rider waite deck--so negative

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Nov 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Lilliana	12 Nov 2001
Hi, I was wondering if anyone else finds the rider waite deck a tad negative? I 've been using it for several years now, and alot of the images seem to suggest general negativity. Maybe it's just the books I'm getting the interpretations from? It's not that I want a deck that's all sunshine and roses, but alot of the images are quite sinister when you really look at them. I really like the symbollism, but I think in a few cases it could have been executed in a different way, so you don't just look at a card and automatically think "oh jeeze" I'm seriously thinking about retiring my rider deck and getting something more upbeat. any opinions, thoughts? thanks, Lilliana

northsea	13 Nov 2001
What amazes me is how much influence Rider-Waite still exerts on tarot meanings after nearly a century. I find an anti-intellect bent in the Swords suit. Only four out of ten have clearly positive readings (upright or reversed). You're basically led to believe that thinking causes depression and ruin. Clear thinking can do just the opposite. It seems like Waite payed too much attention to the traditional medieval symbol swords, and not enough to astrological and elemental (air) aspects.

jmd	13 Nov 2001
It appears that Waite (or Coleman-Smith, who painted them) was very influenced not so much by the medieval symbolism of swords (which could also represent uprightness and royalty), but by Papus's book (Tarot of the Bohemians) in which he interprets this suit, following Gypsy connections he appears to have had, in quite a negative tone. The associations of swords with thinking and air wasn't clearly established at the time, and even in Waite's esoteric order wands were used for the element of air (as they were in the Golden Dawn). I would suggest... and this is a forum after all, so please correct me if you deem what I say to be incorrect, that Waite's 'negative' depictions of swords (1) IS negative, (2) is based on Papus, and (3) is not necessarily associated with thinking, the mind nor Air.

jmd	13 Nov 2001
PS This applies to one suit... I do not find the whole deck negative, but rather quite inspiring, even if I do not agree with his reversal of VIII and XI (following Golden Dawn), his depiction of XIII Death (because of the description of the Horse of Death in the Apocalypse), or his depiction of XVIIII the Sun (following a Flemish deck), adding the numeral zero to the otherwise unnumbered Fool, or adding pictorial representations on the pips.

Jewel	13 Nov 2001
Personally I never connected with the deck. I had purchased it as my first deck but soon replaced it with the Robin Wood which I really really like. The Robin Wood has pagan themes, but is Rider-Wait based, so if pagan concepts do not bother you I highly recommend this deck. The one thing I would recommend to you though is to not get hung up on how your books interpret the cards, however. The Tarot is mnemonic, meaning that it the symbols will speak to you. If you do like the symbolism of the deck, but not the interpretations other books give them I would highly recommend Mary Greer's Tarot workbooks (Tarot for Yourself, and Tarot Constellations) which will both help you explore what those cards mean personally to you vs. what is written in another book. In Tarot constellations she actually goes into the debate of the position of the Strength and Justice as 8 and 11 so that we can explore and understand the debate and make our own choice as to which position we feel is the most appropriate. Best of luck, and may your Tarot journey be an enjoyable one always.

tarotbear	14 Nov 2001
I teach with the Rider, but read with the Robin Wood. The problem I encounter is that the foppish, clownlike Medieval costumes on the characters don't connect with the modern world and that tends to put people off. My personal peeve is that no one in the deck looks happy! The couple on the Two of Cups is supposed to be getting married, and I figure they are supposed to look solemn, but they look so sour! LOL!! Aren't they happy to be getting married? Negativity is not such a bad thing- but learning to cope and deal with the negative things in your life is what Tarot is all about...isn't it?

Lilliana	14 Nov 2001
Thanks for your opinions. Lately I've been ignoring the traditional rider meanings and trying to work out my own. I have to agree about all the people looking not very happy. Even on the good cards. Jewel-- The books you mentioned sound interesting, I'll have to check them out. Tommy-- The suit of swords in rider has bothered me too. I could never work out why they were so negative. Jmd, what you pointed out was interesting. Lilliana

Jewel	14 Nov 2001
Lilliana, I am currently working with the work books I recommended to you and absolutly love them! I like the fact that they are "workbooks" vs. only reading. I am using the Robin Wood Tarot to do the work in these books. Another book that I am working with while using the workbooks is Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom by Rachel Pollock. She uses the Raider-Waite and really goes into each card and the symbolism, and other aspects. You might be interested in it as well. I use the Universal Raider-Waite so I can look at the cards as she talks about them and study the symbols and elements in them. Again, good luck!

Kaz	14 Nov 2001
Quote: Jewel (14 Nov, 2001 00:02): Personally I never connected with the deck. I had purchased it as my first deck but soon replaced it with the Robin Wood which I really really like. The Robin Wood has pagan themes, but is Rider-Wait based, so if pagan concepts do not bother you I highly recommend this deck. I agree with you Jewel, RW was my first and only deck until a week ago. RW does not talk to me, and I bought Osho Zen, I love that deck. I still use RW as study deck, cos lots of ppl refer to it and Osho Zen is quite different. And, my b-day is almost there and I will get the Robin Wood deck as a present from my mum and dad. I hope to replace the RW deck with Robin Wood then. Kaz

Jewel	14 Nov 2001
Quote: Kaz (15 Nov, 2001 03:11): I agree with you Jewel, RW was my first and only deck until a week ago. RW does not talk to me, and I bought Osho Zen, I love that deck. I still use RW as study deck, cos lots of ppl refer to it and Osho Zen is quite different. And, my b-day is almost there and I will get the Robin Wood deck as a present from my mum and dad. I hope to replace the RW deck with Robin Wood then. Kaz Congratulations Kaz!!! Happy b-day. I look forward to hearing how you like the Robin Wood once you get it :) One of these days I am going to have to break down and get the Osho Zen, I have yet to run accross a person who has it and does not love it.

isthmus nekoi	15 Nov 2001
I have to admit, despite all the recommendations I got about RW, I never connected w/the deck's imagery... And I totally agree Lilliana, so many of the ppl look really pissed off when the traditional meanings seem to direct you the other way... I got RW to read to others w/ simply b/c of the imagery used, and b/c I didn't think my Vertigo deck could reach most ppl. RW seems to be much more extroverted than V in that way... In any case, I don't know why I do this, but I imagine that decks have their own personalities and I started to warm up to RW after I realized how much crap it had to deal w/ (readings on the fly, to skeptics, in noisy places etc) and it just took it all in this really easy going manner whereas I can imagine V having a total fit in those circumstances. RW gives me direct and extroverted answers unlike V which forces me to turn inwards. Anyways, lots of projection going on, but the deck's starting to grow on me :)

blumoon	19 Nov 2001
i dont see the negativeness in the rider waite that alot of you seem to, jmd i would have to disagree with you on your comment about the swords having a negative tone, im not sure if waite saw them like that but i dont see it, i will consult the little booklet that came with the deck as i remember reading about him talking about Papus in it, the only thing that i dont like about the deck is the religious symbolism in the majors, its not really my cup of tea, it has been a pleasure to learn from the deck though because i can now relate to the symbolism of other decks too :-)

Kalin	19 Nov 2001
Negative does fit, but the problem I kept running into while trying to learn to read the Universal Waite deck was that Waite's interpretations are archaic. The archtypes may be universal but how we interpret and integrate them into our current world can (and probably should) evolve. I'm not knocking Waite--his contributions to Tarot can't be disputed, and are still worthwhile, but trying to interpret a layout through his worldview was a problem, at least for me. I finally began reading the Universal Waite deck (because I do like the deck and value the symbolism) based on what the cards had become to me, but it took me a long, long, time to do this, because I always try to learn (and integrate if possible) the author's interpretations. The upside was that I began getting a much better sense of the visual aspects of the cards and the layouts, because I'm not much of a visual person. Kalin

EveAnna	19 Nov 2001
The Rider Waite is my main deck and although I have noticed the Swords are negative I think they get balanced out by the other cards - I don't actually think that the deck is any more negative than other decks. Then again, I could be biased lol, I love the Rider Waite :)

blumoon	20 Nov 2001
yes the swords are sad, full of people having problems with communication in their relationships, no clarity of thought, nightmares, illness and even vengeful people but the other suits have their share of sadness too eg. alot of the cups cards upright as well as reversed are full of breakups, missed emotional opportunities, mourning, heartbreak, etc, and the pentacles with money problems, bankruptcy, ungenerous people, unemployment, and just plain bad luck, and last but not least, the wands, with plans going wrong or being delayed, not being able to go on that trip you planned for months for, painful indecision, more missed opportunites, temporary/unstable living situations, inner pain and struggle to move forward in life, so you see that all of the suits have their share of "negativity" but as we all know thats life, i think the R/W just shows life a bit more realistically, though sometimes we dont want to see what we are doing wrong so clearly that we cant miss it ;-)

jmd	20 Nov 2001
If Waite was influenced by Papus, of which, I think, there is little doubt, then the negativity of the swords is explicit in his book (Cf Papus Tarot of the Bohemians, p313), in which he lists the key words for this suit as Transformation, Hatred, War. The word 'transformation' has, one would expect, quite a positive connotation. However, each card description has definite negative descriptions... though one can understand these in a positive way (for example, 2 swords: 'the emnity does not last'). If anyone is interested, I can quote what he says for each card, though this may be better as another thread...

MeeWah	20 Nov 2001
I've not found the Ryder (Smith)-Waite deck particularly negative & agree with Blumoon; nor do I have an issue with its artwork. The older decks all have archaic depictions which seem suitable. I may be biased as it was my first deck & the only Tarot deck I could locate many years ago when it was published by Sam Weiser. It has been an inspiration for me. I noticed what Papus indicated about the Swords in his book; however, I understand it to refer to the mental level, where concepts originate as thoughts. Thoughts are things which often manifest as conditions. It may also be seen as a reference to the human condition of challenges--or strife & struggle. Without struggle, there is no learning or progress. Perhaps the tendency is to be short-sighted (considering the finite understanding, which may also be represented by Swords since it pertains to an intellectual process), to see/to think or to anticipate "the worst" so that challenges are not viewed as opportunities but as difficulties.

MeeWah	20 Nov 2001
For those who may be put off by this deck, sometimes the Universal Waite may be preferable as it is a bit "lighter"; or the Robin Wood. Despite this deck's Pagan theme, it is so skillfully rendered that it is also appealing to the non-Pagan. I find the Robin Wood to work extremely well, too & prefer it for ritualistic use.

northsea	20 Nov 2001
Quote: Tommy (13 Nov, 2001 16:17): What amazes me is how much influence Rider-Waite still exerts on tarot meanings after nearly a century. I find an anti-intellect bent in the Swords suit. Only four out of ten have clearly positive readings (upright or reversed). You're basically led to believe that thinking causes depression and ruin. Clear thinking can do just the opposite. It seems like Waite payed too much attention to the traditional medieval symbol swords, and not enough to astrological and elemental (air) aspects. I'm looking at this from a Gemini perspective since, alas, I am a Gemini. Swords 8,9,10 are the Gemini cards in the Minor Arcana. (Lovers in the Major, of course.) While I can see 9 of Swords Mars in Gemini being a Nightmares/Negative Thoughts card, the next card puzzles me. The 10 of Cups and Pentacles both have essentially positive meanings upright. The 10 of Swords is perhaps the most negative card in the deck. Sun and Moon in Gemini would seem to symbolize Gemini traits such as friendship and communication, not being stabbed in the back necessarily. Also, a card like the Five of Swords is interpreted by Waite as Defeat (as far as I know). I would be inclined to call it the Joust card, and see a positive quality of Victory in the upright position, and Defeat in the reversed. If the medieval symbolism of Swords is used, then why not include the positive connotations in the pictures as well ( such as Chivalry, Magic, etc.)? Maybe I'm talking more about designing a medieval tarot deck here, but anyhow...

jmd	21 Nov 2001
I too agree with Blumoon and MeeWah and others! I personally do not find this deck negative, quite the contrary on the whole. And of course one has to make use of the understanding of one's milieu... in this case, Waite's peculiar interests. To think that at the time of its creation, Pamela Colman Smith only possibly had access to the Marseilles, maybe the 1jj, the wonderful Wirth, possibly the Ateilla, maybe also the (egyptian style) Falconnier (on which the Zain/Church of Light deck is based), undoubtedly a version of the Golden Dawn tarot, the descriptions given to her by Waite based on his (though extensive) esoteric research from only a small number of books (Golden Dawn, Papus, E. Levi, Falconnier and probably not much else), it is quite astounding what she has managed to gift the world! Apart from the Crowley/Harris deck, I cannot think of any other twentieth century deck which has become such a classic source of Tarot inspiration... though many may be personal favourites, or personally more inspirational (the BOTA being such a good example... but it too derives importantly from the Waite)... Though I may be critical of it, what a deck!

MeeWah	22 Nov 2001
Tommy: I can see 5-Swords as being a "Joust" card in accordance with a medieval theme. As for it meaning "Defeat", I've read it as referring to the *defeat of one's enemies*; the overcoming of difficulties. Since it is a Sword card, I can see how it can mean "gossip" or talking behind someone's back; a less than positive spin on the concept of communication. It can be a cautionary message, such as "refrain from gossip" or taking advantage of someone's situation. As for 10-Swords, I liken it to the image of 13-Death. In both, the pictorial representation may be frightening at first glance. Upon examination, there is more than is readily apparent. Beyond the figure lying in a pool of blood, there is sunrise, or dawn breaking. It is the end of difficulties; the dawning of understanding, perhaps, at last. It is a card that may refer to an excess, just as the other 10's can. In this one, it' can be as if one is at the end of the line; when every calculation has been figured in or tried. It can be the worse-case scenario; however, it is through hardship that one learns; is pushed to realization or to the Light at the end of the tunnel. In this way, it is a card that speaks simultaneously of endings & beginnings--just as all 10's have that quality.

raistlynne	25 Nov 2001
[quote]tarotbear (14 Nov, 2001 16:50): The problem I encounter is that the foppish, clownlike Medieval costumes on the characters don't connect with the modern world and that tends to put people off. Tarotbear, I couldn't have said it better myself. *cheers!*

Original Destiny	27 Nov 2001
Hi Yes the deck has negative overtones.Ive used this deck for many years and find that by use the cards they have re-formulated or re-defined their meanings.They have instructed ME on their meanings,if that makes sense?I struggled at first but over the years(over 30) the deck has now become one of my favorites......I use the Sacred Rose Tarot just as much. DANCE GRACEFULLY WITH LIFE

shayla dawn	09 Dec 2001
I think you are being too kind, I find it very negitive and recomend Haindl tarot. Shayla Dawn

shayla dawn	09 Dec 2001
I very much agree and I recomend the Haindl tarot cards . Let me know what you think if you do. Shayla Dawn

The rider waite deck--so negative thread was originally posted on 12 Nov 2001 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.