Marketing the Marseille

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Scion	24 Jan 2005
Okay... So I find that I'm being inexorably drawn into the Marseille vortex. Don't really know how it happened, but after reading many resonant posts by jmd, Diana and Helvetica and what I like to think of as the Marseille Krewe, I have started poking around in the Marseille with Tomberg's Meditations. Heady, sweeping stuff... I was just reading people's reactions to the "Top Ten" deck and was struck by how many people were surprised NOT to see the Marseille represented. People are always looking for new decks and new approaches, but Marseille remains behind the oceanic veil. According to popular wisdom, the Rider-Waite-Smith continues to command American Tarot because of its ubiquity and the support in the literature, aside from its potency. Mysteriously, the Tarot de Marseille has survived for centuries, flourished in the Old World, yet barely made the leap across the Atlantic. Why? Now... Maybe it's just cause I've been in production meetings all day, but I started to think about how the Marseille could be "sold" to the rest of the Tarot community and what it meant to be in the "Top Ten." I'm curious. What do people think is the way to "bring Marseille to the masses?" What would put Marseille in the "Top Ten" next year? For these purposes, no selling Marseille by trashing other decks. Remember: no negativity. You're a marketing wiz now, and negativity is a turnoff in a pitch meeting. All perspectives are useful cause you're either using it already or you can tell the team what would make you want it. No debating merits or popularity. Authenticity is moot and academic. And scenic/nonscenic is only a useful observation if it helps you SELL! :D Let's say you were hired by a Madison Ave marketing firm to sell Marseille to 1000s of "New World" users (the Americas/NZ/Oz/etc), which Marseille deck would you choose and why? How would you justify your choice? What supporting literature or information would you solicit, commission, or translate for the untapped American market? How would you open the door for all of these hungry tarotphiles to the Ancien Regime of Tarot? Scion

Rosanne	24 Jan 2005
I don't know about America, but here in New Zealand, it would be a great start to have some sample packs on the shop floor. Marseilles and its varients have to be ordered in. In Europe Marseilles is the starting point it seems. Here you are considered an academic to want Marseilles. Its odd considering it appears it was the 'common mans' wicked little pack. I think I would market it in the New World as the Tarot that inspired diversity and a must for readers and collectors alike. The New World(of which I view New Zealand and Australia and USA Etc) has always hungered after the mystery and allure of Historic Europe and I would repackage it to reflect that view. In an antique looking box, maybe with a medieval map and a tour guide to its history. Regards Rosanne

firemaiden	25 Jan 2005
What a fun post, scion! Lets see, I might say something like "step right up ladies and gentleman, behold the cards that reach across centuries, behold the human spirit, captured in simple woodcuts, how alive their eyes, how they seem to leap off the card, and speak!" P.S. re: Tomberg -- you too, eh? I stopped in the bookstore today to read a bit of the Méditations - I looked at some of the letter X. It sure was interesting!

spoonbender	25 Jan 2005
This is a very interesting thread... BUT the division between the "New World" and the "Old World" doesn't seem right to me. It reminds me of the division some also make between "New Europe" and "Old Europe", as if the "Old" is passé and not of any relevance. I'm not saying you intended this, but to me those are loaded terms :). A division between Europa and the US is also artificial, because I'm from Europe and it's VERY difficult to find anything about the Tarot de Marseille. All the shops I've been to here in Belgium ONLY sell books about the Rider-Waite or the Thoth. (BTW I know a lot of people think Belgium is French-speaking, but it's not: there's a Flemish/Dutch side and a Walloon/French side - and I'm from the Flemish side.) I think what would make the Tarot de Marseille much more popular, is more BOOKS (and more decks in the shop). Most people don't feel confident enough to start reading Tarot without some information... and they especially don't feel confident reading non-scenic cards. So it's important that there are more good books, that also discuss the Minor Arcana in detail and offer sample readings. It would be nice to have a Tarot de Marseille deck and book set. I don't think an antique and historic look is the way to go - I don't think that would appeal to a lot of people. I think it's important to make it clear that the Tarot de Marseille is still alive and relevant TODAY, not a couple of centuries ago. The book could also contain fun exercises, like monthly energy readings and reading for mythological creatures :). Spoon

Jewel-ry	25 Jan 2005
Many people get scared off of the Marseilles because they can't get any books about it. They have no idea where to start with reading the pip cards. So. Someone still needs to write a good book in English. Yes, but where does one start, I hear you all say. Well, it doesn't matter, the point is it would be a start for those of us who muddle along with little direction at all. A book would only be someones opinion (another thread I think :) ) but it would be a start from which enthusiasts could jump from. Wow spoon! Great minds think alike. Our posts must have crossed!

Diana	25 Jan 2005
Oh shucks! I would never use modern marketing ploys with the Tarot of Marseilles. (You said we can't use authenticity nor merits as a marketing skill? Why not? Are authenticity and merit not sellable in today's world? That is sad. :( ). What I would do, and this is all I would do, would be to create a small sticker to put on all the Tarot decks saying: "Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened unto you." If one really wants some modern Nike kind of advertising, I would also give to the vendors a small poster they could put up in the shop saying: "Get the real thing!" (I may not sell 1000 decks like that, but sometimes one person is worth ten.) Books? Who needs books when we have Internet Forums and Search Engines, threads and texts of which can even be printed out so everyone can have their own book adapted to their needs. No need to spoonfeed people. (Scion: I am aware of the Humour and the Spirit of Fun in which you began this thread. But I can't help being me when it comes to the Marseilles! I am going to enjoy reading this thread and I have a feeling it will be most enlightening! :) ).

Moongold	25 Jan 2005
Although Diana's views will alienate some they might just be edgy enough to work. Like the Nike athletics ads they aim to touch people's covert need for superiority or, to look at it more euphemistically, agenuine interest in excellence. You're somehow a class above everyones else if you wear Nike or have a Marseille and that is irresistable :) . That kind of marketing works. When I sat down to think about this I wondered why people would even bother to market the Marseille. It's non-European for a beginning and, without context or literature in English to support it, it doesn't really have much of a chance. You also need an understanding of Tarot and a commitment to explore aspects of the Tarot to get the most out of it (IMHO). But if you really wanted to have a go you could target niche markets. You could make the occult acceptable and fashionable amongst certain elites. Instead of Nike you could associate it with fine wine, antiques, students et al If the publishers of Marseilles decks were really keen on selling their products to us in the New World they would strike distribution deals with non-European sellers like US Games, Borders. Theosophical Societies and so on. And they would ensure that some of the basic books were available in English. The only Marseilles I can get off the shelves in Melbourne is the Lo Scarobeo Conver and the Grimaud, and sometimes they have to be ordered in. I personally think that the Marseille in my own culture is something one discovers when the time is right. I am glad I did but I'm ready to stop talking about this sort of stuff and start thinking about the cards again. :) But just for fun, I did this. I am not very artistic but had some fun: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/Firepeace/Marseillesmarketing.jpg

spoonbender	25 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: Books? Who needs books when we have Internet Forums and Search Engines, threads and texts of which can even be printed out so everyone can have their own book adapted to their needs. No need to spoonfeed people. Diana, I agree that (naturally) quality is more important than quantity, but I do believe it's important that the decks and books are more readily available. I don't see how that gets in the way of the authenticy of the Tarot de Marseille. If there was a Tarot de Marseille available in the shop where I bought my first deck, I might not have started out with the Rider-Waite. And I know you don't actually NEED books, but books can be a very good starting point. Besides, many people believe they DO need books, so they turn to the Rider-Waite, because of the vast amount of info that has been written about it. Sites? I personally haven't seen any good site about the Tarot de Marseille in English. Someone is welcome to give me a nice link if they have one :)! *OK, I'm a little late with editing, but I just wanted to clarify that I'm talking about sites, not forums!!* Spoon

Diana	25 Jan 2005
spoonbender wrote: Sites? I personally haven't seen any good site about the Tarot de Marseille in English. spoonbender: The WorldWideWeb is FULL of web-sites on things that the Tarot of Marseilles deals with. They may not have the title "Tarot of Marseilles" on them, but they touch on themes that one finds in the Tarot of Marseilles and that is sufficient! Yesterday, I was wandering around a web-site on clothing in the Middle Ages for instance. The other day, on the Numerology in the Middle Ages web-site. And previously, on an alchemy web-site. You wouldn't have enough time in a life-time to read all the stuff that is written on the Tarot of Marseilles without having the word "Tarot of Marseilles" written in it. That's what I mean also by "seek and thee shalt find"..... Moongold: Nice ad!! (Personally, I would fight against the Marseilles becoming a "fashion" - in one year and out the other, just like the majority of the decks that are churned out each year. Some would call me an "intégriste", others would call me "intègre". Depends on where one stands, I suppose.)

Fulgour	25 Jan 2005
Scion wrote: What do people think is the way to "bring Marseille to the masses?" What would put Marseille in the "Top Ten" next year? As an enlightened entrepreneur, I would initiate a promotion, offering an historically accurate 1909 Pamela Colman Smith, and the 1701 Jean Dodal Tarot de Marseille, as a package deal. The Colman Smith would be the featured product, but the set would be 'buy one, get one free' including the Dodal Marseille. Pam's Tarot will always be Number One, so it's a synch to work!

spoonbender	25 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: spoonbender: The WorldWideWeb is FULL of web-sites on things that the Tarot of Marseilles deals with. They may not have the title "Tarot of Marseilles" on them, but they touch on themes that one finds in the Tarot of Marseilles and that is sufficient! Yes, that's true! I hadn't looked at it that way. I'd still like to see more information about the Minor Arcana though :(... Quote: Personally, I would fight against the Marseilles becoming a "fashion" - in one year and out the other, just like the majority of the decks that are churned out each year. I know what you mean - I would also hate to see that happen to the Tarot de Marseille. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's best to try to reach a mean between two extremes, with information about the Tarot de Marseille more readily available to those who need it... without the authenticity and integrity of the Tarot de Marseille compromised. And you know, I like the idea of your stickers - very intruiging indeed :). Spoon

bodhran	25 Jan 2005
I must admit I would have bought a Marseille deck much sooner had there been more English books for it. Although the internet is great, I still would rather curl up with a cup of hot tea and a book. What got me to buy Hadar's deck? The mystery -- knowing there was and is a difference between the RW and it, and wanting to see what the differences were. Bodhran

Clau	25 Jan 2005
Personally, I don't see any need to market the TdM or to make it available to the masses. It sounds like we're talking about Coca Cola or Microsoft here, and I really don't think it's quite the same. When people have the inclination or the desire to know more, all they have to do is to look for it. There are MILLIONS of ways to get in touch with what you want to learn, as Diana said, the internet is a great place to look for info about most anything. Plus having such a great exchange site such as this, is far easier to find decks and books about any tarot related issue. There is a HUGE thread on the TdM...do you really need more? As dear Diana said there is "No need to sponnfeed people", it's just a matter of stop being lazy and wishing everything you want is already done by someone else and all you have to do is to go buy it.... Am I already off topic? LOL Blessings, Clau

Moongold	25 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: As an enlightened entrepreneur, I would initiate a promotion, offering an historically accurate 1909 Pamela Colman Smith, and the 1701 Jean Dodal Tarot de Marseille, as a package deal. The Colman Smith would be the featured product, but the set would be 'buy one, get one free' including the Dodal Marseille. Pam's Tarot will always be Number One, so it's a synch to work! For serious marketing, I think this is a great idea. A good book in English would be an essential part of this package. Diana wrote: The WorldWideWeb is FULL of web-sites on things that the Tarot of Marseilles deals with. They may not have the title "Tarot of Marseilles" on them, but they touch on themes that one finds in the Tarot of Marseilles and that is sufficient! Yesterday, I was wandering around a web-site on clothing in the Middle Ages for instance. The other day, on the Numerology in the Middle Ages web-site. And previously, on an alchemy web-site. You wouldn't have enough time in a life-time to read all the stuff that is written on the Tarot of Marseilles without having the word "Tarot of Marseilles" written in it. That's what I mean also by "seek and thee shalt find"..... Diana, you are speaking as one very familiar with the Marseille. The audience you want to reach is not familiar at all, and they are used to having books. To most Tarot beginners, books are essential, despite the fact that some people say they don’t need them. It’s wonderful that they don’t but I think most of us find them necessary at the beginning. I think you would find many more people on Aeclectic would have the Marseille if there was a book by someone with credibility available.

Diana	25 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: Diana, you are speaking as one very familiar with the Marseille. The audience you want to reach is not familiar at all, and they are used to having books. Ah dear Moongold.... which audience does one want to reach? The masses, or those who feel an irresistible inner urge to discover the mystery behind the veil? But okay... I accept that some people want to have a starting point. So inside each Tarot deck, we'll put a little piece of paper (hidden within a fold somewhere) with a link to the Historical Forum of the Aeclectic Tarot Forums. We could also give them my e-mail address (LOL!!!!! - only kidding!!! :D :D ).

Moongold	25 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: Ah dear Moongold.... which audience does one want to reach? The masses, or those who feel an irresistible inner urge to discover the mystery behind the veil? That IS the basic question actually. Which underlies my own question (and that of others too) as to why you would want to market the Marseille. By the way, there are many in the masses who are interested in mystery and the inner door. :) They may not have had the privilege of being exposed to the paths leading to it yet.

Clau	25 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: By the way, there are many in the masses who are interested in mystery and the inner door. :) They may not have had the privilege of being exposed to the paths leading to it yet. Whenever is their time they will be exposed, as it happened to you, and me, and everybody else who has been exposed. There is a time for everybody and everything, and as of course you know, the universe has a strange sense of timing.... Back to earth.... Doesn't anybody here dare to write something about Tarot of Marseille? Tarot bear wrote his own book on tarot...and many more on this forum have. I'm not sure why there isn't a god book about this in english...Wonder why don't they translate Jodo's book....Maybe if all interested Northamericans would start bugging some editorial about it... blessings, Clau

Rosanne	25 Jan 2005
I have reread the thread opener and have rethought my original response in light of some of the posts. I would be put off purchasing a deck if the advertising indicated I would be joining some exclusive group. I would be more inclined(as I am one of the Masses) to purchase a deck that made play of the fact that this particular system, although historic- works. Yes I would include a reputable book in English. I like the idea of a twin pack also. As one who fell into Tarot by accident( some would say cosmic design) I did not know about Marseille as a system. I could only get Rider-Waite. Until I had a computer- that avenue was closed as well. So here am I in the New World, a collector, a reader,a computer owner, a one world believer,a inclusivist and a seeker. You could just make sure, in whatever format that the deck WAS AVAILABLE. Regards Rosanne

Scion	25 Jan 2005
Awesome replies so far!! And interesting that the first focal topic was exclusivity/inclusivity... I have a couple thoughts that the thread shook loose: One great lesson we learn from Shakespeare: you have to write to all of your audience. Poetry makes for greatness, but the smart artist also entertains the groundlings.... not separately but simultaneously. Kings and clowns. Monsters and melody. Temperance exercised intemperately. To take any great work at only one level is to diminish it... and to what end? All great works of art have endured because they function on several levels. Shakespeare wasn't writing for poetic geniuses exclusively or for mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers expressly, and yet both groups and the spectrum between can enjoy and explore his plays 500 years later. And like Tarot it takes either a little effort or a lot, depending on what you want to invest. Reaping what you sow and all that. The same could be true of religion: every religion that has survived beyond its charismatic founders can be accessed at both exoteric and esoteric levels. Don't forget that Christianity starts out as a mystery religion of the late Roman Empire. The syncretism observable in the New Testament testifies to the free borrowing going on between the mystery cults of the period. But Christianity spread as an exoteric tradition. The initial schism between Pauline and Gnostic Christianity was critical and illuminating, because Gnostic Christianity is arguably closer to the teachings of "Jesus" but Paul's reinterpretation and repackaging of the literal "Son of God" propelled Christianity towards a cultural dominance that remains 2000 years later. People like things literal. Frankly, Gnosticism is hard work. Pauline Christianity is simpler and more accessible to larger numbers of people. But that doesn't mean either has to be "false" and that doesn't stop searchers from digging deeper. And not digging doesn't stop a tree from having roots. Some people read the RWS with the LWB, but there is research and history available for English-speakers who want to dig deeper. I agree with Diana (and other esotericists) that people have to find their way, but I think her impish Albigensian Gnostic nature is at work there. Otherwise why would she lament the absence of the Marseille in the "Top Ten" each year, a COMPLETELY exoteric concern. :) If she didn't want to bring people to the Marseille, why post about its relative unpopularity? I curious (and bewildered) why Jodorowsky's book (or Sedillot's, etc) hasn't been translated and made available... but I can also understand embattled publisher's logic. Unless Llewellyn or US Games could identify a ripe market, why bother? And why make the deck available unless the demand is there? Circles within circles which lead back to the original question, so I'll shut up now... Scion

tmgrl2	25 Jan 2005
A book... OK, Diana, admit it. Your copies of Klea's books are dog-earred, pages falling out, and certainly you like Sedillot...and have delved enough into Jodo and Hadar to have an opinion about these books, and probably have glanced through Darche and formed an opinion on this book. I can't say that I would have enjoyed my journey into the Tarot de Marseille quite as much as I have, had I not had my books in French available, if only, at times, to say that I often disagree with what I read there as well (and I am no expert). Sooooo.....the English-speaking population is saying that MAYBE having at least ONE good book in English wouldn't be a bad idea.... What I find interesting still at least in my small circle here in the U.S. is that people still associate Tarot essentially with the "fortune telling" rep, divinatory....and many say: "I'm afraid what I will find out." My principal had a reading that totally freaked her out by someone using frightening predictions. So... A deck, with a brief but interesting summary on the box, and nearby, a book in English....Sedillot's would be a nice start...of all the ones I have that one I feel would be best suited to reach a mass population. I agree people can search...if they have computers and the internet. Diana is right. There is a wealth of information on the cyberhighways. Starting out with one book available, though, would be a good idea. Doesn't have to be "packaged" with a deck. It could just sit there on the shelf of other Tarot decks and books and hopefully draw in those who are curious. As long as the box contained some basic information about the "ancient" Tarot de Marseille..... Whenever I browse in "regular" bookstores and check out Tarot sections, they always have a RWS and some of our decks that are clones and, popular, in that they probably shelve what has been selling. What really amazes me is that when I go into my metaphysical shop, which has loads of decks hanging from chains along a top shelf, I don't believe there is a single TdM....Now I will have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure there isn't one. How sad. terri aka "mom" P.S. Thanks, Scion, for starting such a fun thread. We TdM fans needed this!

Moongold	25 Jan 2005
Scion wrote: One great lesson we learn from Shakespeare: you have to write to all of your audience. Poetry makes for greatness, but the smart artist also entertains the groundlings.... not separately but simultaneously. Kings and clowns. Monsters and melody. Temperance exercised intemperately. To take any great work at only one level is to diminish it... and to what end? All great works of art have endured because they function on several levels. Shakespeare wasn't writing for poetic geniuses exclusively or for mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers expressly, and yet both groups and the spectrum between can enjoy and explore his plays 500 years later. And like Tarot it takes either a little effort or a lot, depending on what you want to invest. Reaping what you sow and all that. Scion, that is a valid point but you have missed the point I think. :). There is little written in English. If there was the Marseille may have far greater accessibility to people who only speak or read English. Sure we can dig and delve on the internet but not everyone has that capacity. I think the Marseille deck is for the common person as well as for those interested in Christian Hermeticism et al. There is very little written for the common person! Shakespeare, the Bible and the Koran are all available English and other languages. They also have many supporting texts available in English and other languages. There are also many other ways they are accessible to people. Scion wrote: Circles within circles which lead back to the original question, so I'll shut up now... This is why, tongue in cheek, I mentioned niche markets! Not because of the same exclusivity themes that run here from time to time, but because serious marketing would analyze the market and probably decide to target an exclusive group. My organization as just been through such a process to identify the most effective group of people to target to fundraise for our services for people with alcohol and other drug problems. Not an easy group for whom to raise money. With expert help we identified what was special about our approach, how we could keep our integrity in the search for financial support, and WHO and how to reach people who have money that they night prepared to give to an unglamorous cause. I think another point you missed related to cultural aspects. You have to consider them in some way in such a campaign. And some of the best ways are about providing literature that is appropriate, taking the approach that Fulgour suggested, or using another gimmicks or approaches which take that into account. Why did I get involved in this thread? It is very, very hot here. Easy weather in which to become argumentative :). Truthfully, it means little to me personally. I know enough about Tarot to find my own way now and the timing, as Clau so beautifully said, was right for me. I can read a little French as well so am better off than most. Thanks Scion. I have a sense that you may have become interested in the Marseille because of the original polemic. Don’t mind a bit of polemic myself. Keeps me on my toes and helps me learn. Many blessings

Fulgour	25 Jan 2005
Scion wrote: What supporting literature or information would you solicit, commission, or translate for the untapped American market? As anyone who has personally chosen to pursue an education beyond the mandatory grades knows, all that school can ever really do is teach you how to learn ~ knowledge itself is static. So a book on "how to read the Marseille" would only be useful for learning enough to pretty much ignore any book altogether. Do we need a "Marseille Book" in English for modern readers to enhance sales and thus popularity of this historical deck? Sure. Pick up the phone and contact any out of work author for hire. You might even get lucky, and find the new Eden Gray at home.

Moongold	25 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: As anyone who has personally chosen to pursue an education beyond the mandatory grades knows, all that school can ever really do is teach you how to learn ~ knowledge itself is static. So a book on "how to read the Marseille" would only be useful for learning enough to pretty much ignore any book altogether. Do we need a "Marseille Book" in English for modern readers to enhance sales and thus popularity of this historical deck? Sure. Pick up the phone and contact any out of work author for hire. You might even get lucky, and find the new Eden Gray at home. A book doesn't need to be on "How to read". One of the best books I know is Rachel Pollack's Complete illustrated guide to Tarot. It has everything in it a beginner to Tarot could possibly want and it was a very similar book which brought me to Tarot in the first place. This book laid seeds for further growth. This is the kind of thing that I mean and the need has been mentioned often enough to make one convinced there is some kind of need. Education does teach you how to think, write and do many other things. But it is also about knowledge to some degree.

Fulgour	25 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: This is the kind of thing that I mean and the need has been mentioned often enough to make one convinced there is some kind of need. I agree with you completely, but this is about Marketing. There could be a collectors edition in a more about vein, but coming out with a masterpiece here is a long stretch. A good, comprehensive Marseille book in English may be an impossibility under the best circumstances, but it'd be nice to have even passable attempts now to help form a composite viewpoint: A good topic for a new thread.

HudsonGray	25 Jan 2005
Well, marketing is all about selling the sizzle, not the steak. If you're targeting the masses, there's nothing here so far that would make the average person stop and pick up one of these decks should they see it on an end cap display at a store. Emphasize the historical connections? I don't think the masses care about that unless there's mystery and intrigue associated. Did they see it on a hot tv show? Can they tie the tarot in to other 'good feeling' things in their life? What sort of upbeat things can you say about the Marseille decks? It's hard. Really hard. Demistify it and you loose the feeling of 'special' along with any 'devil cards' association. People want to feel they're doing something risky or daring, on the cutting edge, with new things. If you push the ancient mystery connections, you alienate the Christian groups quite often. And how do you market to men who think completely different than women do? Two different ad campaigns? Three if you're focusing on teens as well? Would flashy graphics work or implied peer interest in a new 'fad'? Redesigned boxes with metallic colors? Your campaign would have to be very broad range. Yeah, it's a hard one to try to sell. How would the Apprentices do it for Donald Trump?

Fulgour	25 Jan 2005
HudsonGray wrote: Well, marketing is all about selling the sizzle, not the steak. If you're targeting the masses, there's nothing here so far that would make the average person stop and pick up one of these decks should they see it on an end cap display at a store. True. But when Scion said "masses" I thought he only meant the ten thousand or so of us anyway.

Scion	26 Jan 2005
Absolutely, Fulgour. I was thinking in terms of the RWS-focussed masses of tarotphiles who are wary of Marseille for various reasons...

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
bodhran wrote: I must admit I would have bought a Marseille deck much sooner had there been more English books for it. Although the internet is great, I still would rather curl up with a cup of hot tea and a book. What got me to buy Hadar's deck? The mystery -- knowing there was and is a difference between the RW and it, and wanting to see what the differences were. Bodhran This was not dissimilar to my own experience. I think the Marseille is there for those of us who wish to explore it once we understand more about the Tarot overall. The Marseille is not recommended to mewhen I enquired about learning Tarot. The shop where I purchased my first decks didn't have it. Still doesn't. Until things change, others will also most likely have this experience.

Diana	26 Jan 2005
There are no books available, because there is no market. I have discussed this with people in the past. It's not a handful of Aeclecticians which make a publisher's ears prick up. As to a translation of a book: A decent translation of a book costs a fortune. And I mean a fortune. This already puts off any publisher unless he's dead sure he's going to sell. And from what writers have informed me, after all the money has been taken left and right by all the middle-men, the writers get only a few measly crumbs from the table - not enough even to put butter on their bread. (I'm not talking about Harry Potter stuff here, I'm talking about the small market for Tarot of Marseilles books in English.) There are also big problems translating stuff from French into the Anglo-Saxon market (due to copyright and other issues) and most editors don't touch this stuff with a ten-foot-pole and this more especially with the American market due to the different laws in each of the American States which complicate matters immensely. Francophone publishing laws are much more simple and more hassle-free. I doubt even Jodorowsky would find a publisher interested in his book. Sédillot neither. It's not tomorrow that you'll be seeing a translated book on the markets. (If you guys only knew how much rubbish I have read in books and how much I have to UNLEARN. I have started my Tarot of Marseilles studies all over again recently. Starting from scratch. Really from scratch. Without any books which have on their cover "The Tarot of Marseilles". I am seeking my knowledge elsewhere - and I find it all over. In the flowers, the trees, the stars, the earth, the air, the sky, the heavens, the people I meet..... And I am finding gold where I never even knew there was gold. It is Tarot (with a capital "T") gold. The answers to the mystery of the Tarot of Marseilles are NOT to be found in books on the subject written by other people. You can find some answers there, sure, there are some gems - but you will find more answers in other books that relate to the the Tarot.) THE ANSWERS ARE TO BE FOUND IN YOUR HEART AND EVERYWHERE YOUR HEART TAKES YOU. Because your heart is where the As de Coupes is to be found. And the As de Coupes is the Holy Grail that we all seek until the day of eternity.) Moongold: My suggestion for promoting the Tarot of Marseilles may alienate some people as you mentioned. But I bet you it would intrigue others. I know that such an advertisement would have caught my attention. And alienating some people is not something that really bothers me. Which is probably why I'm not in the Marketing Business. :D

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: I think the Marseille deck is for the common person as well as for those interested in Christian Hermeticism et al. There is very little written for the common person! Shakespeare, the Bible and the Koran are all available English and other languages. They also have many supporting texts available in English and other languages. There are also many other ways they are accessible to people. A better analogy would be to say that, just as Shakespeare comes alive to us on the stage, and not in an early 17th-century folio (and far less in crib notes!), then Marseille comes alive in a reading. Marseille was not made for study, above all, but for use, for interaction, for opening up the heart and the imagination in ways it hadn't before, for sharpening the mind and the focus. I don't know how many people in Japan read French, Spanish or Italian, yet there seems to be a group of people out there who love the Tarot de Marseille. To all who are tempted to read with Marseille - as we say in French, throw yourselves in the water! Follow that crazy fool, and don't worry about the pips with no people on them - open up to them, observe the patterns, find out about numbers (people can read about pythagoran or medieval numerology on the net or in books) - above all, let your mind be transported by those amazing flower-and-suit filled cards. Books would be good - though I can tell you that the best books on the Tarot de Marseille are not easy reads, with the possible exception of Carole Sédillot - hers would be a good introductory book to translate. Jodo's book is magnificent, personal and challenging: it's a shame it isn't translated into English (it was translated into French from the original Spanish), but it would be a huge work to do so.

Fulgour	26 Jan 2005
With an introduction and conclusion with sample spreads, a book featuring an image of each card on one page and a brief description on another would already be 200 pages. Add a chapter showing how the Rider-Waite Smith images actually help to understand each of the Marseille cards and you could easily pass the magical 300 pages for a bestseller.

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: Add a chapter showing how the Rider-Waite Smith images actually help to understand each of the Marseille cards and you could easily pass the magical 300 pages for a bestseller. But it would be a travesty. The RWS images in no way help! or do you want new readers to the Marseille think the III Epées is about a broken heart? Better to give them a quick introduction to the numerology associated with the Marseille.

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: THE ANSWERS ARE TO BE FOUND IN YOUR HEART AND EVERYWHERE YOUR HEART TAKES YOU. Because your heart is where the As de Coupes is to be found. And the As de Coupes is the Holy Grail that we all seek until the day of eternity.) Moongold: My suggestion for promoting the Tarot of Marseilles may alienate some people as you mentioned. But I bet you it would intrigue others. I know that such an advertisement would have caught my attention. And alienating some people is not something that really bothers me. Which is probably why I'm not in the Marketing Business. :D Oy...oy....Diana ~ I think you may be right about the heart. It's good to know that there are still mysteries and that quite difficult culture of the commercial world hasn't overwhelmed us all yet. The better answer to Scion's question might be this: Perhaps the Tarot including the Marseille, doesn't need marketing. It works by attraction and that is ultimately the best way. People who find it and really want it stay with it. It's too precious a gift to be commercialized in the modern manner. :)

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
Scion wrote: Absolutely, Fulgour. I was thinking in terms of the RWS-focussed masses of tarotphiles who are wary of Marseille for various reasons... I thought you meant the broader. community, not just the Tarotphiles. My earlier responses would have been different had I thought you were simply referring to tarotphiles :).

Fulgour	26 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: But it would be a travesty. The RWS images in no way help! or do you want new readers to the Marseille think the III Epées is about a broken heart? Better to give them a quick introduction to the numerology associated with the Marseille. Then we are almost ready to go into production on the 2-Pack. You can write the illustrated text (including comparisons) and Moongold (if she agrees) can do the packaging. I'll copyright it.

Rosanne	26 Jan 2005
Where do some of you get the majic number of ten thousand tarotphiles from? Apparently the Gilded Tarot has sold ten thousand first printing. I think there are many more people into Tarot than that figure indicates. I would imagine that Printing Houses that specialise in Tarot would close up shop if they knew their market was static.

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: Then we are almost ready to go into production on the 2-Pack. You can write the illustrated text (including comparisons) and Moongold (if she agrees) can do the packaging. I'll copyright it. I would package each separately in a soft leather box with an appropriate motif etched in to the case. We suggested something like this to JMD last year but he did not take us up on the suggestion. At that time I saw him as the Yves Montand of the Marseille hehehehe........

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: Then we are almost ready to go into production on the 2-Pack. You can write the illustrated text (including comparisons) and Moongold (if she agrees) can do the packaging. I'll copyright it. I fell for that one hook line and sinker! Well done, Fulgour - OK, when do we start? You can do the sacred geometry/Chaldean connection stuff (an esoteric chapter at the back ;)) Diana can write about Mary Magdelen (catch the Dan Brown Brigade). Jmd about "changing your life with the Marseille" (;)) (a spiritually-based self-help chapter). We can cast our nets further than tarophiles here, guys! Copyright in the name of Friends of Marseille?

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Take note that if a 2-Pack, i.e. a Marseilles along with a RWCS gets published, there is one person who will not hesitate to say publically and very loudly what I think of the whole concept which I find most distasteful indeed. I'm not a Fundamentalist for nothing.... You'll never get me participating in such a masquerade.

Fulgour	26 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: Copyright in the name of Friends of Marseille? [/font][/i]

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: Take note that if a 2-Pack, i.e. a Marseilles along with a RWCS gets published, there is one person who will not hesitate to say publically and very loudly what I think of the whole concept which I find most distasteful indeed. I'm not a Fundamentalist for nothing.... You'll never get me participating in such a masquerade. This is all alittle gratuitous on my part now because I've decided that the Marseille does not need marketing. :) But it it was to go ahead - just imagine - what about making a threesome and include Thoth. You could make this a special edition - Tarot Classics - so to speak.

Rosanne	26 Jan 2005
Diana- a marseillarade -a marseillerade.Would that make it better?

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Moongold: I love black humour. As long as we realise that this is a funny joke, then I'll laugh along with you. If people think it's serious, I will put on my Stern Mask again and make a sacrifice to the tarot gods to appease them. (They need a lot of appeasing - I spend HOURS each week trying to think up ways to make them happy again.)

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: Moongold: I love black humour. As long as we realise that this is a funny joke, then I'll laugh along with you. If people think it's serious, I will put on my Stern Mask again and make a sacrifice to the tarot gods to appease them. (They need a lot of appeasing - I spend HOURS each week trying to think up ways to make them happy again.) I am being quite Gothic ... as Gothic as one can be when it is 83F at 9.30pm and the winds are whipping up outside, hopefully bringing the promised storm from the west. I went down to see La Lune before but she was sheltering behind curtains of clouds.

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Rosanne wrote: Diana- a marseillarade -a marseillerade.Would that make it better? I will consider this and let you know whether this is acceptable or not. ;)

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: You'll never get me participating in such a masquerade. It's a game, Diana, a little imagnation game, exchanging ideas, trying to get them flowing. If you don't like thought of the 2-pack, then what would you propose in its stead? Many people in North America or Australia don't have kind friends or booksellers who can tell them about the Marseille. How are they to know about it? It's not about masses versus seekers. It's about finding one's way to a world-view that might not be available at all if its lovers don't make a push to diffuse it. It's easy for us, sitting in French-speaking Switzerland with Tarot de Marseille as the main deck, to say- just look on the internet. What about people who can't find a decent deck, or any deck (e.g. Rosanne), or don't even know that Marseille is there for them, and is not some ancient, foreign system with no relevance to their lives (if they know about it at all)? If the Tarot de Marseille is a democratic deck - which you often maintain - then let's do what we can to make it known. Tom Payne wrote a book :)

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: But it it was to go ahead - just imagine - what about making a threesome and include Thoth. You could make this a special edition - Tarot Classics - so to speak. I think this is a great idea ; Call it "Meet the Masters". But I fear it might be confusing. I'd rather concentrate on making Marseille the oen people turn to - first or last, it doesn't matter.

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: It's a game, Diana, a little imagnation game, exchanging ideas, trying to get them flowing. If you don't like thought of the 2-pack, then what would you propose in its stead? I know it's a game! I live with two gamers at home - not only computer-gamers, but strategic and wargame (Kriegspiel) gamers as well. My first serious boyfriend was a gamer too. Have you ever seen two gamers arguing about a tiny detail in the rules of a game? You know, whether the cannon can be shot up to mid-day inclusive, or only until the sun has reached its zenith? It is great fun to listen and to watch!!! It can last for hours, and the same subject can be brought up the next time they meet. (A little bit like some of the threads on Aeclectic, especially in the Historical section.) What would I propose instead of a 2-pack? I already mentioned what I would do in my first post, and then I made a further concession in another post. (Got to rush. I've got an appointment with my lawyer to see how far I will be able to trash publically a 2- or a 3-pack without being accused of libel or something. Got to be prepared especially if we're going to try and target the Anglo-Saxon world, and particularly the American world which is such a litigious society.)

Scion	26 Jan 2005
All in good fun. :) Before the topic of the intro text gets discarded I want to throw something into the mix. Bookwise, what if we were talking about something a little different? If we're talking about planting the seed or opening the door a little, maybe something idiosyncratic is in order. How about a book that allowed for some internal contradiction... a collection of opinions that never veered into fact-claims?: 1) An Eden Grayish third giving a card per page with some historical readings like Butler's Dictionary of the Tarot. For each card explinging why it is NOT readable like the RWS deck... Maybe use Pixie's artwork but draw a circle with a line over it each time as a reminder. }) Place this section right up front to appeal to the casual browser. I imagine that this is the section that would give Diana hives. :D But then! 2) A few chapters offering differing modes of reading the TdM by some of the established wags, either excerpting from existing texts or commissioned in English. And I'd open this section (or maybe even the book) with a one sentence chapter from Diana: "Everything in this book is a lie" and let people puzzle over that one for a while. In fact, the whiff of bending the rules, piercing the veil, and internal contradiction is actually intriguing and useful to our pitch. And the combo of wisdom, sexiness, and humor makes the TdM seem immediately hip to the new millenium megashopper. 3) A plump section of historical essays that shamelessly take opposing positions to whet the appetite for further research: a little Language of the Birds, some Pythagoras, some Magdelene, maybe a whiff of Templar. A few pages of primary text: Casanova's anecdote, the Trionfi references from Northern Italy, some sermons against, etc. Drop in some contemporaneous images and medieval poetry without explaining or chewing them into pap. I agree that carefully ordered top-down instruction books are often valueless, but at the same time having them available makes the Tarot initially less daunting for those who feel the "call." Translation is expensive, but what if you commissioned pieces in English and translated smaller excerpts from existing works? I'm a big fan of being able to make up my own mind when researching. Anthology might serve both needs, a gentle opener to those who like a hand held at the beginning, and some meatier indications for further research. If Llewellyn could identify a market and a "spin" for the title, why couldn't they do a "Topics in Tarot" text on Marseille? You can initially package this "Special Topics in Tarot" edition in hardcover with either the aforementioned two-pack {b]or[/b] a commemorative Marseille deck. We might even be able to convince Camoin to donate all the decks if we let him put in his own chapter about "carrying on the tradition" in our little anthology. }) The wheels of the Tarot gods grind slowly... Scion

Clau	26 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: Perhaps the Tarot including the Marseille, doesn't need marketing. It works by attraction and that is ultimately the best way. People who find it and really want it stay with it. It's too precious a gift to be commercialized in the modern manner. :) AMEN. Blessings, Clau

Scion	26 Jan 2005
Clau wrote: Quote: Originally Posted by Moongold Perhaps the Tarot including the Marseille, doesn't need marketing. It works by attraction and that is ultimately the best way. People who find it and really want it stay with it. It's too precious a gift to be commercialized in the modern manner. AMEN. Blessings, Clau Yes. Agreed. But the question wasn't if it should be, but rather, if it were to be marketed? I was interested in people's approach if they were to be assigned the task, not whether they would seek the task out. Scion

lark	26 Jan 2005
I think what is needed here. And is as plain as the nose on everyones face is a new "Idiot's Guide to the Marseille." Always a nice mix of authors adding their voice to the books. Bright orange cover.....very eye catching. Big, soft cover format ....makes it affordable. Also the possibility of a deck/ book set combo. Yes, yes the more I think about it the more I'm sure this is the way to go. My own Idiot's Guide to Tarot is dog eared and well used.

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Scion wrote: 2) A few chapters offering differing modes of reading the TdM by some of the established wags, either excerpting from existing texts or commissioned in English. And I'd open this section (or maybe even the book) with a one sentence chapter from Diana: " Everything in this book is a lie " and let people puzzle over that one for a while. That's most interesting, Scion. The few people whom I have attempted to "teach" the Tarot of Marseilles have been greeted with the following words: "I want to make one thing quite clear right from the start and that is the following: Don't believe a single word I tell you. Now, let's get cracking - we've got work to do.".

Scion	26 Jan 2005
Diana! That is spooky, but unsurprising. LOL

Fulgour	26 Jan 2005
Rosanne wrote: Where do some of you get the majic number of ten thousand tarotphiles from? This is a fantasy figure I'm in "search mode" trying to ascertain. How many true Tarot enthusiasts are there in the world today? This may be like comparing Chess set owners to actual players. Rosanne wrote: I would imagine that Printing Houses that specialise in Tarot would close up shop if they knew their market was static. A printing house is a busy little machine, and keeping it going is what the business is all about. Diversification is essential to growth and Tarot offers an attractive little niche marketplace.

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Scion wrote: The same could be true of religion: every religion that has survived beyond its charismatic founders can be accessed at both exoteric and esoteric levels. Don't forget that Christianity starts out as a mystery religion of the late Roman Empire. The syncretism observable in the New Testament testifies to the free borrowing going on between the mystery cults of the period. But Christianity spread as an exoteric tradition. The initial schism between Pauline and Gnostic Christianity was critical and illuminating, because Gnostic Christianity is arguably closer to the teachings of "Jesus" but Paul's reinterpretation and repackaging of the literal "Son of God" propelled Christianity towards a cultural dominance that remains 2000 years later. People like things literal. Frankly, Gnosticism is hard work. Pauline Christianity is simpler and more accessible to larger numbers of people. But that doesn't mean either has to be "false" and that doesn't stop searchers from digging deeper. And not digging doesn't stop a tree from having roots. Some people read the RWS with the LWB, but there is research and history available for English-speakers who want to dig deeper. I agree with Diana (and other esotericists) that people have to find their way, but I think her impish Albigensian Gnostic nature is at work there. Otherwise why would she lament the absence of the Marseille in the "Top Ten" each year, a COMPLETELY exoteric concern. :) If she didn't want to bring people to the Marseille, why post about its relative unpopularity? Okay, I'm going back to Scion's very interesting post and the parallel to Christianity. See what happened to Christianity when it became popular and when it got into the hands of some power-hungry lunatics? Just one example: remember the Inquisition? Oh my... they have never even APOLOGISED for that foul piece of history done in the name of "Christianity". It would have been better for Christianity to sink into oblivion than to become what it became. Can you imagine what a power-hungry-capitalist would do to the Marseilles if they realised there was MONEY to be made out of marketing the Marseilles? Oh dear. :( I hate to think what USGames would do to it, when I know what they did to the poor Oswald Wirth deck (may his blessèd soul rest in peace - I must remember to make a sacrifice to his defiled soul as well.) Or Lo Scarabeo... they would end up by putting four or five different languages on it, and even spelling out how many batons or swords there are on the card, so that people don't even have to COUNT them anymore, and to save them the trouble of learning how to read Roman numerals. *Diana shudders because she hopes that the big deck publishers are not reading this thread and getting smart ideas.* As to why I lament that it is not yet in the Top 10. Oh... that's just my way of annoying people... you know how so many people absolutely HATE the way I always "warble" on about the Tarot of Marseilles, and I would not want them to feel bereft of their pet hate. That would be so sad. :( :laugh: :laugh: The above paragraph is not true. It's a publicity stunt actually (I'm learning about Marketing in this thread. Aeclectic is very eclectic indeed.) The real reason is that I think the Tarot of Marseilles DESERVES to be in that Top Ten, but it's really not important at all. It has survived hundreds and hundreds of years without being Top of the Charts, and will survive a few more hundred. Which is probably not the case with 99% (or more) of the other Tarot decks that we have available at present in the shops.

Fulgour	26 Jan 2005
lark wrote: I think what is needed here. And is as plain as the nose on everyones face is a new "Idiot's Guide to the Marseille." Always a nice mix of authors adding their voice to the books. Mon Dieu! I think I may already have a copy of this: Le Guide de l'Idiot Complet de Le Tarot de Marseille and it was written by... Marcel Marceau :eek:

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Here is a short blurb for the cover of the book (if it were written) to accompany the Tarot of Marseilles in the shop (the one with the little stickers on it): "You know all those things you've learnt about the Tarot? Like all that Hierophant and High Priestess stuff, and the 10 of Swords guy lying half dead on the beach with 10 Swords sticking out of him with NO BLOOD oozing out (David Copperfield trick, right?). You know, the The Empress is your Mummy, and The Devil is the Bad Guy and part of the Axis of Evil? And all those astrological references? Well, what you need to do before you open this deck and this book, is to highlight all that knowledge you have acquired, and when it's highlighted, do a Control-X (or press delete). For safety measures, empty the bin as well. This is very very important. Once this is done, you will be able to read this deck without any pre-conceived ideas, and read this book knowing that it is only a starting point. This book does not have the pretention of teaching you anything about the Tarot of Marseilles. It'll just give you a little shove onto the Perfectly Glorious and Beautiful Road of the Tarot of Marseilles. You will create the landmarks - we are certainly not going to do the job for you. We've got our own lives to live. May your footsteps be light and may your journey be fruitful. Go well...."

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: As to why I lament that it is not yet in the Top 10. Oh... that's just my way of annoying people... you know how so many people absolutely HATE the way I always "warble" on about the Tarot of Marseilles, and I would not want them to feel bereft of their pet hate. That would be so sad. :( :laugh: :laugh: The above paragraph is not true. It's a publicity stunt actually (I'm learning about Marketing in this thread. Aeclectic is very eclectic indeed.) The real reason is that I think the Tarot of Marseilles DESERVES to be in that Top Ten, but it's really not important at all. It has survived hundreds and hundreds of years without being Top of the Charts, and will survive a few more hundred. Which is probably not the case with 99% (or more) of the other Tarot decks that we have available at present in the shops. Diana: I don't think it is important either. What I hear you saying is that what IS important is direct and personal experience of the Marseille. You feel it is somehow damaging for someone to come by way of another school of Tarot or via someone else's thoughts. You feel that there is a high risk of their experience of the Marseille being contaminated by other schools of Tarot and by academic or other treatises. Fortunately or unfortunately, many of us do come by way of other paths because we didn't grow up in France or Europe and didn't encounter the Marseilles until much later in our Tarot lives. Some of us still want to retain connections with other types of Tarot. This is our own particular journey: our own gnosis, our own direct and personal experience and you know that. This has been said to you before: Why does not all this lovely energy go into readings or writing about the Marseille rather than stirring up mischievous debates? On your Bateleur's table there is a big pudding bowl and you keep stirring away there at some mysterious mixture. I am curious to know when, if ever, you will put the mixture in the oven and serve the finished product. There is value in the debates. They draw the Marseille to the attention of others. That everyone ultimately makes their own cake you've stated often enough in other places. Well. let them follow their own recipes. The ultimate determinent is what Rosanne actually said some threads or posts back: the quality of the cake. I could ask for more thrash and thresh threads and I see that there are more advice threads. I guess you get energy from a warm kitchen and hot debates, however, and why should that change? They do make us all think and we all join in. I do not want to see Tarot highly commercialised either but I think that is unlikely to happen. On the other hand, it would be wonderful to see a world which is more open to the unexplainable; and to more unusual ways of arriving at knowledge.

Scion	26 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: On the other hand, it would be wonderful to see a world which is more open to the unexplainable; and to more unusual ways of arriving at knowledge. Moongold, a beautiful thought eloquently expressed. As my mother's Wiccan friends would say: So mote it be! Diana wrote: :laugh: :laugh: The above paragraph is not true. It's a publicity stunt actually (I'm learning about Marketing in this thread. Aeclectic is very eclectic indeed.) The real reason is that I think the Tarot of Marseilles DESERVES to be in that Top Ten, but it's really not important at all. It has survived hundreds and hundreds of years without being Top of the Charts, and will survive a few more hundred. Which is probably not the case with 99% (or more) of the other Tarot decks that we have available at present in the shops. As someone once said (and maybe it was me :)) : Art is important. Importance is not. Scion

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: Why does not all this lovely energy go into readings or writing about the Marseille rather than stirring up mischievous debates? On your Bateleur's table there is a big pudding bowl and you keep stirring away there at some mysterious mixture. I am curious to know when, if ever, you will put the mixture in the oven and serve the finished product. Here's a very tasty pudding cooked by Diana. One of the best puddings it's ever been my privilege to help with, albeit as mere commis-chef: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35160 If this is mischief, I want some too. You can't have forgotten, Moongold? Actually, I'd say this reading thread is proably a pretty good advertisement for the Tarot de Marseille, bringing together veterans and beginners, French-speakers and non-french-speakers. Everyone who wanted to jump in, in fact. I wish there were more of that kind.

Scion	26 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: Here's a very tasty pudding cooked by Diana. One of the best puddings it's ever been my privilege to help with, albeit as mere commis-chef: Amazing thread that Thrash&Thresh! How have I been missing those? Thank you so much for posting that link... NOw that I have a couple good Marseilles, I think it's time I start poking around more in "Let's Marseille!" Helvetica wrote: Actually, I'd say this reading thread is proably a pretty good advertisement for the Tarot de Marseille, bringing together veterans and beginners, French-speakers and non-french-speakers. Everyone who wanted to jump in, in fact. Self-reflexive advertising, huh? The Worm Ourobouros. The best way to market the Marseille may be to ask how to market the Marseille. LOL Busted. ;) Scion

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
Scion wrote: Self-reflexive advertising, huh? The Worm Ourobouros. The best way to market the Marseille may be to ask how to market the Marseille. I think I'll do just that! Then I hope for some vigorous contributions from all :) Learning by doing, and all that.

Diana	26 Jan 2005
Pudding??? :eek: Bread maybe. But pudding? Imagine if it's a Christmas Pudding. The marketing guys will have to speak of "Holiday Pudding" to suit the American market. I mean, fun and games is one thing. Talking about Pudding and Bateleurs is really too much! You see, it's not only the mixing that is important, Moongold. It is the kneading, and the waiting for the dough to rise. It requires so many human qualities to make bread. Skill and patience are two of them. The Bateleur is not only skillful but he is patient too. See how he waits for the PRECISE moment to do his conjuring trick and vanish? Pudding indeed.

Moongold	26 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: Here's a very tasty pudding cooked by Diana. One of the best puddings it's ever been my privilege to help with, albeit as mere commis-chef: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35160 If this is mischief, I want some too. You can't have forgotten, Moongold? No, I haven't forgotten and this is exactly what I am asking for more of. To extend the metaphor I had seen this as the cake , not the pudding LOL. I had forgotten that Americans and English often use the two interchangeably. Yes - I would love more of this kind of demonstration of the Marseilles than endless arguments about good, better, best - the latter being a bitter-sweet or turgidly repetitive mix which too often results indigestion, dough fights, deleted posts and closed threads. Often (but not always) the greatest attraction is example - the cake, as Rosanne put it (I think she actually said wheat). The ideal product is like that reading for which you have kindly provided the link. More of this? Very definitely :).

Fudugazi	26 Jan 2005
This pudding/bread conversation is putting me to sleep - night all! Why don't you start a threshing thashing kneading thread, Moongold - best way to see this very special kind of marketing (that isn't marketing) happen ;)

Sophie-David	26 Jan 2005
Although we have now ended up in the kitchen waiting for the bread to rise, this has been a very entertaining and insightful thread! Not being yet a converted one, I hesitate to post here, but... Perhaps I am a sample from the prospective market. And I'm afraid I have to agree that I'm not going to be marketed into the TdM. It may well be that I will be joining in Let's Marseille! one day, but it will be from my own internal needs and desires, probably waking up one day from a surprising dream. :) But if/when I do, I am sure I will find a lot of my info. here at ATF, but I really would like a well written book. So that's it, with all this talent here, one of you needs to write one! Just for me - and a few thousand others. :) Cheers David

Rosanne	26 Jan 2005
Thank you Scion for this thread that brought a great cast out into the light.I was hoping this play would rise to great entertainment and by accident great insight. To the cast - each part was played with expected skill. Diana, you wee devoted lamb- you excell at being a naysaying Taniwha (pretend monster who really cares)Helvetica who in the vein of a writers writer, is a seekers seeker(Kupukupu).Then there is Fulgour- a pithy Tohunga(talking stick elder)Moongold is the ultimate Patu-Pairehe(a beneficent sprite).Scion you were the Patokotoko( a Game played with a peice of string and lure)I loved every word. Marseilles as another route to my life in Tarot holds even more excitement now and as was suggested to market the deck takes only the question "how could we market the deck?" This round table discussion is called in my land a Hui (come together).In return all I have to offer is a Waiata(song) of Thanks and Regard, Rosanne

Rusty Neon	27 Jan 2005
Sophie-David wrote: But if/when I do, I am sure I will find a lot of my info. here at ATF, but I really would like a well written book . I confess that most of the books I have on the Tarot de Marseille are in French; however, there are some books available in English. For example: A good book on the major arcana is Oswald Wirth's _Le tarot des imagiers du moyen-âge_, translated in English as _Tarot of the Magicians_. The book is on his deck, a reworking of the Tarot de Marseille, rather than on the TdM deck per se; however, Wirth's book is highly influential among at least a subset of Francophone tarotists who use the TdM. Many of his ideas and interpretations may be of interest in connection with use of the TdM. I also understand that Fred Gettings' book _The Book of Tarot_ is also good in its coverage of the TdM major arcana. Many of us are ordering ATS's reprint of _Tarot Symbolism_, the out-of-print classic by Robert O'Neill. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/books/tarot-symbolism/ As well, O'Neill has written more recent essays on the iconology of early Tarot decks: http://att.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/

Moongold	27 Jan 2005
I forgot Sally Nicholls' book Jung and Tarot which is also on the Marseille major arcana but with a very Jungian perspective. Nevertheless it is a great book! And Irene Gad's Tarot and Individuation is excellent as well. Major Arcana only. And of course Meditations on the Tarot by Unknown Author (Tomberg?) is quite difficult but a must have. All are in English.

Fulgour	27 Jan 2005
I have a Moemoea of a Marae where Wairua is like Whanau. ~Fulgour

Sophie-David	27 Jan 2005
Ah, Moongold, Jung and Tarot and Tarot and Individuation are of course right up my street, and I've had my eye on them for a little while. Thank you for the recommendation, I appreciate your opinion on them. Whether or not I actually want to read with the TdM, I think I might be interested in Tarot Symbolism Rusty, after reading JMD's review. So I'm going to put that one in the future consideration list, thank you also. Somewhat a question of money, but to a greater extent time - I have built up a lifetime of backlogs in esoteric and psychological study so I really have to weigh priorities. Thanks again! David

Rosanne	27 Jan 2005
ahh Fulgour, you cool dude, your dream is my dream. I have managed to acquire quickly Tarot and Individuation Dr Irene Gad/Meditations on the Tarot(picked up tomorrow) which I will read and take with a grain of salt(and deny that I have read anything of worth as proscribed). When I get my much awaited Fournier (now 77 days away) although I will feign nonchalance, I will be pleased as punch. Regards Rosanne

Fudugazi	27 Jan 2005
Well, I have done that reading on how to bring Marseille to those who don't know it/reject it: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=434601#post434601 It needs a fair bit of tweaking if only to come back to methods! I encourage everyone to jump in! :)

Fulgour	27 Jan 2005
I have a Moemoea of a Marae where Wairua is like Whanau. Moemoea - Vision or dream Marae - A gathering place Wairua - Spiritualness Whanau - Family :) http://www.vuw.ac.nz/international/studentlife/glossary_maori.html

Scion	30 Jan 2005
So I just reread the thread, and thought some stuff might be worth looking at again. The case of the missing Marseille text seems to be the initial stumbliung block, coupled with the unavailability of the decks. It is curious that Llewellyn or US Games hasn't done some kind of a boxed set with a companion book for the Marseilles. Sets are sold that have nonscenic minors... But then again the Marseilles images have been in the public domain, which undercuts any publisher's muscle. But there are the new revised decks that have surfaced in the last few years. A publisher could work out an agreement with Camoin or (more likely) Hadar, each of whom has fresh copywright on their decks because of their own revisions/contributions to the images. For publisher and creator it would be a win/win. Both decks are virtually unknown and unavailable in the States, so it could only benefit their creators. The publisher's investment would be minimal; the proofed, printer-ready art already exists for licensing and reproduction. All that would be called for is the companion text (A Sedillot? Or a new Marseille for L'Idiot?) to be sold with it. And every person in the states who already uses Marseilles would buy the book separately because it fills this massive gap in the literature. And if it could be as meaty as, say, Decker's Art and Arcana, so much the better. Helvetica's reading on this question seems spot on and raises some excellent questions about untapped power and Marseille's distinct appeal. Whatever your feeling's about Dan Brown's DaVinci Code, it has tapped the zeitgeist and revealed a Stateside zeal for visual codes and occult/esoteric traditions that go against the grain. The orthodoxy of the Golden Dawn does stand on the shoulders of an older tradition that (in the Anglo-Saxon world) has been submerged in the flow of ideas. Perhaps the package's pitch would be the historic, authentic, esoteric angle for people who want to dig into something that's lasted 500 years... a beautiful boxed invitation to an exotic-but-familiar city.

The Marketing the Marseille thread was originally posted on 24 Jan 2005 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.