Be Religious or not?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Sep 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

AmounrA	27 Sep 2002
Liliana.."thankfully theres a total of 4 of us teaching sunday school, and im not the leader so to say, im just told what to do then do it hehe. "...Without wishing to sound like a negative hole spotter...but, I hate the idea of trying to programme religon into children. I know most religons do it, but I think it is something for a person to discover themselves. I have met countless people who you ask.what religon are you?..and they amswer Christian. When my shock is over and I say 'christian!!?'..they often go on to say --"well I don't practice it, but I was baptised as a child, so I guess I'm Christian"...NO NO NO , this is wrong. I find your description of a 'Christian Wiccan', as absurd as a 'jewish nazi' . I think it should be spelt out clearly to you..Christianity is an emotional plague, a parasite upon the mind of it's victims, a con that refuses to die, and lets not beat about the bush....Christianity is nonsense. (the best bits are stolen from other older, greater religous ideas) Jesus may have been a smart, wise man...the christian religon is a cancer which has grown off his memory.

Liliana	27 Sep 2002
Im highly offended here, and you know it. You were obviously very hurt buy whatever church you were forced to attend as a kid, but Im not like that. I believe in Christianity, not Chruchianity, i follow the words of Christ. And I agree that kids shouldnt be indoctrinated, thats why we arent having out kids baptised, and they will be learning of other religions as they grow as well, it is up to them to choose and they will know it. My husband is likely going into seminary and he feel as as strongly about them choosing their path as i do. Im sure you hate when other people call YOU a Satan worshipper, so judge not lest ye be judge, sorry to use a Christian qute here. Fundies are fundies whether they quote God, the Goddess, or anything welse :THP

Diana	27 Sep 2002
AmounrA: I am surprised at the hatred I hear in your post about Christianity, and the vehemence with which you attack Liliana's beliefs. It doesn't make sense to me. Especially coming from you. I don't even want to go into the details. It certainly sounds like you are suffering from some trauma.

Kaz	27 Sep 2002
AmounrA, i truely wonder why you posted like this in response to liliana. i find your post offensive as well. WHY ??? kaz

HOLMES	27 Sep 2002
a negative hole spotter ? some souls choose to have christian parents to teach them what they came here to learn like other choose buddhic, new ages, atheist. they are discoverin it for themselves, as well,, for no matter what you do ,, the child will make up his mind and go with the flow til he is old enough to make his own stand. who are we to critize another path when we are barely know our own. a path is more then relgition, it is how we live our own lives a accordin to our own essences. now the term jewish nazi in this context is out of the line. and this is no place to critize another beliefs,, for she is not preachy but just sharing her bliefs, christianity is not nonsense, but is what some people can handle like other handle their own path. even in christianity there is individuals. aye jesus was a smart wise man, christianity at his heart is good, just buddhasim, and wicca is good,, if we but look a the essence. i will alwasy come to my freind aid,though they may not ask it ,, that is my path, and myself

ladycj	27 Sep 2002
Oh Holmes, what a beautiful way to say it.

MystiqueMoonlight	27 Sep 2002
Would it be too much to ask for us to send a little guiding light to AmounrA? :) I read the post and yes it is straight forward and very much to the point, but we shouldn't be personally offended by someone else's opinion. (even though the Nazi comparison is probably a little too dramatic) I believe we all have our own unique perspective of a belief, even if it Christianity or Christian Wicca....and although some may follow what they believe to be a united system in that faith at the end of the day our own indiviual personal quality is introduced to it. That's what makes us individual people. I'm not Wiccan, but I can understand the idea of a Christian Wicca faith. I'm not Christian either come to think of it :) Whilst the word is the cruelest weapon of all, it may also serve as the healer of all wounds. Blessed be....

ChrisTheObscure	27 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana I believe in Christianity, not Chruchianity, i follow the words of Christ. *snip* Fundies are fundies whether they quote God, the Goddess, or anything welse :THP Well said liliana....although I no longer call myself a Christian, I was raised as one and I too am highly offended by such a blatant generalisation about Christianity. It's true, some organised churches are corrupt - but let's face it, there are corrupt people in each and every single religion out there. I have met corrupt Jews, very corrupt Pagans, corrupt people of every walk of life and every faith. And to call any religion sought after with good intentions, with a message of love and individual freedom (which is what Christ was all about), "an emotional plague", is both arrogant and ignorant. Chris

Kaz	27 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight I read the post and yes it is straight forward and very much to the point, but we shouldn't be personally offended by someone else's opinion. (even though the Nazi comparison is probably a little too dramatic) e read the posting guidelines, opinions are not a free ticket to say what ever you like to say. kaz

Laurel	27 Sep 2002
Some of the most inspiring women in my life have been Christian witches or Wiccans with a positive attitude towards Christianity and vice versa. Even though after a lot of exploration and soul searching back in the '80s and '90s, I discovered that I'm neither... there are still principles from both paths that guide me to this day. I'm thrilled there are people capable of incorporating both into their lives. The other day I was walking with two friends past a homeless person selling newspapers. They both walked by him and I made them wait while I chatted for a second and gave him $5 and grabbed up my groceries again. As we were walking away, one of my friends says to me in a serious and sincere tone, "Oh my gosh Laurel, I just know you are going to heaven." And without even really thinking about it, I say "But I can't go to heaven- remember, I'm a satanist." Which got her and me laughing... and completely upset our third friend. She's ~very~ unhappy that I'm a practioner of the Left Hand Path and probably thinks I am going to go to hell- she's a Christian Ceremonial Magician who still thinks she herself is probably going to hell because she's a lesbian. But yet she's my friend and I love her even though I personally think some of her ideas are... silly. I'm not a Satanist in the sense I worship the devil or even listen to death metal music and spraypaint 666 on walls. LOL. But when it gets down to it... I'm a satanist as LaVey and modern Satanic organizations define them in all ways except two- I refuse to buy into "right is might" and "manipulate the masses". I'm too much of an antinomian to unquestioningly buy the anarchist/satanic party line and I'm too much of an optimist to believe that 100% selfishness works. My beliefs are what I make them- and I take what works, from everyone and everything. If I can be a life loving, light embracing, compassionate, philanthropic satanist and be true to myself... then Liliana (who I respect the heck out of) can most DEFINATELY be a Christian Wiccan and be true to herself. There are some very, very incredible Christians out there. There are some rotten Christians out there- its not the religion; its the individual attitudes and behaviors that make the difference. Please please lets not attack anyone else's path, Christian or otherwise. This is the only online forum I've ever encountered where so many amazing diverse people with so many amazing diverse visions can be safe to express the truth about themselves and be greeted with open-mindedness, support, curiousity and acceptance. Anything that changes that, even for one day, is tragic.

AmounrA	27 Sep 2002
I did think long and hard before pressing the 'submit reply' button. I knew that post was written un-guarded and without a mask. I am sorry if I personally offended any-body, but not if I offended there religion. If your faith is strong my words will bounce. I am very aware of sweeping judgements and do try to avoid them. However life would be terrible dull if people didn't shoot from the hip every now and then and express what they truly think about something. I would have to say that from my point of view. If you want to find 'yourself', religion is the last place to go looking. Some religions are very smart and very well thought out...like Buddhism (basically because there is more practice than dogma). I would agree that my thoughts on Christianity would tend to offend a Christian believer (please don't ask my views on Islam), but as Bill Hicks said 'then forgive me:-)'. Liliana-I don't believe in Satan. Reason for my anger?..........The basic state of the world. Perhaps I could ask, after 2000years of Christianity, countless wars and murders committed in its name, why do you persist with this notion that 'god' watches over Christians? And if he does, it’s no god you would find me worshiping.

All Is One	27 Sep 2002
On a positive note: I think the words Mystique wrote are a poetic hymn (can I use that word?) to Tarot and to the Path. Ouote: My path has taken a sharp turn now. Oh I still have my altar, it's an essential part of my life now. But now I realise the Tarot are not just my divinatory tool, they are also a gift. For me the Tarot is my altar, my burning candle. End Ouote I will print those out as a mini-poster for my wall...if it is OK with MM...seldom is it expressed so well. And Dark E...and T-phelia and many others - you are speaking eloquently about your deepest beliefs. I really learned from your words. To Amounra: This will maybe bring me some "issues" from AT folk...but I need to tell you that as a woman who spent years studying the literature of both the church and those oppressed by that church...as well as having been raised by a scientist/agnostic and socialist father and a Unitarian Minister mother... I feel I need to speak to the complications of politicising people's religious beliefs. The horrors of the Catholic Church as a Political Power are every bit as vile as you point out. You are entitled to your opinion (in my opinion)...and I see your point. Lilliana is certainly entitled to create a wiccan Christianity for herself...even if it appears incomprehensible to some of us- we can't exactle say she is doing harm...(as it harms none... etc) It clearly forms a spiritual system for her, and she has not needed to attack any one following other paths to their own spirituality...unless I misssed a whole lot of stuff- which is a possibility. I also know that modern day atrocities continue as a result of this church-state hidden agenda/weapon. Perhaps it would be easier to accept the individuals who believe in this church as they accept us? I do feel you have a right to express your opinions- in certain sense I share them, but the individual who chooses to find their Path in the beauty and ritual of the Catholic Church is not responsible for the history of it's actions. I have been cast out of a marriage ('94, I am now over it and I laugh ) because I would not convert to his religion, which he suddenly found after a year married... I would NOT agree to be "born again" and submit to " the husband as the FOUNDATION of the Family" - accepting that he is responsible, before God, for MY soul. (hee hee) So ...I too have issues with the subject- but ? This may seem a cop-out- and I don't know much about Lilliana... still~ it seems your opinions were aimed more at the institution and political/ social history of the Catholic Church than at any follower thereof. It came off more vehenement (sp?) and personal than I think you intended. But you can speak to that if you wish... I hate to see everyone jump on those who sincerely respond out of a passionate feeling at the time...without any clear malicious attack...but I am hoping we can post our thoughts and stay peaceful in our discussions, accepting that often topics strike a nerve... Nothing so much as politics and religion. Please, folks, let's not scold people...if it is coming from private, passionate conviction...and not outright violation as that squig GG who dropped the t******my comment...and I flipped out...(oops) That remark was posted simply to discust and offend people... so I will go read the rules and hope that this suggestion is taken as intended: let's try and allow a bit of leeway? Okay...now I'm ready to face the firing squad. ~AIO

Liliana	27 Sep 2002
my guess is that the churches are power hungry and want to instill fear of anything other than themselves in the Christians, and they like to think they have the keys to heaven. I dont like the nation under God stuff either, speration of church and state is important. The church tries to make Christians think they cant have true contact with God directly, and i rebel against that. The only thing I found attacking was the jewish nzi comment, i felt that attacking at me directly, the rest was just your belief and your right to them. Im not Catholic, I am now Episcopalian but just recently switched from United Methodist, and may switch again some day im not sure :) Ive also gone tp unitarian universlaist church but theres none in my town now. And Im not the only Christian Wiccan/Witch/Pagan, there a large number of groups on yahoo dedicated to this path. So I know there are hundreds of us online, who knows how many more of us arent online or havent joined a group. Hopefully soon my friend will get her book on Christian Wicca published by Llwelyn, it was in for review last month not sure how its proceeding. And I definately do not judge people on their belief system unless they are hurting someone, I only said what i said because i was hurt by one comment, the rest is just opinion but since i believe differently of course i was going to post my side. Everyone should stand up for what they believe, and the comments havent changed my faith at all. :THP

AmounrA	27 Sep 2002
All is one-wise words, thank you :-) Liliana-The Jewish nazi example was a bit strong...lets settle on a Hindu Atheist :-) I would also say that I live in Britain. This country still marries church and state. My country is called a 'Christian nation', and Christian moral values are considered the ideal for a good 'citizen’. It’s also a land where the Christian cult did unspeakable crimes against 'wiccans/druids', a land where the churches male centred greed is all to clear to see. "And I’m not the only Christian Wiccan/Witch/Pagan, there a large number of groups on yahoo dedicated to this path”, I am sorry I don't understand this.... but, at least your not a born again Christian :-)

All Is One	27 Sep 2002
I apologize if there was a sense that I was referring to any response you made to Amounra...Lilliana! I was reading fast...I did not see YOUR reply at all...I'll lokk again when I get time...in a rush now- But I responded to other people's response...you clearly have many people who love you and understand your views...I was not aware you had even answered the post yourself...or if I did read yours, it was so much less intense? Dont know... I respect both sides of the spectrum As it harms none... & Love is the Law... And I see that A's post would definitely hurt. I would like to hear from Amounra- before we try and interpret the nature of the comments, I think this may fbe the first thing like this I even saw on AT- much less posted on...so I feel initiated in a way... ~AIO

AmounrA	27 Sep 2002
"I think thats what you are getting at amourna now. You dont undrstand mine, and many others, path, just like im sure i dont understand yours, but you think i have the right to believe my way and you have the right to believe yours." Indeed, I am no devil and it is good to have ones beliefs challenged every now and again. I accept your right to follow any religon you choose in any order....but that doesn't mean I have to respect any of the religons themselves, or that religons belief systems . I am aware this works both ways. I am sure my belief systems are as 'relatively' flawed as everyone elses.(this is why I am trying to give them up:-). All is one-love is the law......love under will.

HOLMES	27 Sep 2002
that is all well and good,,, yet, to attack another path is not respecting the right to follow any religions they choose to follow in any order, someone sharing their path, is to respected after all that is why we started the thread to share paths without fear of attack it is kind of like we have a chrisitan homemaker on the reserve who condemns me for my interest in tarot.. yet i accept her beliefs for i respect her as person,, so i put my tarot away when they come to my house. not to hide them for i showed her my soul tidings cards :O) but to respect and not offend. it could be liken to walking on egg shells but not to me.. when somone follows another path i dont go and preach tarot to them,, less they come for a tarot reading, eheh

MystiqueMoonlight	28 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kaz e read the posting guidelines, opinions are not a free ticket to say what ever you like to say. kaz I don't understand what you mean? :) Are you just funning? Isn't an opinion merely just that? Saying whatever you want to say LOL

AmounrA	28 Sep 2002
"to attack another path is not respecting the right to follow any religions they choose to follow in any order, someone sharing their path, is to respected after all that is why we started the thread to share paths without fear of attack" What you say is often correct, but not a 'truth'. I CAN 'attack' a religon without dis-respecting peoples right to be part of it. I would say-Never fear an attack which comes in the form of written words -this is why your previous reply bounces off me, I am not personally offended by your attack. Tarotphelia-"Another pleasant thread gone right down the crapper! "..I don't agree with you there one bit. "Prostrate with frustration", lol ! Diana- "And I also want to learn to open my heart and be more tolerant and loving towards others, and especially to myself.".. I agree with these words. I could learn this a bit more myself, and I do really try whenever possible not to 'let things get to me'.....but there do come times when belief systems become -intolerable- ths is a hard one for the spiritual walker to deal with. Do we rise above them, ignoring them? (walk on by), or do when take them on? Can the spiritual path walkers afford to ignore the 'reality' of the world, or should there paths take them into the political and buisness side of the human civilization, which rape the Earth and the quality of life of billions (of human and non human beings). To enlarge the original question from 'what is your next step on your spiritual path', to 'what is our next step on our spiritual path' would perhaps be an interesting thing. The basic truth must be faced, that for all our meditating/praying etc, the world is sinking into more and more distruction and chaos. The next step collectively could be extinction .

Diana	28 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA "-Never fear an attack which comes in the form of written words - AmounrA: Who said that the pen is more powerful than the sword? Words can be used as weapons. And swords are doubled-edged. I agree with you that spirituality is not enough - it should be taken a step further into, as you say, (for instance), politics and business. Otherwise the dark forces will most definitely win, while the so-called enlightened ones sit and dream of better days. Has anyone ever seen the anime series "Fist of the North Star"? It could be a vision of our future. It is not a nice vision.

RedWood	28 Sep 2002
I think everyone does the best they can...Will i ever go into politics with my spirituality to make things better..Definately not..I have no interest and i do not want to be sucked in...We all give what we can at the moment we are in..Things change..moments change...Right now maybe you cant do more then work on yourself...thats ok..later down the road..you can start giving more...Maybe you cant vote right now..maybe you are afraid too...Spirituality is important to all...you do what you can in the way you can..start changing the little things..you dont like something ..vote for your state representive and governer..you cant blame them if you dont take the step..Maybe your kid is sick that day and you cant do it..its ok..you do what you can in the moment that you are in...A big step is finding out about yourself and what you are capable of doing..spirtiually..mundanely...you need support..that it was your friends/spouse/parents/aeclectic is for...We each have our own beliefs..and maybe we come out wrong...We all need to think ..is that what they really meant? I know this person..I see them all the time..I know that isnot the way the meant to sound..its ok..Cuz I do know them or..You know I wont take it that way and go by that they did not mean it in that way..Don't assume the worst all the time....or try not to..A this moment...

Liliana	29 Sep 2002
To maintain the topic of the orginal post i split off the argument from the original next step on spiritual path thread. Anymore of the argiment belongs in here hehe, but i think its resolved now. :THP

AmounrA	29 Sep 2002
"but i think its resolved now." To a degree. However seeing as it is now seperate from the other thread, perhaps I am free to ask... How can Christianity and Wicca be combined? Christianity is the enemy of the pagan. No pagan should have any religous dealing with christianity. Christianity murdered and en-slaved the old craft. The old ways have only become free to re-emerge over the last 200 years. I believe in fact, until last year it was illegal in Australia to do tarot reading professionally. Wicca was only made legal in Britain in the 1950's. I respect a persons right to become a Christian, but I don't respect there choice. The jewish nazi suggestion that caused such over-reaction was meant like this pagan[jewish]--nazi[christian] This is how it is valid--the nazis tried to commit a genocide against the jews.The christians tried to commit a genocide against the pagans.

Diana	29 Sep 2002
AmounrA: I am not a Wiccan, so I can't respond to that side of your question. I am not a Christian anymore, but I was brought up in a kind-of Christian environment. It is not Christianity who did all those things you mention. It was not Christianity who carried out the Inquisition either. Power hungry, megalomaniac (many of which were psychopaths), carried out their evil deeds in the NAME of Christianity. Christianity was used and abused by people who were nutcases, and unfortunately, also by people who were allies of the dark forces. It is far easier to break an enemy from within. I don't think that Jesus Christ would condone any of this. And this time round, he would probably not say "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do". I suspect he'd find something else to say and do. It's like with Tarot. If Tarot was suddenly discovered by the power-hungry nutcases to be a way to control the masses, would we end up by condemning Tarot, or the people who have abused it?

AmounrA	29 Sep 2002
..ahh but..The Christian 'one true god' let it all happen in 'his' name. So either the Christian 'one true god’ was willing to let it happen.... or perhaps there is no substance to Christianity [i.e. its all made up]. I believe a man called Jesus lived. I think he was a freedom fighter. After his death his life, stories and rumours started to go about. Before long he was 'the son of god', 'the saviour’, 'a miracle worker’. etc...Christianity is built on lies, corruption and fantasy. :-)

jema	29 Sep 2002
this has me wondering... such bitter hate. a bit like a christian condemning paganism! that tone is just the same. paganism and christianity has gone hand in hand for centuries. my own grandfather was a christian heathen who kept the old tales alive and sang in church with equal gusto and a pure heart. voudun or voodo is strongly coloured by catolic faith. the norse religion had a major upswing when sweden was christianed. in fact the very symbol for asatru - the mjölner hammer didn't get popular until the christians came up here flaunting their crosses. religions merge and feed off each other all the time. genocide has happend before. in some cases the christians has been on the receiving end. up until now it is still not ok to be a christian in some countries. and here i could go on with a history lesson that we really should separate todays paganism with the old faith. todays wicca is something quite different from the paganism of old times. and no, i am not christian or wicca. but i have been both. (only not at the same time) i can't say i respect or disrespect anyone here - it is just not my place to pass judgment. if liliana is a christian wicca - fine, laurel is left hand path - fine. i am interested in learning things from them but i truly can't say if one is wrong or one is right (or left;)) i guess my question is: whjy get so worked up about it? i found that for me personally - i couldn't move on on my own spiritual path until i had forgiven the past. for years i was stuck in a hatred for Jehovas Witnesses. i blamed them for ruining my life etc. as long as i had that wound i could not get anywhere and had lots of really difficult moments where i doubted everything. to hold on to hate and resentment will in the end only make the wounds fester and won't lead anywhere. by the way the jewish nazi/hindu atheist are not so incredible as you may think. some people find their spirituality in a church or some other religious setting and it really irks me when other people who are so called open minded and "free spirited" condemns that choice. i am not overly upset. just a bit irked. if i demand freedom and respect i better give it to others too. or i would feel like a fraud.

RedWood	29 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA "but i think its resolved now." To a degree. However seeing as it is now seperate from the other thread, perhaps I am free to ask... How can Christianity and Wicca be combined? Christianity is the enemy of the pagan. No pagan should have any religous dealing with christianity. Christianity murdered and en-slaved the old craft. The old ways have only become free to re-emerge over the last 200 years. I understand what you are saying Amourna..but to me..Saying you shouldnt like christians for what they did years ago ...Is saying..You also should not like Southerners for enslaving the black people..I am southern..Do I agree with slavery NO..It happened...Not all southernes hated slaves..LIke not all northerns wanted them to have freedom..and when they did..Look what the north did to the south after the war..Do I dislike all northerns for what they did..NO..See what I mean..I am not christian..I dont hate all christians and it is a persons choice..Whether anyone agrees or not...Condeming Christianity is just being like them...Everyone race...religion...north..south..has good and bad people...Most of my family are what they would consider Christian..let me tell you about the lectures we would get..Woooheee..But all I say..is I respect your decision..whether I agree or not...Nicely and sweetly..it throws them off...I dont say you are GOING TO HELL FOR BEING CHRISTIAN HAHAHAHHA...I hate all of you..etc..whats the point..>Ack gotta end it..sons home!

AmounrA	29 Sep 2002
Why get so worked up? I see christian based western society as holding us back as a species . The two hawk leaders at the moment [t.blair-jw bush are both active christians. This cult needs to be left behind so we can progress into new levels of experience as a world and species. ...But alas the lie persists! If you close your eyes and seal your ears you are home. No Religon required. redwood-just seen your reply, as we posted at about the same time. I would say this--a clear simple study of christianity would show the average intelligent person that it is non-sense...a man made system of dogma. Therefore it would compassionate to point this out to those poor mis-lead and trapped people , who are genuinely seeking so sort of spiritual truth. Surely now in the 21st century we can say--its a blind ally?

Frequency	29 Sep 2002
The Church of Satan holds that we come to them, and not the other way around. No matter what you are taught as a child. I don't go around trashing Christianity, even if it is the complete reversal of my INTERPRETATION of how things are. Remember everyone, truth is arbitrary. If a person goes to church, as I did, they may embrace it with open arms, or they may shun it. It makes no difference. My environment caused me to find peace elsewhere, THAT IS ALL. Perhaps Liliani finds peace in what she believes the same way I find peace in what I believe. To put this in 'Satanist terms': We walk alone and whomever we meet along the way we may take them under our wings and welcome them or push them away. Love completely those who deserve your love, and never turn the cheek to your enemy. This goes a long way for me. It was never meant to imply combat; it can be applied to many things. "Don't let your enemies control you" is a better way to explain it, imho, but the CoS has always enjoyed spinning things to make them sound more sinister when they really aren't. The last thing the CoS wants is a trace of hatred. It's not there. You can search for it forever and you will never find it. Before you tell me that it is hostile to Christianity or Eastern religions, I can quote Anton LaVey and tell you that the Satanic Bible was not an attempt to blaspheme, it instilled doubt. The CoS does not want followers. If you find peace, good, if you don't agree with their practices they hold that they have full power to disregard you. Furthermore, they know that the only Satanists are leaders as followers will simply follow. The entirely philosophy is contrary to following anything. Therefor, it only makes sense to not walk into the trap of "everyone should become a Satanist" because not everyone will be. This leads to "don't chase after people who believe things contrary to what you believe". Understand, AmounrA? Laurel said that the CoS is all about manipulating and 100% indulgence but I have yet to see that. It's psychology mixed in with fantasy. Anton LaVey, by creating the Satanic Witch, shows the practioner HOW to do it because the knowledge will benefit your life. I find equilibrium in the CoS, not "100% indulgence and manipulation". Remember, the CoS is about indiviualism and human nature AS THEY PERCIEVE IT. I just happen to agree with them. Laurel, maybe you should explore the CoS some more if that is where your reservations lie.

AmounrA	29 Sep 2002
What are you going on about the church of satan for? I don't believe in the validity of christianity--so therefore I don't believe in the validity of satan. At no point have I said christianity should be banned, or christians burnt. I have just said, in my mind, its a blind ally. These days science has shown up so much more of the magick and beauty in 'universe', religon is just an old comfort blanket we don't need....(it's a stone around our feet)

Liliana	29 Sep 2002
Frankly Amourna Im not even going to bother having the discussion with you, your eyes are too blinded by hate to be able to honestly listen to anything i say. I am sorry for whatever the church did to you. I wish I could make you understand the Church and Christianity are seperate entities. The greatest gift from God was our free will, including doing terrible things, even if we say it is in his name. Pagan Gods were happy with human sacrifices, all religions have violence. But none of that matters, youve condemned all hristians by the acts of the few, just like some Christians condemn all Pagans by the stupid cult murders that theyve heard of happening. How I combine Christianity and Wicca is really not something you are interested in hearing about, and Im not intereted in arguing about its abilit to exist. Dont throw your perals before the swine, they'll just trample them. Ive argued my religion enough elewhere, and here is the one place not specifically for my path i thought i could share who i was without having to defend it. Guess I was a little naive. :THP

Diana	30 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana I wish I could make you understand the Church and Christianity are seperate entities. :THP AmounrA: Please heed Liliana's sentence. It may bring you more peace, for it may remove the bitterness that I perceive in your heart. Personally, I have great feelings of antagonism and my dislike for the Church organisation runs deep (especially certain churches.) But I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathtub.

Bella	30 Sep 2002
AmounrA: First off, it's sad to see you in this attack mode, which seems to directed both at Liliana, a very vital, respected member of AT, and Christianity, whether combined with Wicca or not. That being said, I think you are showing ignorance, prejudice, and rudeness in your posts. Rude--Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not give you the right to slam someone or their religion. You are being hypocritical. Prejudice-a definite, "my way is better than your way, cause your way stinks" attitude. Having a closed mind... Ignorant--Liliana is trying to point out that Christianity is not the same as "the Church." Christians follow the teachings of Christ, and yes, believe He is the son of God. But even if you do not believe that he is deity, and just a "freedom fighter" can you find fault with His teachings? you say: "a...simple study of Christianity would show the average intelligent person that it is nonsense" this comment is not even worthy of argument. AT is built of people with all different beliefs, and it's nice to see that almost all of us listen with open minds when others discuss what they believe. Even when we don't agree, there is level of respect that we have for each other here that is rarely found on other forums. and for the record, I follow Christian Wicca (and it took me a lot of research and quite a while to find my path), I have a doctorate in biochemistry (guess that would make me your "average intelligent person"...), and I do not attend any church.

AmounrA	30 Sep 2002
I accept every argument that is put against me. You are all of course correct. My attack on Christianity and christian pagans was un-called for and not positive. In future I will endevor to say every thing is brilliant and great, and will never again be 'small minded' enough to be critical of 'christian pagans'. I hate to think what the world would have been like if Jesus had never been born, it would not be the garden of purity and happiness it is today. Although none of the christian pagans have explained any of the questions I have asked, instead prefering to attack me personally, I still love you. Why did the christian god let the witch hunts happen? Why did the christian god let the catholic church obtain such power ? "Prejudice-a definite, "my way is better than your way, cause your way stinks" " AT is built of people with all different beliefs, and it's nice to see that almost all of us listen with open minds when others discuss what they believe. Even when we don't agree, there is level of respect"...I have not been offensive to anyone--just the religon. No-one came back at me with any argument, just 'dis-may'and the moral virtue of respecting everything and everyone. I am the one dis-appointed, that AT seems to be some new age love in, where every one loves or respects everyone elses believes. ( I completly agree about personal nasty remarks...but I have made none) You have shown no respect for my beliefs--your as bad as me. Rising to the bait , and attacking...Budda would be dis-appointed :-) Life long, be happy....

Liliana	30 Sep 2002
I did answer your question. God will never violate our free will, plain and simple as that, and some power hungry humans decided to do some horrible things in his name, doesnt mean that he actually was behind what they were doing. I guess the Catholic church got its power through terror, and for offering people something to believe in. I know little of how the Catholic church got to where it is. But I believe it all was will versus will, God did not give the Catholic church or the witch hunters any divine blessings. Religions have fought against each other always, not just Pagans against Christians but Pagans against Pagans and even Christians against Christians, not to menton other world religions. I didnt see ANY Gods intervening anywhere. The questions could easily be reversed, why didnt the Pagan Gods stop Christianity? Were they weaker than the Christian God? Or is it that they were in the same boat as the Christian God and couldnt do anything. How often does most of the planet listen to what God says? Or, if they do, how often is it their own ego not God, but they are full enough of themselves to believe God was the one talking? Happens more than we'd like to believe. Im not trying to attack you personally, tho some other people have, Im attacking your closemindedness. All Spirituality is welcome in the Spirituality forum, and Im afraid new people will read what you just did and be afraid to post bout who they are and what they really believe, thinking you or someone else like you wil tear them apart like you did me. Im a big girl, i can hande it, but I dont want it happening to anyone else. So if a newbie is reading this, dont worry about posting your true thoughts, most people will not attack you. In fact ive been open about my spirituaal path for many months now and this is the first problem with it thats been had, in fact many others have thanked me for showing them something they felt they could use. You have every right to hate Christianity AMourna, its the public bashing of it we have a problem with, just as we would if a fundie christian came on and started bashing pagans :THP

ChrisTheObscure	30 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA Why did the christian god let the witch hunts happen? Why did the christian god let the catholic church obtain such power ? Did you even read what Liliana said about free will? It is one of the most precious gifts humankind has been given. It is what ALLOWS us to connect with and have a meaningful relationship with the divine, however we may view it. I will answer your questions with another question: Why did the pagan God/Goddess let the witch hunts happen? Why did the pagan God/Goddess let the christian church, usurper that you claim it is, rise to such power? We humans have mucked up the earth and how we relate to each other. The Church is a man-made, and therefore flawed, institution that has strayed from what Jesus Christ taught. Which, by the way, was a personal connection with the divine, forgiveness and goodwill for your fellow-man - do these things make no sense, as you said? Don't go blaming Gods and Goddesses for that which human beings, flawed and imperfect, are responsible for. C.

ihcoyc	30 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA Why did the christian god let the witch hunts happen? Why did the christian god let the catholic church obtain such power ? Christianity, or at least the version I believe in, teaches us that the human heart is vile and depraved, and desperately wicked, and that every person is born with a predisposition to be and do evil. This is, I know, the kind of teaching that turns many people off from Christianity and drives them into the embrace of sunnier faiths. Like Bob Dylan said, It ain't easy to swallow, it sticks in the throat. Still, this doctrine does seem plausible as an explanation of the observed behaviour of humans in their unnatural habitats. The one thing that the New Testament absolutely does not contain is any sort of political programme. The sum of the political thinking in there seems to be that the government is mostly to do good, but it's best to stay clear of it by obeying the conscionable laws and steering clear of the courthouse. Jesus disclaimed any thought of founding an earthly kingdom this time around. The greatest apostasy and heresy in Christianity, IMO, is the idea of "christendom," the notion that a civil society could be either managed by a church for the betterment of souls, or somehow suffused with Christian values. This got a big boost when the church became entangled in the politics of the Roman empire. The church was far more damaged by imperial favour than it ever was by persecution. The church became a feudal lord, part of the power structure, and for a while was the most powerful institution in Europe. All of the evil acts you complain of --- and yes, I will admit, they were evil, and they were done in the name of Jesus Christ --- stem from this period. Because the gauds and pomps of earthly power are so seductive to human sinners, and because optimistic faiths are more accomodating to the merely mortal mind than the grim truths we are supposed to accept, the Christian churches are in need of constant reformation to bring them back to their roots. We must constantly be reminded to treat our fellow sinners with grace and charity in the example of the Master. It should neither shock nor offend any Christian to be reminded that we often fail. We knew we would stumble, and stumble often, from the beginning.

AmounrA	30 Sep 2002
I have posted here for a year, and in160'odd posts, this is the first time I have got involved in such a 'heated banter'...so I don't think you need to worry about me. Free will is it?....then why send jesus in the first place?. "I didnt see ANY Gods intervening anywhere."....indeed so where have all the religous names and texts come from? What is the evidence to support religon? The points made against Pagans are totally valid...perhaps a pagan will let us know the answer. Feel free to bash pagans..I am not religous, and will probably agree with your points against it. "We humans have mucked up the earth and how we relate to each other. The Church is a man-made, and therefore flawed, institution that has strayed from what Jesus Christ taught. Which, by the way, was a personal connection with the divine, forgiveness and goodwill for your fellow-man - do these things make no sense, as you said?" --Is that such a revelation? Did 'god' really need to send a son to tell us this ! "Why did the pagan God/Goddess let the christian church, usurper that you claim it is, rise to such power?" because there's no 'god' involved...its all human reality constructs.

Liliana	30 Sep 2002
Well, then, there you go, we cant argue religion with person who has none at all, so i guess the real question is why get into a religious vbattle of you dont believe in it at all? I have no explanations for what you ask, and neither does anyone else, but i have faith and that gives me comfort. Id be cold and lonely without it. I know what I feel and what I gain comfort from, and apparently what you believe (or dont) makes you happy, so the argument doesnt really matter :THP

HOLMES	30 Sep 2002
he didnt' send jesus ,, jesus volunteered, and all though his life he made the choice to be the awakened brother of us all. he knew that he was going to die and he choose to do it. for for him the message was more powerful then his life.. gods can not interfere with the free will, even when a spirit approaches another it is ther free will if they believe, or want to listen, postive or negative. yes he did ,, for even now we dont' listen, to a son who is like us all sons, universal message which were most likely diluted through ages. the pagan gods are still around, and so is the goddesses, mother earthfor example. "You have shown no respect for my beliefs--your as bad as me. Rising to the bait , and attacking...Budda would be dis-appointed :-)" i dont know how to do quotes but you wrote this, simple fact you have no beliefs, no light to guide you and thus your seek to take away the light from others, and buddha ? he woudlnt' care content in his path. oh and i am canadian nativ indian,, not canadian american, and i dont' use first nation for though we may of came to canada first.. we were all on the earth at the same time. so no one came first. oh i got the message all right,, how can i who is native canadian ojibwe indian stand by christiinity ? in my own opnion it was the government and some officals in canada that made the residental schools, and made laws against my own native people praticing their own spiiritualiy. not the source, not the bible,, but some people who were in power, (the physical abuse, and sexual abuse of these schools were documened no need to go into that , they were weak human beings trying to be spiritual and not the source) and my words here are which would you rather have,, a dictator, tyrant god who controls every aspects, of one life , or a loving source who let people make their own decisions for in the long couse of evolutions ,, we have come so far,, and got so far to go. things like course in miracles, the tarot,, i ching,, tao ,, are all signposts that point us into the direction of finding out who we are really are, a spark of the devine, light in human from, which when it expires are free to unit with the greater aspects of ourselves, our souls and soul groups, recently i too was offered the course of magic,, after i read my life with spirits, i felt like you remember that aspect of yourself you can do it again, but i remember i commited myself to the path of light which the beings of light being angelic brothers follow. and from here , the thing to do is agree to disagree, those with faith you can not shake, and those with faith will not preach to you , but just answer to your statements nd therfore is where the war will continue,, the war of ego vs source, faith vs the faithless, who were proscueted for their faith, yup inquistors proscurte the pagans, in the name of the god, christians were proscuted for their faith, i as a tarot reader is proscuted for my faith on my communiy by some christans,, and even atheists who call me witch, amourna, your pm to me said love light, so how is it love light to critise another path in the first place, i am not critizing your non beliefs, just the critizing of our path, sigh, faith, and beliefs is a fragile thing to some, and can easily be shaken, to wish to do that, and wreck their whole world is not good karma,

Violet Gargoyle	30 Sep 2002
Point of Fact: There are several paths of Buddhism, some with dieties, some without. There are certainly Christian Buddhists as well as Pagan ones and Hindi ones. The Buddha that I have seen mentioned here resembles more of Taoism, but I am splitting hairs and its all up to interpretation. Why do I bring this up? I'm tracing the path lines. Buddism and Hinduism influence each other. Hinduism and Paganism influence each other, Paganism, Christianity, and the Church of Satan influence each other (you have already brought out the points on whether or not I find agreement with this), Christianity and Judaism influence each other, Judaism and Islam influence each other....so one and so forth and to varying degrees and combinations and into a circle it goes. Buddhist Bodsivattas are not that much different than Saints. Both are based off of holy followers with human flaws. Mary Magdeline, Mary, and Anne is not much different than the Maiden, Mother, and Crone forms of the Goddess. Sons of God(s), Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna are holy men to the culture that they bring wisdom to. All seem to be kind and gentle influences. Everyone celebrates New Year's Day at sometime. Its the personal interpretations by humans that are the pain. Doctrines get changed and manipulated, then changed and manipulated again according to who is in control of what culture at which particular time. It's is not the religions' paths or the holy men that have provided the problems, it is how it gets taught and changed and reinterpreted and spoon-fed without question from an authority figure to the willing or fearful. Human behavior shows that individual people use the society around them as the "parent" part to their child relationship- including in its rebellions to gain individuality. When these "Children" grow up and become the new "Parent" (authority/society) the chain continues on. This is not focused on a particular path, because all major belief systems have had times when they were in control and reinterpreted their doctrine to gain more power. If you feel sure of your path: Have you taken the time to learn of other religious paths other than your own? A world religion class? Comparitive Mythology class? Studying under a teacher in a path different than your own? Going to a holy place in a religion other than your own? Studying a path that appears to have opposite beliefs than your own (not being forced into it, I know that is not inducive of a equal learning environment)? Have you read at least 3 books about any religious path other than your own: One for the religion, One against it, and one completely neutral? Can you listen at square one to different religious ideas in silence, and not pass any opinion good nor bad, about the path that you are listening about? Can you find beauty in other religious paths without sarcasm, without using forms the word "ignorance" to define it? Can you say that you know that you are right about your own path after taking all this in? I have done all these things and I am grateful, for I have met many beautiful people. That means a lot to me, because I am a very cynical person. I see many of the religious paths represented here, and I find beauty and comfort in all of them, as well as points of discomfort. I am interested in learning more about all of them. I think that all of them ring true, as they are (to me) interpretations of similiar sources. I have more cynicism of human nature and its slips, and those who use or blame a religion for its behavior against fellow humans. I don't mean here in the forums, not personally, I mean in the world and through history. If you ask me, there are not enough humanists in this world. Humanists are not atheists, mind you, and I have met many that are just as spiritual as a priest. I say this because I think religious doctrines often get in the way of basic human treatment to each other, which is what most humanist paths focus on. I could stand to learn more about that path myself. You may disagree with all this, and that's okay. I am prepared for debate. My opinion, to take a name from a fellow Aeclectian, is that All Is One.

HOLMES	30 Sep 2002
ah a quiz,, :O) Have you taken the time to learn of other religious paths other than your own? yup , christianity, shamanism, and my own native spirituality, A world religion class? nope never been to university, Comparitive Mythology class? nope never beento univesity Studying under a teacher in a path different than your own? aye i did that in winnipeg bad experience,but good as well Going to a holy place in a religion other than your own? yup i wen to christianity, and some monk place in winnipeg outside of the border, Studying a path that appears to have opposite beliefs than your own (not being forced into it, I know that is not inducive of a equal learning environment)? nay i study paths that interest me ,, the kabbalah never appeal t me til now, nor numbrolog, nor astrology, and i did study teh iching a bit. Have you read at least 3 books about any religious path other than your own: One for the religion, One against it, and one completely neutral? yup ,, reading one called gnostic tarot which is kind of hard to understand, i read wicca, and books against christinity and for it, and books agaisnt psyhic, and for it, and against the course in miracles and for it. Can you listen at square one of different ideas in silence and not pass any opinion good nor bad about the path that you are listening about? nay,i think moe in does that interes me and how does it affect them. Can you find beauty in other religious paths without sarcasm, without using forms the word "ignorance" to define it? aye :O) Can you say that you know that you are right about your own path after taking all this in? yup, my path is mine , and no one else as is everyone paths, ps. i imed you at delock 25 to say hi that really was me :O)

AmounrA	30 Sep 2002
Good to see this thread is moving away from insults and into a 'good testing banter'. I often attack my own beliefs as savagly as possible, as I believe it help reveal the strengths and weaknesses involved. Violet G.-A lot of questions, I will try my best toanswer them. 1]"Have you taken the time to learn of other religious paths other than your own?" Yes. I was brought up with one side of my family gypsy, and the other half Catholic. At 14 I made a vow to an egyptian god, at about 17 I became a 'Shaman'[s.american and siberian mainly., then progressed into the 'golden dawn', shortly after this i became a sanga in tibetian buddism (love light to the karmapa), after being a sanga(monk) i went into 'freelance' spirituality. today i am a member of no religous idea.(although once a sanga-always a sanga, espesiacially when lucky enough to be in the kagyu order:-) 2]Studying under a teacher in a path different than your own? Yes, I worked within a very 'mystical' 'gang of pirates' closely alligned with thelma for many years. As a Sanga, I studied with Llamas and ti situpa.[in fact i attended puja 3 times a day--at 6am for tara, at 1pm for mahakala and at 7pm } i won't bother with the rest, as basically the answers are yes. in many ways i am playing the role in this thread, i don't really mind christians (they stay out of my way, i try to stay out of theres), but every now and then a wee verbal spiritual battle is good for the paths next step to jump out. i agree 'all is one' or rather everything is connected, even if seperated by 'space'. at some point, i feel the spiritually minded is best advised to dump the religon and knowledge [dogma] and just live 'free' {practice}.

Violet Gargoyle	01 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES ps. i imed you at delock 25 to say hi that really was me :O) Sorry about that! I was at work and I get some...um..interesting people calling, especially when I am sorting through the new adult accounts..... I'll recognize you next time, Holmes! Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA At some point, I feel the spiritually minded is best advised to dump the religon and knowledge [dogma] and just live 'free' {practice}. I don't know that I could give up the knowledge of all the religions that I have absorbed into myself over the years. I think I am a bit of a sponge looking for more to absorb (the Fool, indeed). I realize that I may be different in this manner, and not a lot of people have this take. As long as there is folks willing to let e watch them take their paths so that I could learn from them, the more satisfied I am. Personal eschewment of organized religion you might find some agreement with with me. Just a personal adversity to be made to fit in a defined box, whether it has to do with religion or not. With organization comes dissatisfaction in the ranks. There is a Catch-22 to all that, though, I admit it- as it is not all that easy to learn about another religion unless you have a organization to learn from, sometimes. At least in some cases in my own life. Visiting a Southern Baptist church and a Korean Methodist church for instance. (Oh, yeah, I stuck out in both cases) but what spirituality! I wouldn't have wanted to miss that for anything. Did I agree with all of it? Nah. I always question everything, mostly the people in authority saying whats wrong and whats right. But! The methods to get closer to God(s) are commendable, respectable, beautiful- and for that, wonderful to me. I often get envious, as many times I wish I could be as connected to God/Nature as those I observe. But there is common ground that I can find. Inspirations to my own practices. Those moments when I just know I am doing the right path spiritually for myself. Its like learning to take different scenic trails in the same forest, really. So maybe knowledge is an addiction for me.....

AmounrA	01 Oct 2002
"I often get envious, as many times I wish I could be as connected to God/Nature as those I observe" I think you are already one with 'god', or to put it better, you are already part of the organism which although seperated in space and time externally, is connected from 'within'. I think the kind of 'spiritual' view I have these days is a lot like the ideas pete townsand put forward in 'Tommy'. Whilst obviously, I don't base my 'spiritual universal model', on this work, I do think it is a 'gate'. [like so much great art is] The film version certanly gets the deeper sides of the brain to start pulsating:-) [to me] the fact that I am existing on a sphere in an abyss, is all the spiritual information I need. The fact that we as a species can seem so lost at times, in some ways does not suprise me.....when you think of our location. [a bio-sphere in space] It never stops amazing me how we seem to view the world and our existance as 'rational'..and belief that our simple [cute] religious models are a true portral of what is going on. This is why I say abandon knowledge at a certain point[important note-perhaps you need knowledge to get the knowledge that knowledge doen't have the answers] , for all knowledge is relative and plays off itself. All energy in the universe is connected and aware. We are built from the same energy that is the galaxies....just our energy is in different enviromental conditions. The saying that we are part of 'the one' is true, and 'the one' is part of us. Don't be envious of people seeming closer to it that you. you can't be anycloser to a door than being the door.

Kismet	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana AmounrA: I am not a Wiccan, so I can't respond to that side of your question. I am not a Christian anymore, but I was brought up in a kind-of Christian environment. It is not Christianity who did all those things you mention. It was not Christianity who carried out the Inquisition either. Power hungry, megalomaniac (many of which were psychopaths), carried out their evil deeds in the NAME of Christianity. Christianity was used and abused by people who were nutcases, and unfortunately, also by people who were allies of the dark forces. It is far easier to break an enemy from within. I don't think that Jesus Christ would condone any of this. And this time round, he would probably not say "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do". I suspect he'd find something else to say and do. It's like with Tarot. If Tarot was suddenly discovered by the power-hungry nutcases to be a way to control the masses, would we end up by condemning Tarot, or the people who have abused it? Diana, incredibly well said. I clicked on this thread and my mouth dropped open I was in such a state of shock. I've read several of the postings, not all, hit your's Diana and thought it a good time to vent but believe I'm too in shock currently to address this thread. The one thing I am able to currently share is that my belief is we all have our own path to choose and travel of our own freewill. Some may choose one strict belief, be it Christian, Wiccan, Paganism, Reincarnation, etc,etc and on and on. Others may have beliefs from many various religions and incorporate it in one or be what I call a "free spirit". There are many things I've experienced that cause me to question my beliefs and so I'm personally one of those with beliefs in a few areas and still searching my own path. I was stunned with this "term" Jewish Nazi so won't even address it.

AmounrA	12 Oct 2002
""I've read several of the postings, not all,.."" then... ""I was stunned with this "term" Jewish Nazi so won't even address it."" Perhaps Kismet, if you read the whole thread you would find that its already be addressed & you may understand the nature of this thread more. free spirit works many ways..what do you do when free spirits clash? which free spirit dominates, which submits?...or is it just word play?

Liliana	12 Oct 2002
Neither free spirit should dominate or submit, they should just bump then bounce off in opposite directions ;) :THP

cricket	12 Oct 2002
After reading bits and pieces of this thread (and no, I'm NOT going to go back and read the whole thing, so don't attack me for that), it occurs to me that we all agree to disagree. Should we be religious? When the times call for it, yes. Being religious, imo, is publically preaching your personal spiritual beliefs. The more this happens, the more religious a person is seen to be. Even if they are just repeating what they've been told since birth without ever actually thinking about it. Should we be spiritual? Absolutely. Every one of us is spiritual in some way, shape, or form. Even the athiests who don't think they are. ;) Is there such a thing as a Christian Wiccan? I believe so. The two religions are different in practice more than belief. Or maybe that's the other way around... Either way, they were based on the same things: peace, love, harmony, forgiveness, etc. The main difference between the two is the fact that Christianity is has a much larger following. Christianity is the main power in the western world. While paganism gives people room to find their own personal path, Christianity is more structured. You learn from rote, never questioning anything, just forced to accept things. What about free spirits? I'm one of those. What happens when a free spirit confronts any other religion? Who comes out on top? Neither. They may make each other question a thing or two, but neither one will probably change their beliefs. The same thing happens when two free spirits clash. There is a possibility they can (and will) learn from each other. They might expand each other's minds. The reality is that rarely happens. So, what have we learned from this thread? IMO, not a stinking thing. We know who we all are, and will defend ourselves, but each and every one of us knew that already. In fact, some of us might have become more secure in ourselves simply because our personal beliefs were attacked and came through. Don't like it? Deal with it.

Diana	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cricket While paganism gives people room to find their own personal path, Christianity is more structured. You learn from rote, never questioning anything, just forced to accept things. Sorry cricket, but I believe this to be an unfortunate generalisation. The person who influenced me most regarding my spirituality when I was growing up was a Christian man, and he taught me purely from a Christian point of view. And he always said something like this "Diana, if you cannot prove what I'm telling you, don't believe it. Only believe what you can prove." So there are many Christians out there who are not like sheep, but who actually THINK! And I have a strong suspicion that there are pagans and Wiccans who also learn from rote, who never question things. It depends who you are and where you want to go.

Liliana	12 Oct 2002
My moms one of those wiccans learning from rote right now, she says she just wants to do it right until she figures out what shes doing, then she'll make it her own, but for now its everything has to be EXACTLY like in Wicca:A guide for the Solitary practioner, right down to asking me if white and black handled knives had to have black and white handles lol. Just the way she is :) :THP

cricket	12 Oct 2002
Sorry, but it's a little hard -not- to speak in generalizations like that in a discussion like this one. Of course there are those who are different than the norm. But, as a general rule, and based on my personal experience, what I said stands. In paganism there is more room for personal growth on a personal path than in Christianity. (If a person chooses to think for themself. ;))

AmounrA	12 Oct 2002
What is a 'free spirit'? What is the freedom measured against? If perhaps you knew everything, then made a choice it could be described as free, but if you are dealing with limited information, then, perhaps, you are only free to move in an invisible walled bubble. "Neither free spirit should dominate or submit, they should just bump then bounce off in opposite directions", why should they?...or rather, under whose rules? It is easy to use language in a way that sounds meaningful. A word like 'spiritual','free','god' but what does it really mean. I have never seen any of these things; because they don't exist in any sense other than inside the minds of humans.... even then the same words mean different things to different people. This is where religion for me falls down. All this stuff about holy ghosts, heaven, resurrection, Son of God, is just wordplay. An illusion built within language. I would say that on the whole it’s nice to be nice, and to help when you can. Religion tends to divide people into belief systems that are really self contained reality bubbles... floating in a far bigger sea.... just like every thing else conceived in our minds, whose to know what truth is, if it exists at all.

Liliana	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA "Neither free spirit should dominate or submit, they should just bump then bounce off in opposite directions", why should they?...or rather, under whose rules? Why? Because its easier than arguing religin all the time. Under whose rules? Noones but my own, you can feel free to hang around and try to pop my bubble but dont expect me to subvert to your bubble. Ill just hang around and listen to the other free spirit til eventually it starts repeating itself and I get bored, then Ill ignore it til it foes away and finds someone elses bubble to latch on to. :THP

cricket	12 Oct 2002
AmounrA, you are the perfect example of what I was talking about. You might make people question themselves, and they might make you question yourself. Yet it seems you won't change, and it seems those responding won't change. That's the exact same thing Liliana's talking about with people bouncing off of each other. I'm not trying to criticize at all... just stating it as I see it.

AmounrA	12 Oct 2002
"Why? Because its easier than arguing religin all the time. Under whose rules? Noones but my own, you can feel free to hang around and try to pop my bubble but dont expect me to subvert to your bubble. Ill just hang around and listen to the other free spirit til eventually it starts repeating itself and I get bored, then Ill ignore it til it foes away and finds someone elses bubble to latch on to. " Ahh, the love and compassion of the christian pagan shines so bright. ___________________________________________________ "AmounrA, you are the perfect example of what I was talking about. You might make people question themselves, and they might make you question yourself. Yet it seems you won't change, and it seems those responding won't change. That's the exact same thing Liliana's talking about with people bouncing off of each other. I'm not trying to criticize at all... just stating it as I see it." All power to you Cricket :-), I think questioning yourself does work, over time a deeper part of the mind does listen and does make changes. Sometimes it strikes like a cobra, giving you a moment of clarity/illumination. Sometimes it is slow, If you put a rough pebble in a stream and leave it for a day, you will probably not see any change....but leave it over a longer time, and the effect of other pebbles bouncing off it will start to smooth that pebble.

Liliana	12 Oct 2002
Even the brightest light seems dim when someone turns their back to it :THP

divinerguy	12 Oct 2002
After the Los Angeles riots started, Rodney King said, "Why can't we all just get along?" Well, Rodney, we can't get along because getting along requires compromise. Compromise is a very difficult thing. In order to get something, you must give something. In the area of religion, allowing another belief is considered blasphemous. That's why we have things such as the Crusades, and the spread of Islam via the sword. It continues on today. A popular christian mantra, recited when the faith is challenged, is, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Not much compromise there. Martyrdom in service to God is rewarded by, at least, Christianity and Islam. So long as religious zealots are rewarded in the afterlife, there will always be an ideological struggle. Religion cannot be tested by empirical means, nor can its positions be justified by reason and logic. Although a Christian myself, I ask myself why my fellow believers support the death penalty, yet refer to abortion as murder. Dead is dead, homicide is homicide. Not much morality in either position if you ask me. I'm not familiar with other cultures and religions, but I'm sure that similar ethical inconsistencies exist there as well. Is there a common ground? I don't think so. Because religion is inherently concerned with the metaphysical, no one religion can ever prove its ultimate truth. The debate will exist long after our bones have returned to the earth. Here's a question for you. Rather than try to justify or explain the validity of Tarot, why not just accept the fact that we can't explain it? By ethically catogorizing Tarot as a belief system (i.e., religion), we wouldn't be pressed to explain something is essentially unexplainable. In the end, who really knows. Maybe my mother said it right when I was told not to discuss sex, religion or politics in mixed company. Well, two out of three isn't bad.

AmounrA	12 Oct 2002
Divinerguy, you are the type of Christian I can respect. The arguments I have put up against, in many ways, belief systems themselves catch me out as much as they catch others out. Meaning I know with my belief system, that I can't prove it's true, and am in many ways I consider it to be untrue, (I would be stunned if I had it right,spot on and nailed), despite this, I still have a 'spiritual' belief system, and firmly believe more goes on than meets the senses. I have however conciously tried to get relative concepts like names, jobs out of it (i.e Jesus,budda,mohamed, god, supreme being..etc), stripping down to see if I am left with anything when looking from a 'scientific' viewpoint. What I had left more than satifies me that 'something' not normal,rational or explainable is going on around and in everthing that exists....and that nothing could never have existed:-) That I should not waste my chance to look out of the window, wondering how the window got there, or worshiping and praying to the window. Whatever mine or your beliefs our, I sense we both share the wonderment of 'being here'. I incidently share your dis-taste at abortion. I do accept though that a woman has the right to choose, but I accept it whislt screaming within. This is a can of worms though, I feel is best left alone for a few reasons, mainly though because many women have had abortions and I dearly do not want to cause upset.

Violet Gargoyle	12 Oct 2002
Okay, so I have read the latest additions to the discussion, and I am really hyped up on really strong cold medicine, but I will try to put a penny in about my thoughts. But bear with me because we are going to do some wild turning onto the Exit Surrealism at about.....now..... Okay, what this discussion is reminding me of is Pink Floyd's "The Wall". Bear with me. For all those familiar, do you remember in "The Trial" where all of these folks that put Pink on trial for showing feelings (of an almost human nature) and is sentenced to have his greatest fears exposed to his peers by having the Wall torn down? I am seeing alot of it here. Including myself. I question my Wall all the time. Some people do not make this sort of wall around them, they live in freedom with their ideas and beliefs, exposure is taken in confidence. This is what I wish I could do. Some people have inpenatratable Walls, refusing to believe anything but their own formed opinion of any given situation until the isolation of their ideals creates a distorted and lonely place. This, I am trying to avoid. And some are unware that they have built a Wall until the holes in it are exposed, making the need for emergency masonry (Mother should I build the wall? Mother did it have to be so high?) in the defense system/fort of the human mind. This might take the form of quick talking and perhaps some verbal rocks thrown as a defense. Myself- I attack my own Wall. I don't really want the bricks I have. But I need them to function in todays world. For many of the same valid points that Diverguy brings up. You know what? I find that the attacks I make on myself are worse than the ones that those on the outside try on me. I am jealous of those who can live without these bricks. I work hard to leave something open to explore, and let other people influence me (with extreme caution and a shake of cynicism) so that I dont have to completely close up my Wall. How high is your wall? I still find that I disagree with one of DG's statements that there is no common ground, but only a slight disagreement. I think that I DO see common grounds, but I don't think that everybody, or hardly anybody, is going to see it the same way I do. Humans will act like humans, which is really not much more than animals with books. Bees have a monarch. Ants have a class system. How have we evolved over this? The nature to ponder the whole kit and kaboodle in the first place. Step back and take a look, and then take 2 steps forward for a closer look. I do know that I still want to see the beauty that other people (and animals) see in their own beliefs. I fascinates me and gives me hope. My own empathic nature wants to make sure that I still can feel what other people feel, my only real gift. It shows me things that I would not see otherwise if I did not listen and try to comprehend what they see. We are all connected, just sometimes we don't want to admit it. Another Brick off the wall.... VG

AmounrA	12 Oct 2002
VG, Your speaking my language:-) Another interesting aspect of the pink floyd album, is that it ends where it begins, it could be played on an infinite loop. I sometimes think the whole of human civilization today is ."in quiet desperation, here behind the wall.." We seem to rank ourselves as special beings , well above being an animal, that 'god' holds a special love for us......to that I say...wake up and smell the roses !, put as much conviction into making the world a better place as you do into religon and perhaps we will have a chance of creating it....going into 'interstellar overdrive' :-)

Sinta	13 Oct 2002
It's painful to hear your words and how you criticize something, which lots of people describe as their own way of life. I know everyone has their own opinion, no problem about that. But I would think it wise to have some respect. To me there is no such thing as religion but a way of life. And in that your words criticize that. Sure, I dont agree with everything a "way of life" teaches but if a person chooses it, it has to be respected (of course if it gets drastic like kill everyone else from another religion, etc. there's a problem). Here's an example of what I mean. In Bali the way of life (religion) dictates a lot of things. From births, to coming of age to how you build a house. These people are content to have it this way. They know no other way and if they did learn others, they have the right to choose. Now harsh words about a way of life is taken heavily, because those who practice a belief, can't understand what the fuss is about. They are offended and they feel pushed down and dirty... what they believe and respect and honour is suddenly painted an ugly color by careless words... So I respect your opinion, but please choose your words... When one criticizes a way of life, you criticize people and their culture... and i think at this day and age, we need to stop criticizing and start understanding.

AmounrA	13 Oct 2002
Hello Sinta, In another thread I read, you say your where brought up Christian ,and in another I read you used to do black magic ..and felt the devil card ws haunting you. I accept that in an ideal world, understanding and respecting other peoples paths and cultures is a wise and understanding thing to do. Earth 2002 is not an ideal world. Religon has had a long time now , and has caused nothing but trouble....whats there to understand?

Sinta	13 Oct 2002
LOL. I think you misunderstood.. I was brought up as a Christian yes, though if you ask me what my religion/belief, my answer is "Sea". However you see it.. *shrugs* I cannot explain it. And no, i dont do black magic. An ancestor used to do black magic as he started a pagan religion in the provinces of the Philippines. The devil card... well what can i say.. it is there and i have accepted it. I'm still unsure why it's there, but i have more or less made my peace with it and await to see what does it really mean. True, religion does have it's ugly parts. I agree with you fully there... ick... the crusades, this holy war, etc. etc. These people are fanatics and have manipulated or even changed the doctrine of what they believe in to fit what they want it to. And true, not all religions tolerate others. I've heard even in churches mentioned, thos infidel Islam or those God-betraying Christians... etc. These I believe are preaches not to be listened to. For it starts up a spirit of anger and hatred and then destroys what the true beliefs of that "way of life" are. I guess there will always be trouble, until every religion/belief/way of life/whatever accepts the presence of the other. Different people, different cultures, different way of life. I use the word "understand" because i do not like using the word tolerance. Tolerance is like making one grudgingly accept or tolerate the presence of the other. Understand is to listen to and see the world in the eyes of the other. Well, that's my explanation :)

The Be Religious or not? thread was originally posted on 27 Sep 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.