What do you believe???

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Jan 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ramses	24 Jan 2002
Well, here comes a difficult question...What do you really believe??? Do you believe in God, in religion, or witchcraft ,maybe, or anything else???...Or, would it all be a creation of our confused minds?? Probably, there is something higher, that we do not truly know, some kind of order in the universe, some hidden truth...but, what I´m talking about is , maybe all these beliefs, I mean, the way we try to seek for the truth of life...maybe it´s all wrong...I don´t know... There are so many religions and stuff, and each of them believes to be the best one, the one with the right answers... So, I´ve been reading about all of them...and , maybe, they are all right, and all wrong, at the same time... I don´t know...this is something so complex that even when I think of it some times I get puzzled, imagine having to think about it and type it here... So....I don´t know...just think about it ...maybe people are looking for answers in the wrong way, maybe not...but, in my opinion, it´s worth a try, to reflect about it, just to check if we´re doing things right.... PEACE,LOVE AND HARMONY TO ALL OF YOU!!!

Diana	25 Jan 2002
Dan, I just loved your message. The way you wrote it, with all those ... ... .... ... It really expressed what you're feeling. And what so many other people feel in the world. You're right, there are so many systems of beliefs. In fact, I would say there are as many systems of beliefs as there are human beings on the planet (and I'm only talking about our planet). Since the movie Matrix (great movie huh?) came out, there is even a whole movement now that thinks that the movie is true and that's what it's all about. Maybe we are all wrong, who knows? Perhaps all we see and believe is just a creation of our minds. (Although that wouldn't make it necessarily wrong, would it??). I think no-one can be absolutely sure. All I feel pretty certain about, is that there must be a purpose behind all this and that I am part of the purpose. I must be an expression of something - call it God, call it the Universal Spirit, the Mother and Father of all Things, or whatever. Anything I read or hear that speaks to me and helps me feel more serene, more close to harmony, or anything that gives me a feeling of fulfillment, for me is the truth at that particular time. Whether it be from my favourite books such as the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, the Psalms from the Old Testament, Jonathan Livingstone Seagull, some of Shakespeare's works, and some poems (the old classical Wordsworth poem "the Daffodils" for me is as spiritual as any religious text). I am however very wary of any religion or movement that tries to put itself over as the only religion - which means that I'm extremely wary of most churches, which tend often (but not always) to be extremely manipulative. I'm really looking forward to reading all the reactions to your post. Thanks. Have a nice day and love to you and everyone.

catlin	25 Jan 2002
Hi I can always come back to a quotation I made in an earlier thread about a similar subject: "All god/esses are one god/ess." Personally, I think: let everybody think/believe what s/he likes best as long as s/he does not try to impose this belief to others or does not make fun of believers of some other faith. I think it is a sad thing that nearly every world religion or religious community tries to persuade others that only their religion is the true religion. It sounds like brainwashing.

Jeanette	25 Jan 2002
I like to think that there is definitely something greater to believe in, but I too am not sure of what it is! I like to think that everyone's beliefs are valid and should be respected (and not forced on others). Maybe some day we will all find out, and hopefully we'll find out that we lived our lives the right way, for the greater glory of (here you can insert whatever you like!).

Scorpion	25 Jan 2002
Hi Ramses! I can see this is going to be a very interestng thread! I imagine there's a lot of non-conformity amongst us - inevitable on a site of this nature, I would have thought! For myself, I guess I go along with most of what's already been said. My background is a split between my father's very strictly Catholic family and my mother's Spiritualism. Studying Bhuddism also added its quota. I decided very early on to accept the things that "clicked" for me: the ones that "hit me between the eyes" as being true and I have formulated my own philosophy of life. I firmly believe there is some form of power that we give different titles to, be it God, Goddess etc. I believe in reincarnation - I believe there is a point to it all and I can't square that with getting just the one life - the law of karma holds far more appeal for me. However, I intend to live this life as if it's the only one - it's enough to deal with. I believe we are learning and our souls evolving all the time, but I can't quite get to grips with what happens once we get to our highest state: perhaps reabsorbed into the Source or maybe there's another stage before we get there? In short, I believe in being and doing the best I can and wherever possible, helping others should they need it. Maybe one day I'll achieve it!

Kiama	25 Jan 2002
Quote: Ramses (25 Jan, 2002 14:07): There are so many religions and stuff, and each of them believes to be the best one, the one with the right answers... Not entirely true of all religions. I know of some that specifically teach that there is no *right* way: It all depends on what you individually feel within you. As to the rest of the post. I believe that there is something Divine holding everything together: It is everywhere, in everyone, doing everything. It is so indescribably brilliant and wonderful that human kind cannot possibly undertand it totally. However, I believe that the forms It takes are created by humans in an attempt to commune with It easier.... So, in my opinion, all religions are one big religion worshipping the same ultimate being, but in different ways depending on their peference, upbringing, geographical and demographical location and position, etc etc.... I also think that in the end, we can never know for sure whether or not there is a Divine Being. (Until we die maybe!) Until then though, religion and belief gives us something to live up to and live by, something to give hope to ourselves and others. If one man believes that his god is behind him, he is more brave, more determined, and more human than one who is utterly desperate ad feels he is isolated from his god. Throughout history we have seen heartwarming examples of how religious belief has driven people to give their life for others, to save peoples lives with great risk to their own, to volunteer to help out organisations such as Oxfam and Amnesty International. I don't know why I believe. It doesn't really matter all that much to me. I only know that I have my beliefs, and I will continue to live up to them in the eyes of my Gods (Who may or may not be there!), and that when I die, I will die a happier person cuz I can face my Gods and not be ashamed. Kiama

Malachite	25 Jan 2002
Paths of belief are not passages of stone, but line painted on the floor of a vast hall...walk along whichever path you like, they all get you lost equally sucessfully... Whichever path you walk, if you light a torch in that hall, you will see other people walking their path...compare notes, and perhaps you will find a way to get un-lost... ;-)

Pollux	26 Jan 2002
Quote: Jeanette (25 Jan, 2002 23:07): I like to think that there is definitely something greater to believe in, but I too am not sure of what it is! I like to think that everyone's beliefs are valid and should be respected (and not forced on others). Maybe some day we will all find out, and hopefully we'll find out that we lived our lives the right way, for the greater glory of (here you can insert whatever you like!). That was a drop of infinite. Few lines, and a whole world depicted. Congratulations, Jeanette! Kiama, your posts are clear and unarguable as ever, yet something is missing... Oh yes, your kisses! :D As for me, as others have stated the general terms of believig, I'll only mention something: I believe in tolerance, in love, in light. I believe in Man, in his goodness and generosity (though have bunch of examples of the opposite) I believe in life, in the urge we feel to go on, to keep our journey going further, our evolution unravel its path. I believe it doesn't matter where you're headed or whether you'll get there: just start walking. P.S. there's a song by SAVAGE GARDEN a friend made me listen to: it's called "I believe", I suppose. It's really nice. And the Chorus is something like: "[i]I believe in Karma, what you give is what you get returned" Actually, the second thing I thought of was: it should have been "what you get is what you give returned". BU! ??? But the whole song is very nice, all the same.

nexyjo	26 Jan 2002
labels can sometimes help people organize the universe. if someone says they are an athlete, you usually assume they are in good shape, don't smoke, eat fairly healthy, and can run alot faster than me. i'm wiccan. so i believe i many of the common wiccan beliefs. reincarnation, the ability of each of us to manipulate personal energy, i believe in the tarot, and i believe in god. unlike some wiccans, i believe in one god, though i celebrate her in two aspects. male and female, goddess and god. i believe that christianity started out with a good man who had alot to teach the world. so they killed him, and his followers used his death as a means to manipulate the world. and it's still going on 2000 years later. i believe i have the brain of a woman, despite what my physical body may indicate. i believe that love is the most powerful force in the universe. i believe we all create our own realities. we all contribute to the common reality, of which most of us are a part. but inside, we each have our own perspective. i believe that in order to survive, we'll need to learn to celebrate diversity, and not condemn it. i believe i've run out of things to say... luv and light, nexy

Lilliana	26 Jan 2002
I believe that all religions and beliefs are valid if they help the individual to live a harmonious and fuller life. I don't think there is "one true religion" that supercedes all others, they are simply different paths. I try to respect everyone's personal beliefs and never enforce my own as "better". I do however, have a problem with people who claim they believe in a certain religion, but don't actually act out their beliefs in real life. As an example, I know several christians who go to church, pray and go through all the motions, but have never given any of their time or money through helping less fortunate people. It's as if they do all the easy stuff, but ignore the harder bits like charity and "do unto others...". I know this is slightly off topic, but it's something that's bothered me for ages, I just had to vent. As for my own beliefs, I'm an atheist, in that I don't believe in an afterlife. I belive in nature, and what science can tell us about the world. I do believe that there's more than meets the eye, and that one day science will be able to explain it. This doesn't mean I don't have a spiritual side, it's just hard to explain it. I believe in karma, not as a mystical thing, but simply as energy- what you send out comes back to you. I think the phrase "do unto others as you would have done unto you" sums it up for me. Lilli

Diana	26 Jan 2002
Quote: Lilliana (27 Jan, 2002 00:51): I do however, have a problem with people who claim they believe in a certain religion, but don't actually act out their beliefs in real life. ........... I just had to vent. Lilli Lilli, can I vent too?? I get mad when people who never even profess to be religious, never put foot in a church or temple or whatever, and who don't seem the slightest interested in anything spiritual, still baptise their babies into the churches that they themselves were baptised in. I just don't see the point, and I find it so hypocritical. Oooh, now I feel better. :)

Malachite	26 Jan 2002
Diana: People take out of their belief what they need to feel secure...if that's what they need, sure its a bit hypocritical, but as long as everyone gets spiritual security, hey...laugh... ;-)

Lilliana	27 Jan 2002
Diana- I know exactly what you mean....it's sort of like couples who don't consider themselves religious or christians, but still have a whole church wedding with priests, sermons etc. Hmmm....maybe we should start a vent thread ;) Malachite, what you said is very true. Lilli

Kiama	27 Jan 2002
Quote: Pollux (26 Jan, 2002 19:22): P.S. there's a song by SAVAGE GARDEN a friend made me listen to: it's called "I believe", I suppose. It's really nice. And the Chorus is something like: " [i] I believe in Karma, what you give is what you get returned" I LOVE THIS SONG! Iwas gonna post about it too, but didn't. It' called 'Affirmation', and goes like this: "I believe the sun should never set upon an argument, I believe we place our happiness in other people's hands, And believe that junk food tastes so good because its bad for you, I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do. I believe that beauty magazines promote low self esteem, I believe in love surviving death into eternity.. I believe in karma what you give is what you get returned, I believe you can't appreciate real love til you've been burned, I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side, I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goobye.... I've forgotten the rest, apart from a really cool bit going: I believe that God does not endorse TV evangelists. Anyway, just thought I'd post that! As for the rest of the posts, they're really thought provoking. Malachite: Maybe we should call your theory the Pick'N Mix religon theory ;p Kiama

amyel	27 Jan 2002
Hi Dan, I read your post a couple of days ago, but I've had friends visiting and didn't have time to respond. Anyway, I believe (amyel stands up on her soapbox) that whatever someone believes, they should live. Growing up, I can't tell you how many times I met people who claimed to be religious and dutifully went to church each Sunday - yet were bigots and intolerant of anyone who looked or thought different from them! I knew then that if this was what "religion" was all about, then I wanted no part of it. Perhaps this will protect me from ever being sucked in by a cult/sect (she says hopefully). Like Jeannette, I believe there is a higher "being" or spiritual purpose. I can see so many links through so many different religions and belief systems, that the whole history of religion is almost maddening to me, and combined with what's going on in the Middle East today...well...I'm often upset, as you may imagine. While I try to sort out what exactly it is I believe, I try to live my life by the golden rule. This is the "real" golden rule - "Do unto others..." and not the "Wizard of Id" golden rule ("he who has the gold makes the rules). I don't always manage to live this way, but it seems to me to be the most basic guiding principle I can actually do. Like Pollux, I am also reminded of some song lyrics, but mine are from a group called TheThe: "God didn't build himself that throne, God doesn't live in Israel or Rome....God doesn't even go to church..." I can't remember all the words or even the correct order, but those lyrics have struck a cord with me. I have no problem with anyone's religion or faith system. I think it is personal and if it offers someone solace and guidence, then all the better. But, deep down - as my mom will tell you - I have a basic problem with "authority" - and so I refuse to live my life by the definitions of a group that I don't think are valid anymore. So, I've been known to pray to the goddess and "God". To me, these are manifestations of our world's believe in a higher power or spirit. I think it is irrelevant *who* I pray to or ask for guidence, as long as the intent is for good and not bad. Confused? Well, that would about sum up my believe system.

mokie	28 Jan 2002
Talk about synchronicity... I'm going through a bit of a dark night over here, with the divine hanging just out of reach as I trip over past issues and pain trying to move into a closer relationship with myself and it. It hit me like a brick yesterday that I needed something, and I sat down and wrote pages about what I believe, how I'm living by my belief or failing to live by my belief, and so forth. I find Hinduism best describes my beliefs in religious terms, though Ken Wilber's writings have also made a dent in my brain. In both there's the idea of Creation itself as God unconscious (or spirit, or Bob...), and all things thus are God--"just a drop of water in an endless sea," if you will. All forms, all beings, gods and men and so forth, are transient incarnations, nothing but a passing illusion of individual self. Wilber adds to this image the process of evolution of forms and consciousness in this illusory world as the evolution of this unconscious God, struggling toward consciousness itself. I find it reassuring. The big religions urge compassion because it's good for your own soul, because you might find yourself in the same place some day, because by helping the one you help the overall whole; I find it refreshing to think that by nurturing myself, my own spiritual growth, I'm also working for the greater good. As for the question of people living their beliefs, I think it's a matter of what one needs and how far you're willing to compromise. There are few Christians who need to dedicate their entire lives to Christ and take off for the wilderness to commune; most are content to be content, to pull it into their lives in a form that fits rather than shaping their lives around it. I doubt most Wiccans are 'devout' enough to abandon the cities and go back to the groves and the fields, go back to Nature. Instead, they bring it into their existing lives, adapting both into a form they can live with. Amyel's Christians would probably argue with the Christianity that I've heard espoused--love and acceptance and tolerance--because the Bible is a big contradictory book, and you'll find quotes about not suffering witches and taking up the sword to spread the faith just as you'll find quotes about love and peace and fish. It's not that they don't live their beliefs, it's that their idea of the religion is fundamentally different than other folks. Er, I'll stop rambling now. :)

raeanne	28 Jan 2002
Hi all, I think everyone has a different spiritual need. Most of us on this web site have a very great need to investigate our spirituality. It is high on our list of priorities. But that doesn’t mean everyone else has that same need. Some people are on a different path with different needs. Some people are driven to paint pictures or create music and they paint beautiful pictures and make wonderful music. That doesn’t lessen my “one finger at a time” piano playing or my meager attempt to be artistic. Other people are just more gifted in art and music. Perhaps we are the spiritual artists – born with a greater need to seek out spiritual fulfillment. That doesn’t mean we are better than anyone else, we just have a different need. Some people have a spiritual need to be very restricting. If you really listen to a fundamentalist, you can hear the driving need they have for rigidity. It doesn’t matter if you are talking to a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic fundamentalist; they all try to fit their lives into a very strict regimen. Maybe fundamentalism is equivalent to my plunky piano playing. Hmmm, I may have to think about this a little more.

teenagegirl	28 Jan 2002
yeah, I've had the same questions. wicca and christianity seem to be two opposite religions. I have been raised a christian. and that makes it worse because christianity is totaly against witchcraft. so is telekensis considered witchcraft? I mean, if it is, and am able to do that, then, that would be going against my religion wouldnt' it? who invented religion? is it just a way for people to think? would the universe not be able to survive if peopel didnt' have things to believe in. am so confused. and people try to tell me, you should believe this, not that. and i've studyed wicca and its the exact oposite of christianity. which one is true?

Liliana	28 Jan 2002
I believe in Love, it all boils down to that. I believe no religionn is more right than another, that its based on a persons needs. I believe my needs are filled trough a combination of Christianity and Wicca and that I was lead to my path by the Holy Spirit herself, no matter how many closed minded people tell me I cant or Im being decieved by Satan. I believe Im here for a reason, which I believe is related to High Priestess soul card. I believe the words in the Bible can be used for good or evil, just like magick can. I believe far too many Christians are using theible for evil by taking things out of context or misunderstanding meaning. I believe i've written far too much now :)

Diana	29 Jan 2002
Quote: teenagegirl (29 Jan, 2002 08:19): I have been raised a christian. and that makes it worse because christianity is totaly against witchcraft. so is telekensis considered witchcraft? I mean, if it is, and am able to do that, then, that would be going against my religion wouldnt' it? Teenagegirl: When you say "going against your religion"? I think you're meaning the religion you were raised in. This does not necessarily make it "your religion". It would be if it really satisfied your needs, but it obviously doesn't anymore. Perhaps it satisfied your parent's needs, and that's why they raised you in it, wanting, because they love you, to give you some spiritual food. But you obviously have different needs from your parents and I really don't think you should have any qualms in looking to satisfy your spiritual hunger in your own way. On the contrary, you must try and fulfill your needs. Fulfilling one's needs is an very vital element of mental health. I think most of us here were probably given a certain religious pattern to follow by our parents - I am certainly giving spiritual guidance to my child - it's part of education. But I would be very surprised if he didn't go hunting for his individual spiritual enrichment when he's older. Woops, it's time to go. Have a nice day.

Pollux	29 Jan 2002
Well guys, this posts is engrossing. Wrong adjective? You'll excuse me, of couse, but this is the only word I can think of. I agree with everything I read so far. Kiama : the song is wicked! But I feel like pointing out something (maybe Malachite's saying): I was raised a christian myself, and now I consider myself a Wiccan - although done nothing yet about it! - from less then one month. I agree with Diana, and the need to find an individual path, and also with mokie about "fitting and not shaping" issues ;p. But this last problem can be dealt with only by taking into account Diana and raeanne's words: each of us has a path, each a need. If other people say they're christian and don't go to church and the rest of it... well, I just don't care! It's their business. I won't go in the aisles judging or seeking proof of their hypocrisy... We are not here to judge (someone, something else probably will), but to help if possible. Each a path, each a need. This may be a relevant part of my Christian education dwelling in me, but I'm fine with it - I like it. It's my path, as I have said. Call it Negative Karma, call it sin... After all, there are tons of ways to help the community, and this is all that matters, I believe. We don't have the infinite knowledge to know what others do or not, profess or no, believe or not. This post is straying: wasn't it "What d you believ?" ;D

Kiama	29 Jan 2002
Quote: teenagegirl (29 Jan, 2002 08:19): yeah, I've had the same questions. wicca and christianity seem to be two opposite religions. A very good friend of mine once told me to ask myself why I think certain things. Then I had to ask myself how I know, who I got that information from, and whether or not I truly believed it. Ask yourself if *you* think these two religions are really that different. I'm gonna make John Hick's biggest mistake now, and shout an appeal to mystery: How are we, as finite human beings, supposed to know beyond all shade of doubt that our way of seeing the Divine Mystery is correct? The Divine is ineffable, and infinite, so how can finite and effable humans comprehend that totally? How does the Christian *know* that his version of the Divine is so totally against the Wiccan version? (Right, here's where you'd better go and read the thread on Absolutism and Relativism: It'll help you get your head around some of these ideas easier.) In the end, we cannot know for sure that one religion is totally different. For all we know, Wicca and Christianity, and every single other religion could be worshipping the same Divine Being, jut seeing that Being in a different way. For instance, a Christian may see the Divine as a Father, with a long white beard. A Wiccan may see the Divine as a Goddess and a God. Some guy in your school may see the Divine as an elephant with big purple ears! But no matter how outrageous that view, and how much one religion says the other is wrong, we can never, *never* truly know. As Bertrand Russel wrote: "There is no knowledge on this Earth that is so sure that no reasonable man can doubt it." Basically, there is no claim on this Earth that can be wholly validated. If you need to talk about this some more, feel free to email me. Kiama

Ramses	01 Feb 2002
Hi folks... well, I didn´t think there was going to be such a huge and positive feedback when I posted this topic...and I´m really amazed with it ... I have to say that I loved what every and each one of you wrote and posted in this thread...yet, I´m ashamed for having given absolutelly no contribuition to this thread...so, here I am, again... The real question I wanted to have posted in the very beginning, the real issue, was about how much people let religion control their lives...you know...I think religion is something good, and I loved what people here said about needs and security and all that ...but, I think that people have to think with their own minds...well, I think I´d better explain it better... We are all human beings, and human beings are not perfect, right ?!...and someone, long time ago, started a religion, right?!...and others gave continuity to it...so, who can guarantee that they did everything correct???...and even if they did, and I think this is more important, who can tell people are interpreting everything right...I know that many people here would say that as long as you follow your heart , you´re doing just fine... But, we seek for religion because we feel imcomplete, lost, insecure...Jesus, or Budha, or any other likewise, didn´t have a religion...they were enlightened enough to be their own guides, and to guide other peolpe... Well, all I´m trying to say is ...Don´t you folks think that sometimes some people let religion control their lives, and instead of comfort they find mental confusion???Don´t you think that sometimes people misinterpret what some religion is trying to say, and start doing things wrong, and even harming other people and theirselves??? I´m really sorry if I´m being confusing with what I´m writing, maybe I´m not being able to express what I really wanna say... I just think that all religions are wonderfull...people just gotta be sensible, and sensitive, to be able to feel what they need and use their intelligence to think about religion and think of right and wrong, and etc..., instead of literally doing everything their religions tell them to do... I just think that religion is something pretty general, and we gotta adapt it to our individuality, instead of making religion our lives...after all, religion is there to help us, not to emprision us... OK, folks...I think I´ve written enough...I just apologize for maybe not being able to express what I really wanted...and I´m sorry if I failed to make my thoughts and opinions clear throughout this text... And about me, in case you´ve been wondering, I have no religion, eventhough I admire and try to read about them all...I don´t believe in any God, specifically...I wasn´t raised into any religion, yet my mother and grandmother are spiritists, and my country is essentially Christian...I only believe in the power that MANKIND has to grow and evolve, and I hope that some day we may find real peace and confort to our so troubled souls... Just have to say something more...I JUST LOVED EVERYTHING YOU ALL WROTE(thanks for that, for helping me and many other people grow)...AND I LOVE YOU ALL!!! PEACE,HARMONY AND LIGHT TO YOU ALL!!!!!!!!

Ramses	05 Feb 2002
Well many different people , many different beliefs... Wouldn't it be possible that one day we would all believe in the same thing ...IN OURSELVES???? Well, maybe one day... LOVE,PEACE AND HARMONY TO ALL!!!!!!!

Malachite	05 Feb 2002
Ramses: >>Just have to say something more...I JUST LOVED EVERYTHING YOU ALL WROTE(thanks for that, for helping me and many other people grow)...AND I LOVE YOU ALL!!! Hey...please tell me they aren;t last words...;-).... People often let things rule their life....its weird, and I don;t understand it...

New River	05 Feb 2002
i echo nexyjo's post. it was put so eloquently. love is the most powerful force in the universe. the Divine encompasses unconditional love. we must find unconditional love for ourselves so we can give it to others. love, light and hope, New River

Ramses	06 Feb 2002
Ok Malachite....lol....those won´t be last words...I promise.... We all still have so much to say, and to think of ... Yeah, as you said, it´s difficult to understand why people let their lives be ruled by the most strange reasons... Mankind still has a lot of work to do before reaching control...I mean, SELF CONTROL.... We gotta learn that one is enough for him/herself, and yet imcomplete without the company of others... People hurt others maybe because they have hurt themselves...because they are not what they wanted to be ...and being faced to that can be pretty painful...so, people hide themselves...sometimes under the mask of something called faith ...´cause faith can be a mask when you don´t really have it .... Maybe all we need is to trully believe in what we say we do... Maybe what we need is to accept what we are, and KNOW that there is always room for improvement...and we have to want to improve, to grow... I don´t believe that humanity is lost forever, as some people believe...maybe just temporarilly lost... We just gotta have faith that some day mankind will find its way, the best way we can find for true and absolute peace and universal love... Well, these are just some thoughts of mine...sometimes I get pretty philosophical and strange as you could see...lol...forgive me for that .... LOVE,PEACE AND HARMONY TO YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RainbowFire	09 Feb 2002
Quote: Diana (25 Jan, 2002 17:39): Since the movie Matrix (great movie huh?) came out, there is even a whole movement now that thinks that the movie is true and that's what it's all about. . Hell yeah, that film scared the crap put of me! that;s what makes me scared, all the scientific stuff - if that film is true then I don't want to be a part of it at ALL! We could just live a day to day life, not wanting to know the meaning of it, just getting on with it. That's what less intelligent people - and animals - do. So why do we spend so much of our time (IF time exists) pondering what reality is and why we exist and what is the meaning of life and how does everything happen??? I had a very interesting debate with my psychics teacher the other day... I was asking how they know everything is little vibrating atoms... he doesn't belive in ghosts or spirits because they aren't "anything" and I asked what is the mind then, thought and dreams etc. His answer was "electronic signals" - I asked "So does that make us robots? If everything we think of, our dreams and opinions... are all just electronic signals?" BY the end of it he was saying "well, perhaps there IS something scientists can't explain yet." Why do scientists always think that they're right!? But if life IS all science... psychic messages are possible...electronic signals reaching each other!? Maybe spirituality is totally scientific

Malachite	10 Feb 2002
The difference between spirituality and science is mostly in viewpoint... All there is really, is what there is... if you understand me there,..;-)

magdalene	02 Mar 2002
I believe in the laws of physics. magdalene

truthsayer	02 Mar 2002
something i've been pondering lately that seems to fit this thread is the school of process theology. process theology views God in a state of constant flux rather than static or unchanging. in other words, humans are part of God growing. as human learn and develop, the God grows, changes and adapts thru the lessons we learn. to me this makes sense b/c i've never been able to accept the Bible b/c i consider it as a reflection of the thinking of an earlier time. to accept the Bible as is, doesn't give the human race or God credit for changing any since the new testament was written. i can't live my life w/o questioning. thank God for all the brave souls over the centuries who questioned when it wasn't fashionable or safe and could get one tortured or executed. w/o them things might not have changed to the point we can freely have conversations like this over the www. however, when i remember frightening futuristic books like george orwell's 1984, i find myself shuddering and wondering what in life is an illusion i've created to feel safe. how much am i in denial? to me the matrix was like part 2 of 1984. when that movie came out i combed the web for quotes from it b/c the movie was so was so was...i don't know the right words but it was a dose of reality therapy. made me questioned the permanence of everything i see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. really, i don't know what i believe b/c my life is in a constant state of flux and growth. things i believed as a teen are the same in many ways but in others those beliefs have deepened and matured. others i have flat thrown out.

Ramses	02 Mar 2002
Hey Truthsayer.... you got an interesting point there...gotta think it over...I liked it , a lot .....thanks.... LOVE, PEACE AND HARMONY TO YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

golubok	24 May 2002
Well, there's a question!! One you could talk about for hours if not days. Personally I don't believe that churches are worth a sook as there are so many different ones worldwide that it just seems silly to be in any one organised religion (to me!). I believe that there are good and evil forces that are present here and that there is a constant battle between the two. I believe that we (humans)are being consumed by greed, power, material possisions, jealousy, negativity etc. This world is not an easy one in which to live, a lot of pressures with money, jobs, lack of personal time etc. It all accumulates and amount to stress and often depression. I view this as the evil forces. The world is such a magnificent place, so beautiful and most of it is free to look at. People all too easily forget that we are a miniscule part of this world, universe, whatever and get so wrapped up in trying to make sense of it (through religion) that they are missing the point. People who run themselves in to the ground at their work puzzle me. You give a company 40 years of your life and for what at the end of it, a carriage clock and a handshake! Madness. Obviously we have to work and I do get stressed and find it hard to find a path though life that feels right. I don't think Ibelieve in Darwyn's theory but who knows. There must have been something mighty powerful that happened and came from somewhere. I mean, if God made us, who made God? I could speak about this for ages but I'll give someone else a chance while I take a breath, hee, hee!

lunalafey	24 May 2002
what I believe ? A WHOLE LOTTA STUFF. Ramses, I really related with your post. And it sounds like we are all hanging out in the same realm.... I grew up without religion, there for I was left to ponder the great mysteries myself. My belief system was something that came about as I grew up. Thoughts would come to me, as I got older, reading spiritual and metaphysical books, talking with others, I recieved conformation(so to speak) The way I like to explain one part of what I believe...There is something greater out there that is beyond our comprehention as humans. It is not our job to figure it out, we are to accept it for what it is. My way of thinking, anything is possible, I will not disbelieve anything unless I have witnessed proof. simple. Fate karma coincidences being little crumbs along the path of life, hey, take note.... 1111...and whatever IT'S supposed to mean :) reincarnation the sun the moon the stars the trees the mountains the rivers the oceans........ PEACE LOVE AND HAPPINESS

jade	24 May 2002
i believe in a power higher than myself, greater than myself. i believe that if i ask this power/energy for assistance that my life changes for the better because 'she' assists me. i call this power/energy goddess. i am totally ecclectic. i don't know where i fit in really. i call myself wiccan/pagan but i don't know what i am..............other than i am exactly where i need to be at this moment and what i believe is perfect and right for me. in light, jade

Ravenswing	24 May 2002
i started straight-laced presbyterian-- but i asked questions. that wasn't really accepted (and i was about six at the time). i ventured out to other views, metaphysical and religous, mathematical and philosophical... many paths, many ways. i seem to go about in circles, from one thing to another. but each time i touch on a view, it is on a slightly 'higher' level. so i guess you can say i'm going up a spiral. what do i believe? if you're not moving you're going backwards. what's true today may not be true yesterday. a triangle (triad, trinity) is the only real form what's right for you is right for you-- at least until it's wrong there are no absolutes-- which means this is a relative statement you gotta learn to bounce everything is connected-- which can be a bitch at times all points of view are just that, and i have no right to judge any of them i'm now what i call a red letter christian-- hard act to follow... ditch most everything else, but follow the red. one last thing-- unconditional love must be possible. we only have to rid ourselves of fear. LVX steve

wavebreaker	24 May 2002
I was raised as a Roman Catholic, although not very strict (my family would only go to church at Christmas and on other special occasions). The primary school I went to was rather strict though, and that had quite an effect on me; looking back, I feel that I was sort of "brainwashed" in some respects. By the time I was about 16 I started to question the way the catholic church required me to believe and I ended up turning my back to it. I just couldn't accept anymore how they forced you to believe according to their rules, with no room to create your own "rituals" or having your own opinions. I didn't really have anything against what they believed in, but against the way it was institutionalised. After that, I called myself an atheist for several years. But then I started realising I do believe in something, I just didn't really know what. I'm still not sure what exactly I do believe in. I believe that there is more than the world that we can see, I believe in spirits, in reincarnation. I do believe that there is some sort of higher power, but I don't really see it as one god, but more like a power or energy that is everywhere.

Faerie Lin	25 May 2002
I believe in a higher power, God/dess who has a male aspect and a female aspect. I believe in reincarnation, souls ect. That we decide to come live a lifetime here on earth for God. So that S/he can experience through our experiences (good and bad.) I believe that spells are like prayers, and prayers can create such a wonderful vibration. I believe that some of our mythical creatures are actually real in some place or dimension... like dragons and faeries, and that they can and do communicate with us if you just pay attention. So much more to say, but that would probably take all day. Lin

starcrow	03 Jun 2002
I just want to say, I believe in God. I don't go to church, haven't gone in many years, but I also don't believe you HAVE to go to church to pray, or whatever. I think if you have faith in your heart, that's good enough for me. I grew up Protestant, but yet I like Saints, (especially St. Francis) and I love the whole native american way of how they interpret the divine. I don't care who you are, you can be Wiccan, Catholic, Hindu, purple, orange, spotted, who cares! When I grew up, my Mom, rest her soul, always made us go. (This was the fifties) That is , until I got bored and started skipping to meet friends elsewhere.Hee. The thing is, I never forced my kids to go, if they wanted to, fine. If not, well, that's ok too. My daughter actually thanked me for that, because she said it was great that she didn't have the whole dogma of religion forced on her, she could choose what she wanted. My son believes in something, a force, but he thinks the bible is full of it. I think I believe even more, since my Mom passed. If I didn't believe, then that would mean we die, and that's it? Nah, I think we go through too much of hell on earth, not to believe in the afterlife. I don't know, it's a tough question. My cousin just started practicing Wicca, and she's Catholic, and was worried about doing both, but I say, do what you want, as long as you never hurt anyone, or force your will on them. Besides, what goes around comes around eventually, I really believe that. Sorry, I'm rambling here. Kind Regards, Starcrow

tempestfire	21 Jun 2002
I may get some disagreements here- but (here's the disclaimer) this is what I feel and I would never try to force my beliefs on anyone.And these have changed over the years- and are still changing. I don't believe in a heaven or hell. I believe we are all mere threads in the web of the universe. In a sense we are all gods and goddesses. Not an almighty , allseeing, allknowing kind of thing. Our spirits are interwoven with the spirit of everything around us. Our actions affect not only humans but animals and plants etc... I just have a hard time with thinking of there being only one God. Who created everything. I keep coming back to the question- Who created God? It just seems hard to believe that nothing existed except this supreme being- who I guess got bored and decided to create us? I don't have all the answers. But I feel that there are different levels of supreme beings. The older spirits that have completed their cosmic journey, gain more power with each new life. Just a theory of mine. Still- I don't think anyone will ever have all the answers- or know

The What do you believe??? thread was originally posted on 24 Jan 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.