may not agree with all of this.)

Lets look at a few stars in Aquarius then:

Starting at the first star, 20 hours R. A. (Right Ascension - and note, here is a time measurement to locate it … as the Egyptians used) the beginning of Aquarius or the first decan; selecting some at random and going to ancient sources relating to the influence of individual stars;

This star, Albali, along with Ancha, are indicative of danger and can cause persecution and even death, but are also said to give good fortune. [Fixed Stars and Judicial Astrology, George Noonan, 1990, p.40.]

The astrological influences of the star Sadalsuud; According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Saturn and Mercury; to Simmonite, of Uranus; and, to Alvidas, of Uranus in sextile to the Sun. It is said to cause trouble and disgrace. [Robson]

The astrological influences of the star Ancha. This star along with Albali can cause danger and can cause persecution and even death, but are also said to give good fortune. [Fixed Stars and Judicial Astrology, George Noonan, 1990, p.40.]

The astrological influences of the star Sadalmelik. According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Saturn and Mercury; to Simmonite, of Saturn and Jupiter; and to Alvidas of Jupiter and Uranus in sextile to the Sun from Pisces and Taurus. It causes persecution, lawsuits, extreme and sudden destruction and the death penalty. [Robson*, p.200.]

These, to me, describe the title and imagery on the 5 swords quiet well.

Now, let’s move on:
The astrological influences of the star Sadalachbia. "The Lucky Star of Hidden Things". In horary it indicates the ability to discover that which is hidden or lost. 'The Lucky One for Hidden Things, or for Tent dwellers'; Abhbiyah is the plural of a word once common for a tent but also meaning a place of seclusion. It is said that, when the Sun rises conjunct this star, about 25th February, then all the worms and insects come out of their winter holes and tent dwellers can move to their Spring pasture-lands. That is the warmer climes of Arabia, of course, not London or New York. The meaning we find in this star is, as an indicator of the right time for making moves, entering upon new ventures, a likelihood of general success in enterprises if Sadachbia be well placed and aspected on the horoscope. [The Living Stars, Dr. Eric Morse, p.111.]

What happened!!!???? All of a sudden things got great!

What happened was; Sadalachiba is further along in Aquarius ( further in Right Ascension i.e. it rises over the horizon slightly later than the previous set of stars). And I would say it is in the next decan … and that star’s influence is what gives influence to the 6 of swords.

See how it works?

Now all the stuff about Venus is still valid … she is just operating in this sphere, that’s the bit to be remembered … NOT just Venus operating in a sign like Aquarius, but Venus in the first decan of Aquarius.

Again …. If it gets hard to nut out look at the decan.
And remember the formulae.
Meaning = number/sephiroth x suit/world x planet and sign x decan.
In this case the energy of the card just seems to be a downer … failure …. you lost dude … shit happens.

Some stars are nasty … as I said at the beginning … “I suspect ‘something in the sky’ at 10 degrees Aquarius.” Cant tell you why as a philosophical reason … life just is like that some times we have to lose and get trashed … balance to the good.

But it is interesting this thing about gnarly stars … its cross cultural, even for the same star; e.g. Looking for my Three Books of Occult Wisdom now … what does Cornelius Agrippa say about it again … ?

Here it is; Ch XXXI Of the Observation of the fixed stars, and of their nature.
(Annoted by Donald Tyson) “The Head of Algol in the 18th degree of Taurus …”
A nasty character indeed – cross-culturally; Tryson annotes: “Algol is a white variable star that brightens and dims, making it conspicuous in the northern heavens. The Arabs call it the Blinking Demon. The Hebrew’s named it Satan’s Head and Lilith, after the demon lover of Adam. The Chinese called it the Piled-up Corpses. It was everywhere regarded as violent, dangerous and highly unlucky.”

Occasionally it gets ‘angry’ and flares up red (at times of disaster and famine or war and ‘piled up corpses’ ?). Al Sufi described it as red when he observed it, and later described as red by an astronomer (in 1841 at Athens) named Schmidt.

That star is in the first decan of Taurus = 5 of pentacles (G.D.) “The Lord of Material Trouble”. It seems to explain it better than Mercury in Taurus.

Now to me this seems obvious … but apparently some cant see it ???
 

Zephyros

That was amazing ravenest!! I suppose interpreted Venus in Aquarius in a similar fashion, but a lot more simplistically. The love of Venus coupled with the sprightly rain of Aquarius doesn't hold a candle to Geburah in Yetzirah of Mars, and so their seemingly good influence is smothered by its turbulent power of instability. Semantically, this works.

Unfortunately I am at the stage where seemingly basic terminology like conjunct is incomprehensible to me, although in a few months time I hope it won't be. I suppose that like learning the names of the Sephiroth and the meanings of the letters by heart, the "toolbox" of the trade, I simply have to start to give myself contexts to work from. I don't actually know the sequence of the planets, the sequence of attribution to the cards and, oh, so many things, most of which I probably don't know that I don't know about!

Like I said, I am taking a break from the Thoth in the coming months and will concentrate on astrology and will begin to work more earnestly on magick through James Eshelman's book on the AA, coupled with Kraig's Modern Magick, the Ciceros' book on the GD, Regardie and anything else I can find. In the midst of all that, I hope to make at least first steps on the Goetia and Enochian. After a year and a half of studying Qabalah almost exclusively, I feel not only ready to branch out, but also ready for some variety. I'll still work on the Thoth, of course (being only halfway through) but less intensely. Not only do I love it so much, but it is inextricably connected to all the other disciplines and is a superior learning aid.

Seems like a lot, but I'm taking it easy.