Hoi Polloi---How many different editions?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ruby7	20 Dec 2004
I just received the Hoi Polloi set that I won on E-Bay. I'm curious as to how many different editions there might be of this deck. My deck is copyright 1972, Hoi Polloi Inc. The book that comes with the set, "The Tarot" is copyright 1973 Reiss Games Inc. A few things that surprised me about the deck: 1. Some of the pictures on the cards are badly lined up (not centered or straight). Judgement is particularly bad. 2. The colours on the cards are slightly different from the colours on the box and book. For example: the Sun on the book and box has a yellow sun and sky, the actualy Sun card has an orange sun and orange sky. 3. The colours on the cards have a slightly mottled look, coloured by watercolours originally maybe? The deck comes in a long purple box with The Tarot at the top and pictures of four cards; Empress, Sun, 9 of pentacles, 3 of swords. The book enclosed is half purple, half white and is called The Tarot--Cards that tell people about themselves and their future, and has a picture of The Sun card on the front. How does your Hoi Polloi compare? Ruby7

Imagemaker	20 Dec 2004
I must have the edition before yours. The only copyright on the box and book says 1972 Hoi Polloi, Inc. On the box it says "Marketed by Reiss Associates.Inc." no date, also says "Style #276-600. The box is brown, made to look like a treasure chest with dark brown wood grain and hinges on the top (of the cardboard), a gold lock opening on the front, and the words"The Tarot" on top are placed on a light tan shape rather like a brass name plate. The book is crispy parchment-like paper, simulated, of course. It's pale gold and crinkly, like it's supposed to be old (older than 1972). There are no color pictures in the book at all, or any colored printing. All black. A skeleton key is centered on the front, like the key on the card backs. My Judgment card is centered well. This must be the edition made before Reiss turned from Associates, Inc. to Reiss Games, Inc. I bought it in the 1970s.

Rusty Neon	20 Dec 2004
Ruby7 wrote: I just received the Hoi Polloi set that I won on E-Bay. Hi ruby7, It looks like my edition is different from yours and from Imagemakers'. Quote: I'm curious as to how many different editions there might be of this deck. My deck is copyright 1972, Hoi Polloi Inc. I presume you're speaking of the cards themselves. On my cards, it says: COPYRIGHT (C) 1972, HOI POLLOI INC., NYC, NY Quote: The book that comes with the set, "The Tarot" is copyright 1973 Reiss Games Inc. In my case, it's: Copyright (c) 1981, Paragon-Reiss, Inc. Printed in U.S.A. Quote: A few things that surprised me about the deck: 1. Some of the pictures on the cards are badly lined up (not centered or straight). Judgement is particularly bad. I see this in my deck too. Judgement, 10 of Swords off-centre. Queen of Pents: off-centre and badly-lined up Quote: 2. The colours on the cards are slightly different from the colours on the box and book. For example: the Sun on the book and box has a yellow sun and sky, the actualy Sun card has an orange sun and orange sky. My book doesn't have any pictures on the cover nor inside. Quote: 3. The colours on the cards have a slightly mottled look, coloured by watercolours originally maybe? Same here. Quote: The deck comes in a long purple box with The Tarot at the top and pictures of four cards; Empress, Sun, 9 of pentacles, 3 of swords. The book enclosed is half purple, half white and is called The Tarot--Cards that tell people about themselves and their future, and has a picture of The Sun card on the front. On the front of my box: The Tarot Cards That Tell People About Themselves and Their Future four cards: Empress, Sun, Nine of Pents, Three of Swords __________________________________ On the back of my box, it says: Manufactured by Reiss (in a circular design) Style #176-600 Copyright (c) 1973, Reiss Games, Inc., New York, N.Y. 10001 Graphics by Jason Peterson Made in U.S.A.

Ruby7	20 Dec 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: Hi ruby7, It looks like my edition is different from yours and from Imagemakers'. I presume you're speaking of the cards themselves. On my cards, it says: COPYRIGHT (C) 1972, HOI POLLOI INC., NYC, NY I wasn't specific enough. My cards say exactly the same at the bottom of the backs of the cards. Quote: On the front of my box: The Tarot Cards That Tell People About Themselves and Their Future four cards: Empress, Sun, Nine of Pents, Three of Swords __________________________________ On the back of my box, it says: Manufactured by Reiss (in a circular design) Style #176-600 Copyright (c) 1973, Reiss Games, Inc., New York, N.Y. 10001 Graphics by Jason Peterson Made in U.S.A. The back of my box is exactly the same. All the best Ruby7

Imagemaker	20 Dec 2004
On the bottom of my box there's text and pictures of 3 cards: Sun, 3 swords and Empress. In the text it says, among other things: "A 16-page booklet on parchment paper . . ." What makes paper a parchment? The book paper feels a lot like one of those replicas of a US Declaration of Independence.

Ruby7	20 Dec 2004
Imagemaker wrote: I must have the edition before yours. The only copyright on the box and book says 1972 Hoi Polloi, Inc. On the box it says "Marketed by Reiss Associates.Inc." no date, also says "Style #276-600. This must be the edition made before Reiss turned from Associates, Inc. to Reiss Games, Inc. I bought it in the 1970s. Hi Imagemaker, You'll notice that you have a different style number (#276-600) from Rusty and myself (#176-600). Do you use your deck a lot? All the best, Ruby7

Rusty Neon	20 Dec 2004
Guys, I think my set is an Ür-tarot. :) On page 2 in the booklet it says: "The cards in this set are an authentic reproduction of decks from the Middle Ages. The meanings of the cards given in this booklet are ancient meanings passed down through the generations, and the spreads shown are traditional layouts used for centuries in reading the messages of the Tarot cards."

Imagemaker	20 Dec 2004
Ah, mine may be more Ur than yours (notice the ur in your?) because my book has that paragraph but I have an additional sentence! After the first one you gave, I have this: No attempt has been made to "modernize" them. (their quote marks!) Sounds like Reiss might have made an attempt to modernize subsequent editions! Yay, I have the Ur-tarot! Parchment book and treasure chest box, too!

Ruby7	20 Dec 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: Guys, I think my set is an Ür-tarot. :) On page 2 in the booklet it says: "The cards in this set are an authentic reproduction of decks from the Middle Ages. The meanings of the cards given in this booklet are ancient meanings passed down through the generations, and the spreads shown are traditional layouts used for centuries in reading the messages of the Tarot cards." Wow. Now that really is something :) My booklet does not mention anything like that at all. My booklet is so old and musty that I can't look at it for long without feeling sick--so there may be some info that I haven't found yet. The Hoi Polloi as an Ur-tarot---who would have thought??:)

Ruby7	20 Dec 2004
Imagemaker wrote: Ah, mine may be more Ur than yours (notice the ur in your?) because my book has that paragraph but I have an additional sentence! After the first one you gave, I have this: No attempt has been made to "modernize" them. (their quote marks!) Sounds like Reiss might have made an attempt to modernize subsequent editions! Yay, I have the Ur-tarot! Parchment book and treasure chest box, too! Even more amazing!!:) Tarot history will have to be rewritten. Ruby7

Imagemaker	20 Dec 2004
Well, I did dig this box out of my closet last winter, having totally forgotten its existence. The treasure element/evidence is predominant, therefore ur potential is quite strong. Doesn't hoi polloi mean something like "of the common people"? Definitely ur-material.

Rusty Neon	20 Dec 2004
Imagemaker ... You're so fortunate to have the Visconti Polloi with the woodgrain box. Mine is just a plain paper neck-tie box. {sigh} Imagemaker wrote: Doesn't hoi polloi mean something like "of the common people"? Definitely ur-material. Indeed. The Hoi Polloi is definitely no mere Rider clone!

Umbrae	21 Dec 2004
My Hoi Polloi is one of the original medieval printings. I have proof. Alas however, no box. But it’s hundreds of years old. I guarantee it.

lark	21 Dec 2004
It is not a well known fact, but three wise men from the east came riding in on camels carrying woodgrain treasure chest shaped boxes filled with Hoi, Pol and Loi. Hence the name of the deck. Ur was the name of one of the camels.

Rusty Neon	21 Dec 2004
ruby7 and imagemaker, It's interesting odds so far. Three decks and they're all different versions.

ferrous	21 Dec 2004
Er .. Ur?

Alta	21 Dec 2004
ferrous wrote: Er .. Ur? I am not positive but I think jmd made the term up. It means 'mother of all tarots'. Think Desert Storm.

CreativeFire	21 Dec 2004
ferrous wrote: Er .. Ur? :laugh: I am glad you asked ferrous! As I was curious as well after reading through this thread. :) CF

ferrous	21 Dec 2004
Marion wrote: I am not positive but I think jmd made the term up. So we have jmd to blame for our confusion? ;)

Imagemaker	21 Dec 2004
From the Oxford Dictionary (the electronic one online)--the entry for "ur" as a prefix: (Interesting to note that the word first appeared in the late 19th century) ur-, denoting ‘primitive, original, earliest,’ as ur-Hamlet, -origin, -stock, etc. See also URHEIMAT, URSCHLEIM, URSPRACHE, URTEXT. G. ursprache (= primitive language) has been freq. used in recent English philological works. [1864 max mÜller lect. sci. lang. (1871) ii. 133 the most troublesome of all vowels, the neutral vowel, sometimes called urvocal, better unvocal.] 1889 JACOBS Caxton's Aesop I. 37 Any light he can throw on the Ur-origin of the Fables. 1901 BOAS Kyd's Wks. p. xlv, The Ur-Hamlet may have contained a number of these borrowings. 1926 A. MØLLER tr. Pedersen's Israel I. I. 245 The word sh{emac}m is found in all Semitic languages and belongs to the absolutely certain ur-semitic components. 1927 A. H. MCNEILE Introd. to Study of New Testament iii. 50 It was an Ur-Evangelium, a primitive written Gospel, some say in Hebrew, some in Aramaic, on which our Gospels were based. 1937 O. JESPERSEN Analytic Syntax 142 Some well-known students of language who even call this [sc. ‘s is p’] the ‘urform’ of sentences. 1943 V. NABOKOV in Atlantic Monthly May 69/2 The dreadful vulgarity, the Ur-Hitlerism of those ludicrous but vicious organisations. 1947 AUDEN Age of Anxiety (1948) ii. 46 For Long-Ago has been Ever-After since Ur-Papa gave The Primal Yawn that expressed all things. 1949 F. FERGUSSON Idea of Theater i. 26 An enactment of the Ur-Myth of the year~god. 1950 Psychiatry XIII. 168/2 The concept of ur-language and ur-symbolism is of particular importance in Freud's thought. 1964 C. S. LEWIS Discarded Image iv. 54 Plato's ur-Freudian doctrine of the dream as the expression of a submerged wish. 1966 Punch 9 Nov. 718/2 Above is Leonardo da Vinci's design for an ur-tank. 1971 Astrophysics & Space Sci. X. 363 (heading) Orientation of galaxies and a magnetic ‘urfield’. 1977 Listener 31 Mar. 416/1 The importance of the folk example which he [sc. bartók] argued to be one of the ur-sources of music. 1979 Ibid. 14 June 831/1 Sir Nikolaus Pevsner's ur-history, Pioneers of Modern Design. 1983 Sunday Tel. 13 Mar. 14/6 Russell Hoban is an ur-novelist, a maverick voice that is like no other.

ferrous	21 Dec 2004
Very good, very good. This clears up the matter somewhat. Thanks, Imagemaker. :)

The Hoi Polloi---How many different editions? thread was originally posted on 20 Dec 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.