now I feel so stupid, but I have to ask this...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Pollux	22 Jun 2002
You all know that I am not a native speaker, my first language being Italian. I won't be surprised if no one replies to this thread... *lol* My "problem" is this: I tend to use english when I have my rituals, chants or invocations... This mostly because of these boards, one of few places where I can talk of my actual religious choice, and because most of the reading matter related to that is in english, and I won't find it in my mother-tongue. Actually, I also get mixed up at times. :( I know it is a silly question... but I had to ask. And I have an answer already, that is using whatever language I feel most comfortable with, saying the words that make sense to me. But I'd like to know if there's a sort of rule for this, apart from the one of "going with my flow". Also because I see my language as part of my knowledge, and part of the inheritance received from my ancestors... Maybe I will also have to choose once I start my BOS... :(

Rhiannon	22 Jun 2002
Now to me... spellwork would be very cool to do in Italian, it would sound so much richer, you know? But it's your native tongue so I don't know if you'd get that same "archaic" quality from it. It would be very theatrical and mysterious for me though ;) . But getting back to your question: if you feel more connected to your roots when using your own language I say that it can only help you. And your thoughts will probably be more focused that way as well. Rhiannon :)

Jenny-Li	22 Jun 2002
Hi Pollux, here's a take from another non-native English-speaker! Using a language that isn't mine, when I don't have to (and when speaking to the divine and the spiritual, linguistics is probably of secondary importance ...! ;)) would for me seem shallow, it limits my ability to say EXACTLY what I mean to say. No matter how used I am to using a language, even when it's in the case of a limited terminology (here's the translation management project leader speaking, can you tell...? :D) like the magick sphere, it does mean I limit myself. What I would do, is use my own language when it's ME speaking, and if I need to add formal words, spells, prayers and whatever it is, that seems more powerful in it's original phrasing, I'd use the original, but then it would be a question of reciting, not speaking, right? So that would be a way of doing both. Do you think that could work for you? Hope it does - or that you find another way! Light and love, Jenny :)

Ravenswing	22 Jun 2002
pollux-- check this out: “Let us then walk in the right way, let us speak before God with heart and mouth alike opened, in our own maternal language, since how can you pretend to obtain any Grace from the Lord, if ye yourselves know not what ye ask? Yet, however, the number of those who lose themselves utterly in vanity is infinite; many say that the Grecian language is more agreeable to God, it may be true that it was perhaps at one time, but how many among us to-day understand it perfectly, this is the reason why it would be the most senseless thing to employ it.” from “The Book of Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage” as translated by Mathers The above quote was Abramelin’s reasoning for using Hebrew as a sacred language rather than the Greek. if english is a second language, it's not your sacred language LVX steve

Maalin	22 Jun 2002
Well, I am bilingual in the sense that neither of my two languages is dominant, and you should see my diary - or my tarot journal for that matter!!! I am quite capable of switching language in the same sentence without even noticing, and I have a strange English/German sense of grammar which integrates both languages in a way that, to me at least, makes sense. I think what I am writing is what is happening in my brain when I am not consciously thinking in words: I use both languages, or, if you want, neither. When I read through what I've written, I usually (though not always) find that things about events that happened in German or with people I normally speak German with will be in German and what happened in English will be in English, though I am not consciously switching language while I write. The same is true for my spirituality: although my 'conscious' language is definitely English simply because that is the language I learned and talked and became aware of my spirituality in, that doesn't mean it's my only language for prayer. Sorry if I am rambling (I am good at that in English and German! :D), but what I am trying to say is this: In essence, I believe, spirituality is non-verbal and the language that you truly speak when you pray or perform rituals is wordless. Which means, that you don't have to make a conscious decision about what language to use at all, or at least not a decision that will always apply: instead choose the words that best express what you are really trying to say without words. Whether those words happen to be English or Italian, or both at the same time, doesn't matter. Your spiritual journey is as important as it is personal, and that, IMHO, is reason enough to warrant a 'personal language' to express it in! :)

Diana	22 Jun 2002
Pollux: I think that the god/goddess or whatever deities you are talking to speak all the languages of the world, and all the rest as well (the ones we've never heard of.) They even understand the language of your heart! I think that as long as you yourself understand what you're saying - whatever language you use, even if you mix up languages, will be understood absolutely and completely. Languages have developed so that humans can understand each other, and they are still very limited - look at all the misunderstandings just because two people use the same word for different things. But these limitations do not exist in the spiritual world. I bet that if you knew how to talk in "colours" or in "pictures" in your mind, that this would work just as well. But us humans don't know how to talk in colours. Pity.

jade	22 Jun 2002
i was going to say what maalin and diana said! mix up your two tongues and use the words that express what you need to in that moment. allow yourself to flow and ignore how you are saying it, instead focus on what your intent and feelings are. and enjoy yourself, it's supposed to be fun! love and light, jade :D

Phoenix	22 Jun 2002
Maalin, I am the same way! I can switch between French and English with out even realizing it. Pollux, when I do rituals, I do them in my native tongue, English. But, again, it is what is most comfortable for you.

runehunt	23 Jun 2002
If Christians can speek in tongues that no one can understand,And call that praying. I think the words that feel right to you at the time of the spell, or when you pray, or when you address a divinity are the right ones to use. No Matter what the languag or tongue may be *runehunt*

Ravenswing	23 Jun 2002
let me elaborate on my previous post-- if you can think in a language, then it's a natural language-- do whatever work in it. if you can't think in a language, it's a 'second' language-- personally, i wouldn't use it. LVX steve (to whom all but english are second languages...)

wavebreaker	23 Jun 2002
I too agree with what Maalin and Diana have already said. I think it's the intention that counts, you know what you want to say, so it doesn't really matter how you put it into words and in what language. English is not my native language, but I don't feel that as a limitation; there are many times I can express my feelings better in English than in Dutch. I think both in English and in Dutch. So I sort of consider them both as my native language. I prefer English, because that feels most comfortable to me. Nearly all my tarot books and decks are in English. My tarot journal is mostly in English too. Last week, by accident I bought a Dutch version of a deck (I only discovered it when I got home) and I don't like it... ;)

Maan	23 Jun 2002
When i do rituals and spells from a book i use english since the books are in english but when i make up my own i use dutch. So i now really sure what i'm asking for ;) And i can express myself much better in dutch...although thanks to this forums my english is getting a little better. My tarot notes are a bit of both. Wich makes them almost impossible to read for anyone exept me :)

jade	23 Jun 2002
pollux, i would like to point out that i think this is an excellent question! many people feel that spells need to be very structured and rigid, when in fact, they don't. (unless you choose to have them that way) you've shown many members, i'm sure, the flexibility of spellwork and rituals. in light, jade :D

Pollux	23 Jun 2002
Thanks jade! At times I think you are WAY TOOOOOOOOOO kind to me... but I love it!!! :* And thanks to everyone who replied, and so quickly! I got this huge responce in 24 hours! WOW!!! :) My ideas are much clearer now, and My conscience as well... :P I would love to elaborate something, but I just got my odd 5 minutes of pause from my books - tomorrow is The Day - and I must be quick and efficient!!! *LOL* THANK YOU AGAIN!!! :)

The now I feel so stupid, but I have to ask this... thread was originally posted on 22 Jun 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.