Pagan Themed Decks

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Magi	27 Dec 2004
What is the popular opinion of pagan themed decks? Do you think the major arcana should be changed or left the same?

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
Ok..here's the dumb question of the day...why would someone deem it necessary to change the Majors in a Pagan deck?

Moongold	27 Dec 2004
Magi ~ The "Tarot of the Old Path has changed the titles and the symbolism of the Majors, although the deck is undoubtedly an RWS clone. These are the Major Arcana in the TotOP; 0. Fool I. Magician II. High Priestess III. Empress IV, Emperor V. High Priest (Hierophant) VI. Lovers VII. Mastery (Chariot) VIII. Strength IX. Wise One (Hermit) X. Wheel of Fortune XI. Justice XII. Lone Man (Hanged Man) XIII. Close (Death) XIV. Guide (Temperance) XV. Temptation (Devil) XVI. Tower XVII. Star XVIII. Illusion (Moon) XIX. Sun XX. Karma (Judgment) XXI. World (Universe) I think the changes are very much in keeping with what I know of pagan traditions and each of the cards has inherent symbolism according to the role. Even so, the Tarot of the Old Path remains an RWS clones and can be understood fairly quickly in that sense. I think it is accepted now that it is OK to adapt the cards in such a manner, whilst maintaining the basic principles of Tarot. Many decks go far further. Rachel Pollack's "Shining Tribe" has many more substantial changes but is still authentic Tarot. She changes the names of the suits altogether and the Court cards become "Vision" cards. Whilst not a Christian deck, I don't think "Shining Tribe" could be called a pagan deck either. The "Old Path" is quite beautiful and I highly recommend it. There was a study group on it here that can still be found it if you do a search.

Phaedra	27 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: These are the Major Arcana in the TotOP; I think the changes are very much in keeping with what I know of pagan traditions and each of the cards has inherent symbolism according to the role. Maybe. See below. Quote: V. High Priest (Hierophant) Although it makes it more symmetrical to have High Priestess/High Priest, since Hierophant means "high priest" (a term from paleopagan Greek religion) and was already a change from calling the card Pope, it seems a little redundant. Quote: XII. Lone Man (Hanged Man) Why change this one? The Hanged Man derives much of its RWS image from Heathen myth. Quote: XIII. Close (Death) I don't get the point of this change at all. Death isn't Pagan?

northsea	27 Dec 2004
Many believe that 13 isn't a card of physical death, so maybe they changed the title to move away from that interpretation. Most pagans don't believe in a Christian devil so they may not want it on a card. Same goes for a last judgment.

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
Well...I do not see the significance with the changes that are stated above and I am Wiccan which is very Pagan...however, in the Daughters of the Moon the High Priestess is referred to as "The Witch" ...which is very "paganish"... but I still don't see the need to "change" anything just because one is "Pagan". That's only my humble opinion though...I'm not up on as many decks as some are within this forum. I wish I had a picture of "The Witch" because it's an amazing card and one of my favorites within that particular deck. Also...The Hermit in this deck is referred to as "The Crone"...But we all know that the "crone" is the wisest of the maiden, mother and crone concept..."inner wisdom"...etc...

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
northsea wrote: Many believe that 13 isn't a card of physical death, so maybe they changed the title to move away from that interpretation. Most pagans don't believe in a Christian devil so they may not want it on a card. Same goes for a last judgment. That's if one looks at the card in the "literal" sense and not the meaning of the card... I'd also like to add that the DOM changed "Judgement" to "Celebration" ..which does fit the RWS meaning in many ways...

Moongold	27 Dec 2004
Phaedra wrote: Maybe. See below. Although it makes it more symmetrical to have High Priestess/High Priest, since Hierophant means "high priest" (a term from paleopagan Greek religion) and was already a change from calling the card Pope, it seems a little redundant. Why change this one? The Hanged Man derives much of its RWS image from Heathen myth. I don't get the point of this change at all. Death isn't Pagan? Hi Phaedra ~ Have you seen the actual images? The changes might be more understandable if you could see the actual cards. I guess the artists have their own visions and interpretations. The deck works well and must be experienced to see this. I am not pagan but this was always a "must have" deck for me. The art work is delicate and beautiful. A deck can open the doors to a particular mythology and this has done that for me. I hope you can see it, if you have not already.

RedMaple	27 Dec 2004
I don't like it when decks change the Majors to "prettify" the meanings, or when something that is very resonant as an image is changed to an abstraction. This is a problem I have with the Celtic Wisdom tarot. I will probably end up cutting off the names of the cards because they seem to diminish rather than add to or clarify the meaning. Death is direct, and hits you in the gut. Transformation, change, close, all of those are less powerful words. I think it's our job as readers to know that Death can have all those meanings, but not to limit the card to some abstraction. On the other hand, the Goddess tarot has the Hierophant as Juno-Tradition, and I liked that it gave me the chance to think about women's traditions, rather than men's. It makes sense to me that a Pagan deck would have the Horned God rather than the Devil, which is a demonization of the original. But then, what do we have for all those instances of addiction, bondage, temptation, projection, that are part of our psyches and world. We do need a card for that. Is that a shadow of the Horned God? I don't think so, myself. But I would need to locate those forces somewhere in some card in the deck. My preference is for what will give me the most resonant and powerful image. In the original Tarot, I love the Lady with the Lion (Strength) but hate the Judgment card. Both of these are abstract words, yet the lady with the lion is powerful and resonant, while the judgment card has only a Christian meaning for me, and thus, falls flat.

TygrEyes	27 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: ....I wish I had a picture of "The Witch" because it's an amazing card and one of my favorites within that particular deck. ... Go to Tarot Garden & search for Daughters, click on the "colored" listing & then click for more samples. "The Witch" is there. The Tarot Garden

MeeWah	27 Dec 2004
Every deck designer moves from the realm of the individual experiences & with the cards. Thus, they would tend to imbue a card with their own "spin" & based on a particular spirituality or theme. That need not detract from the card itself nor its intrinsic meaning. Besides Tarot of the Old Path, decks such as the Sacred Circle & the Greenwood are considered of a Pagan view (which of itself is comprised of different views or adherences also). They depart from the usual order & naming of the Major Arcana.

Shade	28 Dec 2004
The card that usually gets at least a little bit of change in a pagan deck is the Devil. At first it usually seems as though he change is made so as not to associate the Christian devil with paganism. The deeper reason for the change (I believe) is that a lot of the associations with the Devil in traditional decks have some Abrahamic hang ups about the material world, sexuality, and the shadow being entirely negative things. There are a couple of common ways the Devil gets worked over in pagan decks. To keep the meaning of the card the same but remove all of the association with Beelzebub as can be seen in the Robin Wood and Celtic Dragon decks. To associate the card with the Neo-pagan (I apologize to those of you who hate the term neo-pagan) Horned One as in the Witches Tarot, Druidcraft and Legend Tarot. These versions usually play up the sexuality aspect of the card but are basically about primal instinct. This probably the most theologically correct choice but it is also the one that frustrates non-pagan tarot enthusiasts the most. Some newer decks take a middle-of-the-road approach where the card still doesn't depict Old Scratch but makes use of trickster figures from folklore as was done in the Old Path and Waking the Wild Spirit decks. LS's recent Pagan Tarot took an entirely new approach with its devil card showing the relationship between the protagonist and her family. Personally I think pagan themed decks aught to do a bit more in the arena of reworking Christian based tarot symbolism. The World, for example, in pagan decks often has the symbol of the four evangelists on it. This choice can be defended as they represent zodiac figures but I have often felt that their placement on the card is unnecessary in a pagan deck.

CreativeFire	28 Dec 2004
A fairly new one out, The Druidcraft Tarot, which would fall into the Pagan themed decks as it is a combination of Wicca and Druidry have changed a couple of the titles for the majors. The Fool The Magician The High Priestess The Lady The Lord The High Priest The Lovers The Chariot Strength The Hermit The Wheel Justice The Hanged Man Death The Fferyllt - this is the traditional Temperance card and has been called the Fferyllt as this apparently is a Druid alchemist, who combines the powers of fire and water to create harmony and balance (from the book) Cernunnos - instead of The Devil. Cernunnos - the Lord of the Animals, the wild Herdsman and Hunter. The Tower The Star The Moon The Sun Rebirth - instead of Judgement The World - which does not have the four evangelists but symbols of the four suits / elements - cup, sword, pentacle and wand. This is a truly lovely deck and the imagery does follow along the traditional RWS but with a few different drawings that work very well, IMHO. As someone mentioned above, the Sacred Circle is another pagan themed deck that has changed a few of its titles (majors) and it also changed some of their order as well. CreativeFire

Magi	28 Dec 2004
My personal opinion is that the symbolisim should act as a trigger to open the senri (third) eye. In order to do this one must feel a connection, both spiritually and astheticaly, to the cards. As a wiccan I don't connect with the Devil card in the RWS, not because of the title, but rather the christian symbolisim. Though I can work with the tarots that have a lot of christian symbolisim, I lack the quality of the connection I recive with my Celtic Dragon and Old Path tarots.

Shade	28 Dec 2004
Magi wrote: My personal opinion is that the symbolisim should act as a trigger to open the senri (third) eye. In order to do this one must feel a connection, both spiritually and astheticaly, to the cards. As a wiccan I don't connect with the Devil card in the RWS, not because of the title, but rather the christian symbolisim. Though I can work with the tarots that have a lot of christian symbolisim, I lack the quality of the connection I recive with my Celtic Dragon and Old Path tarots. I can relate to that. I think it was probably a little pompous of me to say one approach might be "theologically correct." I like the Horned Lord approach because it resonates for me. First I often think of the Devil (the archetype not the card) as some outside force whose job is to tempt us, which (I think) can lead to people not having to feel responsible for their own shadow. I also think it is healthy for people to, at times, dance their shadow. I think some of the more traditional (there's that word again) versions of the card put the querent in the role of the chained victim rather than the one who is holding the chains. I do hope Christian readers don't think I'm suggesting Christian iconography is repressive, I just find it limiting because I don't relate to all of it.

Magi	28 Dec 2004
You are so verry right Shade. I dispise the strict light is good dark is evil thing. One must embrace one's dark side to truely undertand and love one's self. After all, we are but human.

WolfyJames	29 Dec 2004
Magi wrote: My personal opinion is that the symbolisim should act as a trigger to open the senri (third) eye. In order to do this one must feel a connection, both spiritually and astheticaly, to the cards. As a wiccan I don't connect with the Devil card in the RWS, not because of the title, but rather the christian symbolisim. Though I can work with the tarots that have a lot of christian symbolisim, I lack the quality of the connection I recive with my Celtic Dragon and Old Path tarots. This is so true! Even though I've been doing tarot for quite a while, some cards were bothering me, I wasn't sure why. Since I've approached paganism, I've understood that the christian cards do bother me: the images and titles. I don't mind with middle-age setting decks like the Golden Tarot, the Tarot de Marseille, the Old English Tarot, etc.: people were very christian then. Plus it reminds me of my childhood and the pretty golden images my mother used to buy me. I get nostalgic. But now I'm a fully grown-up adult and I'm not christian anymore. It's taken some time before I managed to get the Tarot Of The Old Path (Gainsford and Rodway) and I love this deck, more than I thought I would. The essence of tarot is there, but the christian titles and imagery are gone. I relate way better to this deck. The Magician is replaced by a shaman, the High Priest's temple is in nature, the Wheel of Fortune showing the rythm of the world, death and birth on the Death card (renamed the Close), the doomed couple with bad intentions on the Devil card (renamed Temptation), the self that explodes on the Tower, and the card Karma (Judgement) is so well done, showing death and reincarnation. I'm not going to mention all the cards but just to say the deck is awesome.

Magi	29 Dec 2004
I'm so glad that there are people who feel the same as I do on this subject, that the connection is one of the most important things to reading a deck.

huredriel	29 Dec 2004
WolfyJames wrote: It's taken some time before I managed to get the Tarot Of The Old Path (Gainsford and Rodway) and I love this deck, more than I thought I would. The essence of tarot is there, but the christian titles and imagery are gone. I relate way better to this deck. The Magician is replaced by a shaman, the High Priest's temple is in nature, the Wheel of Fortune showing the rythm of the world, death and birth on the Death card (renamed the Close), the doomed couple with bad intentions on the Devil card (renamed Temptation), the self that explodes on the Tower, and the card Karma (Judgement) is so well done, showing death and reincarnation. I'm not going to mention all the cards but just to say the deck is awesome. Although I am a beginner (only been doing this for a month) the only deck I have is Tarot of the Old Path. It was the only one that called to me when I was looking and I had already seen it from my own tarot reader, so I have to agree that it is totally awesome. My next deck I'm hoping to get is the Celtic Dragon one. I didn't realise when I was looking but both of these are "pagan" decks and it's something I've started looking into, before I decided to venture into tarot. Coincidence? I don't think so. As for getting hold of Tarot of the Old Path, I was very lucky and found a website that stocks it for (keyboard going wrong) 14 quid (english). I think most of their decks are that price. If anyone is interested its "www.holisticshop.co.uk". Not sure if it's ok to put that on here, but just in case anyone wants to have a look. Anyway, rambling on, I have to say I have found the renaming of the decks very helpful as a beginner and i just LOVE this deck.

MeeWah	29 Dec 2004
Shade wrote: ...I like the Horned Lord approach because it resonates for me. First I often think of the Devil (the archetype not the card) as some outside force whose job is to tempt us, which (I think) can lead to people not having to feel responsible for their own shadow. I also think it is healthy for people to, at times, dance their shadow. I think some of the more traditional (there's that word again) versions of the card put the querent in the role of the chained victim rather than the one who is holding the chains... Shade has expressed succinctly my view. Especially regarding the self-responsibility rather than exterior forces as the self is who holds the chains. I also use the Tarot of the Old Path & love it for the reasons mentioned by other members.

The Pagan Themed Decks thread was originally posted on 27 Dec 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.