hmm thoth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Dragons_Wing	14 Apr 2003
i see alot of people using the thoth deck, what is it like. is it a stable deck like the rw deck?

HudsonGray	14 Apr 2003
It's stable, but it's very different than the Rider Waite, the meanings were developed differently by Crowley & the pictures are very different. It's sort of a separate system...I don't know how to describe it exactly. Think dog/cat. Both are carnivores & mammals, but they're unique in their own way & even if they're similar they are NOT the same thing. (Ok, bad analogy!). The tarot books for the Rider Waite decks can't be used for the Thoth--the Thoth has it's own books. I hope that helps a bit?

Melissa`	14 Apr 2003
To add to what HudsonGray said.. It is a very different deck than the RWS. Over the last few months I have been trying to work with RWS...and start journal work and seriously study a base deck. That seemed to fail. The actual illustrations bored me :( .. i couldn't sit down with the deck for more than 5 minutes without saying "Ok.. wonder if the house needs cleaning". Then I bought the Thoth along with The Book of Thoth by Crowley and Keywords for the Crowley Tarot. This deck holds my attention. For me it was a good choice for a hardcore study deck. But thats just my personal opinion.. For me it is not only stable but extremely deep. I hope my little ramble helped some.. if any :) Blessings, Amaya

Trogon	14 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Dragons_Wing i see alot of people using the thoth deck, what is it like. is it a stable deck like the rw deck? Stable? Stable???? Well... I've never seen one explode... !! The Röhrig Tarot is Thoth based... it does look a little radioactive... but still fairly stable... it seems to have a relativly low decay rate anyway. hmmm... none of my decks have jumped off the table on their own volition... !! Okay... I'm sorry... perhaps I'm being a bit too facetious? What is meant by a "stable Tarot deck"?

Dragons_Wing	14 Apr 2003
i was v. tired while writing this post...last one i wrote before i feel into bed and fell asleep...i ment staple :( instead of stable oops :(

Emily	14 Apr 2003
I've just started to use the Thoth deck and the whole feel of the deck is very different to the Rider Waite, as HudsonGray mentioned you can't really use Rider Waite books for the Thoth, its too confusing. But it is a fascinating deck, its alot deeper than the Rider Waite. I started with the Rider Waite but its like starting over again with the Thoth, the Thoth is easier to read because the cards are very visual. The court system might take a little getting used to and some of the name changes in the Majors but once you start working with the cards these differences seem natural. I like this deck alot, I wish now that I had studied with this one instead of concentrating on Rider Waite and clone decks.

Trogon	15 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Dragons_Wing i was v. tired while writing this post...last one i wrote before i feel into bed and fell asleep...i ment staple :( instead of stable oops :( LOL... thats alright... it gave me a chance to vent some pent-up stupid humor and sarcasm... it kind of builds up in me sometimes and just has to be released... :D

Richard	15 Apr 2003
I suppose it is kind of a staple deck (although definitely NOT stable), although I've found few books that really deal with it well, besides Crowley's own. What's weird is that, as other people have pointed out, few RWS-based books work with the Thoth deck, but any book about the Golden Dawn Tarot can (with a little bit of thought and adjustment) be used for either the RWS or Thoth. As far as I can tell, most of the minors are the same, except for the six of everything except Wands. The Court cards can be difficult to get your head around (no King...the only book I've come across that adequately explains this is The Key of It All, by Hulse), and the Majors look VERY different, which changes the meaning of many cards...but not as much as you might think. The Hanged Man, however, is represented merely as a relic of the past, Judgment (the end of the old world) has been changed to the Aeon (the beginning of the new), the connection between the Lovers and Art (Temperence) has been greatly intensified, and the connection between the Lovers and the Devil in the RWS has been eliminated. Other than that, you could start reading with it instantly if you know the RWS.

Cascade_Jon	18 Apr 2003
Thoth was my first deck, and after three months of study with it I can honestly say that my results have been... kind of hit or miss. Sometimes the cards can be very insightful; oftentimes I'm left wondering at the symbolism of the Major Arcana. Crowley did a great job in making the Major Arcana live up to the second part of their name - his symbolism is mighty arcane! One has to have deep familiarity with Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Hindu and Buddhist thought to comprehend all the symbolism. The books on the market about the deck (of which I've read two - Gerd Ziegler's Tarot: Mirror of the Soul and Banzhaf/Theler's Keywords for the Crowley Tarot) are helpful, but even these learned authors are forced into oversimplifying the symbolism on the cards in order to make them even slightly useful for any sort of divination. Of the two books, by the way, Keywords for the Crowley Tarot is infinitely the more important in terms of beginning to decipher meanings for the cards. Crowley's own Book of Thoth is so complex, so disjointed, and so terribly dull that few, if any, people could possibly hope to benefit by reading that book (except as a sleep-aid). And now, with the harshness out of the way, I should say that the Thoth deck is not so bad - especially for people that can relate to a great deal of symbolism. It seems to me that RWS is very useful for artistic people who find themselves drawn to simplicity, who believe that simpler is more perfect. Thoth is a deck for intellectuals, those who appreciate complexity, and can memorize a great deal of esoteric symbolism.

skytwig	18 Apr 2003
As an artist, Thoth sings to me (does that indicate instability?). The book I like to use, among many, is The Tarot Handbook, by Angeles Arrien. She explains many of the symbols for each card, even going into the color and astrological influences in the cards. I think the 'fear' of Thoth is the demand or the 'calling' to our intuition. When i first 'met' Thoth, an artist friend used the cards and read very intuitively. It was a gorgeous reading. Einstein said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge," which I know will irk some members here, but I think, for Thoth, it is an important factor. I use both Imagination and Knowledge, but I tend to lean toward Imagination. For me, maybe that is why Thoth is my 'main' deck. skytwig

Cascade_Jon	18 Apr 2003
Really skytwig? I'm surprised to hear you say that you think the Thoth deck is more intuitive, that the cards call to your intuition. For me, when I see the Greek god Dionysius on the Fool Card, I don't feel any pull to my intuition. Instead, I'm racking my brain thinking of all the associations that are supposed to be made to this ugly bull god that never seems to have deserved worship in the first place. And then the Magus (or Magician) card, with the Roman god Mercury, the High Priestess card (with the Egyptian goddess Isis), the Devil card with Pan, etc. etc. Certainly one can make the cards work for you if you use the RWS keywords and intepretations on top of the Thoth cards, but I think many more people will have an easier time seeing the suggested meanings in the RWS cards than in the Thoth cards. The RWS cards are far more Western oriented than Crowley's cards (which are almost exclusively Eastern oriented). I agree with you that there is a great deal more symbolism packed into the Thoth deck, but much of it is ancient, foreign, and/or absurdly subtle. Crowley's deck is riddled with so much Kabbala, so much Egyptian / Greek / Roman / Buddhist / Hindu thought that I quite frankly think that's it far too easy to be confused by the symbolism. If you're going to rely on intuition to read the cards, then why do you need 8 different types of symbolism getting shoved in your face? If you were really relying on pure intuition, why wouldn't an inkblot do for the tarot cards... why would you need 5 pantheons of gods and goddesses splashed across the face of the cards? It's all a little difficult for me to see.

skytwig	18 Apr 2003
Well, there you go, Quote: It's a little difficult for me to see, For me, it isn't. I don't assign myself to any one 'lineage' of thought or symbolism. I LIKE mixing metaphors. Iam eclectic in my Spirituality, so why not with my Tarot? See, Thoth is a perfect fit for this gypsy soul traversing the many 'halls' and byways of the Universe! PS: I like to think as childlike as possible; then i don't miss anything......

Cascade_Jon	18 Apr 2003
LOL... ok I see your point. I think that's what I meant when I said intellectuals will like the Thoth deck... maybe it would be better to say that people with some eclectic sensibility will really appreciate it. But I still maintain that Crowley's Book of Thoth has got to be one of the most frustrating books ever written. The more I read Crowley, the more I dislike him, and I think I've started to take it out on his deck. I really shouldn't blame the deck (which Ms. Frieda Harris did the artwork for, not him) for his personal flaws, no matter how enormous.

skytwig	18 Apr 2003
I know, I thank the Universe for Lady Freida! Try the book I mentioned: The Tarot Handbook by Angeles Arrien. She is a cultural anthropologist, so her perspective is more hawk-like...... or maybe I should say Turkey-vulturish..... (PS - I'd put down the Crowley book for a while. It doesn't seem to fit your 'eyes'.)

jema	18 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig As an artist, Thoth sings to me i just love that phrase:) that is how it is! i sit here more or less surrounded by decks but when i want to do a quick reading - i grab the Thoth. when i do the daily card - Thoth again. I find that reading I did last year and wanna check up on it - i do a comparising reading with the Thoth laid out on top - and it truly does sing:) but then i always did have a thing for Dionyssoss too;) (even though he indeed looks like a bozo on that card)

skytwig	18 Apr 2003
I knowww!!!! :joke: But, I love the idea, jema, that you expressed about opening up a reading by laying it out in Thoth!! Thanks! ..... a Bozo card, hmmmmm..... :laugh: now that I think of it, maybe we're onto something here.... maybe that's what Freida meant for us to see! :rolleyes:

lawguy51	18 Apr 2003
I must confess I converted over from RWS to Thoth a few months ago and haven't really looked back. Which at first blush was a drag because my interpretation journal is based on my Universal Waite experiences. But I must disagree with the earlier comments that you have to reinvest yourself with new meanings when using the Thoth. For two reasons, firstly, many if not most of the cards share meanings and two, who says you have to go by the meanings designated in some book. They are just ink and paper, as Umbrae likes to remind us, and if I see something other than Failure in the Seven of Disks, then whatever I 'see' is what the card means for me. Now let's take the Seven of Disks as an example of two completely different meanings as between Thoth and RWS. The cards aren't so different. The Thoth meaning is, "Destroyed hope, bad circumstances, bad luck, failure of a project, recognizing futility and turning away from it" (Banzhaf/Theler). Now compare that with the reversed meaning described by Rachel Pollack "pervasive dissatisfaction, feeling trapped, anxiety from a project not going well, unsatifying job". Hmmm. And what is the first thing the Mary Greer has to say about the 7 of Disks: "Fear of Failure". The point being, this card has always been difficult for me. Not the positive card of traditional RWS meaning, i.e. sit back and enjoy your accomplishment. I've always seen it as "stay with something sure or take a chance on something new". In other words, it's a card about pushing success away, about staying still because to move would be to invite disaster, or success. So, whether it's the farmer leaning on his hoe or the Seven of Disks, I see inaction, paralysis and therein lies my point. You get to decide what the cards mean for you. Often times, when I look at a Thoth court card I do go through some mental gymnastics, 'ah, Princess of Swords, right that's the Page of Swords, except this Princess is far more proactive....hmmm" but after a while I just see the Princess. And the court cards, they alone are reason enough for me to recommend the Thoth. They are far more evocative than any other court cards I have encountered. As for all the symbolism, some of it I pick up some of it I don't. After a while, you begin to absorb much of it. As I said in a previous post regarding Thoth symbolism, a dead flower is a dead flower. Lawguy51

skytwig	18 Apr 2003
Lawguy, I enjoyed your observations. Yes, at times, I'll do the same thing, "the mental gymnastics". Then I get myself together and pause...... Ok, girl, let's settle down..... Another thing I like about Thoth is it's depth, in that, I never tire of the cards. They are able to 'offer something up' visually even today, 3 years after first opening my first box. (Still have the same deck) As to the 7p, I use that card a lot to indicate a tendency I have creatively fear of failure. It's a brain, learned, thing that crops up so well, i don't even notice it. The 7p likes to jump into fears/hopes or environment of the Celtic Cross; then I say, uh oh, doing it again. With all the work I do with writing and art, I need to be shown when I am cringing! :)

Cascade_Jon	18 Apr 2003
Lawguy, one thing you are right about is the Court cards being much better in Thoth than RWS. Thoth shows all the Courts in a very unique light... whereas RWS has the Court cards as clones of each other; they really look like the royals are sitting around having their portraits taken, which is not at all helpful for inspiring some sort of intuitive reaction to what sort of people they're supposed to be, or what kind of role/action they imply. That said, you can't deny that the Minors are badly short-changed in Thoth... the barely illustrated pips are not going to help people that derive their interpretations from symbols. Crowley's Minors almost force you to rely on his keywords. That said though, RWS is almost too restricting in limiting your reaction strictly to the scene displayed on the Minors... since the Minors are meant to represent a great deal more than can be drawn from a single scene. I'm not sure if it's a perfect solution, but I think a nice development I saw in the new Quest tarot is a bit of a compromise between the two: the Quest tarot uses Thoth's illustrated pip approach, but places them in a fully developed landscape that powerfully evokes the mood of the card. Thoth does paint some atmosphere for the Minor Arcana, but nowhere near the sort of artistry present in the Quest. I think that approach might accomodate more people than either fully illustrated or very loosely defined Minors.

lawguy51	19 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Cascade_Jon That said, you can't deny that the Minors are badly short-changed in Thoth... the barely illustrated pips are not going to help people that derive their interpretations from symbols. Sorry CJ, but I just can't give you that one. I just took a look at my deck. 8 of Swords. Interference. Take a look. Don't you get the same oppressive feeling from that card as you do from the loosely bound blindfolded figure in the RWS deck. I do. Only the Thoth deck seems a bit more menacing. 3 of Disks. Works. A pyramid suppported by three disks surrounded by turbulent water. Pulled this one recently regarding a new partnership I'm entering into with two other partners. Sure looks like creating order out of chaos to me, taking concrete steps to the realization of a plan. Look, I'm still very much a rookie at this. Less than a year. And what it all really comes down to is a word I tend to overuse....resonance. Either a deck resonates for you or it doesn't. I tried my damnest to make Haindl my deck. Studied Pollack's books, worked with the deck. But I couldn't make it happen. With Thoth it did. But that's just my experience. I didn't even want to buy the Thoth deck. Crowley is not my idea of a role model. But I did. And I'm glad I did. Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just love the pips and that is all. Lawguy51

firemaiden	19 Apr 2003
I agree with Lawguy51, the minors speak loads and loads. Thoth was my first deck, the deck I disovered Tarot with, and the Book of Thoth, is what got me interested in the subject. It is incredibly stimulating to read, and so funny! (the Thoth is like the Standard deck in Germany) I enjoy all the fluffier decks too, but the deeper I get into studying the Tarot, the more the Thoth speaks to me.

Silverlotus	19 Apr 2003
I just bought my Thoth deck a few weeks ago, and though I have hardly worked with it, I can say I feel it is something special. While it may not be as easy for me to read with as the Robin Wood deck, it definately talks to me. The pictures are unlike anything I have worked with before. I feel the way the pips are illustrated gives me more room for interpetation. All in all, I'm very glad I added it to my collection. I think it's a staple, in that it is one of the main systems of tarot, and it is interesting to have it as a deck to refer to.

Sulis	19 Apr 2003
I`m with Lawguy, Firemaiden and skytwig on this one. I find that Thoth`s minors are less limiting than a fully illustrated scene a la RWS and it`s clones. I`ve only had my deck for a couple of months, been using it intuitively up till now. I`ve just bought a copy of Ageles Arrien`s `Tarot Handbook` (thanks Skytwig, you inspired me to get this book) and so far I love the way she deals with this deck. The meanings of the minors make more sense to me than the RWS style meanings. I too resisted buying this deck for ages; I thought it would be too deep and itellectual for me but it`s not - I like the way I can see what I want to see in the minors and not some-one elses interpretation of what I should be seeing (does that make sense?). I`ve just ordered Tarot of the Spirit by Pamela and Joyce Eakins as I`ve heard it`s very similar to Thoth. I`m looking forward to working with these 2 decks together, I think they may make a very good comparative partnership. Love and light Crystalmynx xx

skytwig	19 Apr 2003
I agree, crystalmynx, the simplicity of the minors in Thoth lends more to intuition and quiet. It gives us time to focus on the central theme of the card, rather than 'story', for the story we need to see is ours! So glad you got Arrien's book. Her anthrological background and her understanding of psychology mix well with the meny elements tucked into the cards. Just looking at the sword cards, for instance, they all 'make sense'. Each one is simple, but THERE. I think the outstanding quality of the cards is Lady Freida's relationship with Spirit. The cards virtually Breathe with vitality and life. As an artist, what I see is someone who was probably deep in 'trance' or chi connection, anyway, while she explored each card. For me that resonates, even today, in a copy of her painting!! That's powerful!

isthmus nekoi	20 Apr 2003
I started out w/Vertigo, so I had no problem w/the unpopulated pips. I enjoy Rider Waite muchly, but like others, I sometimes find RW's pips can be a bit didactic, although I wouldn't say they aren't just as adaptable as Thoth... What I like about Thoth's minors are the colours and pure expressivity of the artwork. Some of the cups are my fave cards b/c of the instant emotional charge I get from them - Ace of cups for example, all that sensuous pleasure and undulating light pouring out from that gorgeous cup..... I also dig the astrological associations in the minors. As for my own subjective, anthropomorphizing observations: The vibe I get from RW is a very friendly, personable, adaptable but *proper* deck. Formal, straightforward, but never shallow. Also, in comparison to Vertigo, I found RW more extroverted, willing to experiment. w/Thoth, I feel it's more demanding, pretentious, but in the a trickstery, take it or leave it kind of way. Thoth tends to be less approachable than RW, but also looser, cruder, ready to share a good crack while simulateously attempting to plumb the depths, seeking the metastructures of things. It is very far reaching and ambitious w/o losing its sense of humour.

paradoxx	21 Apr 2003
I have pickd up on some interesting vibes with the Thoth Tarot deck i recently purchased for my self. My energy in the tarot diviniation process was renewed with the purchase of this mid 2th century style deck is fast approaching another milestone to its centennial year( This deck along with the Rider Waite). The early feelings of the 20th century have permeated all that is around us now, for it has been a hundred years since our calanders have read '02, '03, '04 and so on. It was in 1904 that Crowley had his "expierence" with diety, and that served as a pathway to this tarot deck, the centennial to this event is deeply connected to the legacy of Crowley. As history repeats itself, we are given new trappings to interpret what has always been. Many of the diviniations i have recieved with this deck are probably not what Crowley or Haris (or anyone from the first half of the 20th century)would expect, but i don't think anyones expectations of the new millenium came as expected. Crowley would enjoy todays world though.

The hmm thoth thread was originally posted on 14 Apr 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.