Old School Tarot
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Shade |
26 May 2003 |
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For a long time I have wanted to get one of the "older" decks to add to my collection. I have been debating particularly over the Marseilles, the Tarot Classic, the Oswald Wirth, or the Visconti (not sure about which version there. I have seen threads which discuss the decks individually but not one that compared them directly. Heres what I've thought so far:
Tarot Classic (I forget it's real name... shaufnaff or some-such): Readily available without having to special order, brighter than the marseilles and definitely looking like it came out of the middle ages. However I'm not crazy about the titles being in English. I think that in a way detracts form the feel.
Marseilles: so close to the classic I can barely tell the difference, though the colors are darker (richer?) and there are minute differences.
Oswald Wirth: While not as old as the others I am slightly more attracted to the art and I think that the symbolism might be a little more advanced than the others which I think I'd like. Maybe more esoteric? I particularly like the Temperance and Death cards.
Visconti: Probably the "prettiest" on the list but it doesn't always seem to stand out as being an antiqe as many of the newer decks seem to copy the style. I am also divided as to whether or ot I prefer the gold edition of the deck. I liked the Devil better in the gold deck but I'm not sure I can handle that much shine, especially when I was looking for an older deck.
One or two yers ago I would have just bought all of them and not lost any sleep over it but I can't really afford that at this time. So what do the serious tarot-holics think about my predicament? Any decks I have scndalously overlooked?
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| ihcoyc |
26 May 2003 |
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Ancient Italian Tarot - my personal favourite. This deck is largely compatible with Marseilles iconic symbolism, if not with colour or design symbolism. It is an attractive engraved deck from the nineteenth century, printed as a reproduction so it does have something of an old fashioned look and feel.
If a true Marseille is needed, the Ancient Tarot of Marseille is available also. This is the Nicholas Conver deck from which most current printings of the Marseille spring. It is available from Camoin, Hadar, and Lo Scarabeo; the Lo Scarabeo may be at your local Borders, as the Ancient Italian might be.
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| Diana |
26 May 2003 |
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The problem for me with the Wirth deck, is that the minors were not designed by Wirth. He only did the majors. It was Stuart Kaplan (apparently) who commissioned the design of the minors. But I'm a big big fan of the Majors and use this deck frequently (without the minors).
The best Marseilles deck in my opinion is the Kris Hadar Véritable Tarot de Paris. But it's out of print right now. But from what I heard, they are planning to re-print them.
A lot of people like the Camoin version of the Marseilles deck. I don't like it so much myself, in spite of my initial enthusiasm. But it is a very popular deck now and has an awful lot of merit. I would suggest you look into it.
The most popular in France is the Grimaud deck - the one you are probably referring to as the "Marseilles". It's the one I used before getting the Kris Hadar deck and I would not do without one.
Does the Schaffhouse deck not exist in French? I would be surprised if it didn't. (Schaffhausen is a town in Switzerland, by the way. In French we call is Schaffhouse). If it's AG Muller who publishes it (I seem to recall it's them), they should have made a French version before the English version. (They are one of the oldest card-makers in Switzerland).
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| Sobeknofret |
26 May 2003 |
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Just a thought, the Swiss 1JJ might be a good option for you also. It was my first deck, and although I don't care much for the Marseilles style decks, it was a good representation of that kind of a deck. Titles are in French, colors are bright and the drawings definitely have that "medieval" flavor to them, and I remember it being widely available at most shops that carried tarot cards; I got my deck from a mall bookstore actually. If you can't find it, I'm sure that you could easily order it.
--Sobe
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| felicityk |
26 May 2003 |
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Originally posted by JohnnyVoodoo
Visconti: Probably the "prettiest" on the list but it doesn't always seem to stand out as being an antiqe as many of the newer decks seem to copy the style. I am also divided as to whether or ot I prefer the gold edition of the deck. I liked the Devil better in the gold deck but I'm not sure I can handle that much shine, especially when I was looking for an older deck.
You may already be aware of this, but there are several reproductions of the Visconti deck available. The Visconti Gold by Lo Scarabeo is "restored", but the others have the worn look of the original cards. They each have a different interpretation of the Devil and Tower, which I compare here:
http://home.attbi.com/~felicityk/tarot/visconti/
Personally, I like the Il Meneghello reproduction best. They also make a small (piccolo) version which is cheaper than the full-size cards.
As for the Marseilles, my preference is also for the decks which show the wear of the original, so I like the Ancient Tarot of Marseilles by Lo Scarabeo.
I would also agree with ihcoyc that a Soprafino-type deck would be nice to have, though again I prefer the Il Meneghello reproduction.
Tom Tadfor Little has a list of important historical reproductions on his site, though it's somewhat out-of-date.
http://www.tarothermit.com/decks.htm
Hope this helps!
Felicity
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| Shade |
27 May 2003 |
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Wow, so much info on the first day, thank you for all of the insight. One thing I really love about this forum is that not only can I find answers here I can also fine tune my question. I'll be looking into all of the other decks you have mentioned here.
I didn't know there were more than two versions of the Visconti, and although the distinctions are only in a few of the cards I know I'll be agonizing over the decision. I always thought that the Scapini version of the devil card seemed a little to... melodramatic and that it didn't fit seemlessly with the other cards. I liked the Lo Scarabeo approach but the idea of all of that gold foil has kept me from buying it. The scarsato devil seems livable and I like the tower in it.
One reason I had wanted an older looking deck is that when I do readings (especially for others) it will set the tone that the tarot is an esoteric tool. When I read with some of the more modern decks people occasionally focus too much on the art or "scene" of the card without absorbing much of the symbolism. With a deck taht I need to walk them through a bit more they might listen.
So thanks and any other ideas for more antique decks?
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| jmd |
27 May 2003 |
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It seems like all the more important ones have been mentioned.
Of the Wirth, it should be recalled that it antedates the Waite only by few years.
The Schaffhouse/Classic's major difference with Marseilles decks is that the Hanged Man has both legs straight and tied, and that the swords upon the pips all show their hilts. Quite a magnificent deck which, amazingly, has never bothered me that its titles have been anglicised (and yet, I find this annoying on Marseille decks!).
Of the Marseilles versions, both the Hadar and the Camoin (if you're interested, see my reviews) are very recent renditions - and both wonderfully executed. The Conver has a particular appeal, and is published by Lo Scarabeo, Camoin (different to the Camoin deck) and Héron (not Hadar). Each publishing house uses a mildly different edition or printing technique - I prefer the Héron rendition.
Of these mentioned decks, it is the only one which is genuinely all Tarot and all 'ancient' (1760).
Personally, and though I consider it a deck Tarot students cannot afford to omit, the Visconti decks just do not fully reflect Tarot: they are painted for a particular family (with, often, depictions of family members), have added cards to transform the deck into a Tarot (the addition of the Devil and Tower cards), and, if the desire is partly to access the esoteric heritage, seems, in my view, to miss out on this as the esoteric tradition establishes itself with the Marseille pattern - not that the Visconti decks omits important northern Italian Renaissance syncreticism...
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| felicityk |
27 May 2003 |
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Hm, maybe someone needs to do what I did for the Visconti reproductions and put together a page that compares all the Marseilles reproductions. :)
Is there somewhere I can see pictures from the Hadar edition?
Felicity
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The Old School Tarot thread was originally posted on 26 May 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.
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