Possession, evil spirits, lost souls...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

aeonx	12 Nov 2002
Greetings. Well, you who know about these things, jump forward, hit the reply-button and explain! I'm extremely interested in knowing more about these phenomenons. Can one be possessed by 'good' spirits? What kind of spirits are we really talking about here? How do the 'affected'/'infected' person behave? Are there any typical behaviour? How can one determine whether a person is possessed? How do you know that a person is possessed by something? Any archetypical 'symptoms'? Are there a certain type of people being at risk here? Why? Is it dangerous, in both a physical and psychological sense? And most importantly, how the he** do one get rid of these manifestations? Relax, I've not lost my mind. *giggle* However, this matter is important to me, so if you have any information or experience, please add your thoughts. If anyone, of any reason, is reluctant to post here, feel free to pm me. :) ~aeonx~

allibee	13 Nov 2002
Possession – this is not possible but obsession is. The mind is a powerful tool and wrongly used can play tricks. If people have been told, or are themselves convinced, that they are possessed then the mind will oblige. The possession can be (a) imagination; (b) negative energies; (c) a mental imbalance; or (d) the influence of a mischievous spirit who may take advantage of any mental imbalance to draw close. Such a spirit could not, however, physically possess a person’s body – there is no room. Hi Aeonx, the above is a cut and paste job from the mediumship development course I am taking. It was written by Violet Kipling who has written books on the subject of mediumship and development, and is a senior member of the SNU. There is other info on the web, but a) look for the bigger more proficient sites and b) the above statement just about sums it all up anyway. Hope this provides some answers allibee :D

DarkElectric	13 Nov 2002
Aeonx! It has come to my attention that there is an incredible amount of interest in this very subject lately, since there is also an upsurge in the occurence of "extreme" psychic phenomena occuring concerning the internet. And, yes, posession/obsession is more than possible. It is also my opinion that "good" entities do not possess anyone, because anything good is not possessive in nature. I have a client who's going through hell now because of an internet possesion thing. It has been suggested that I start a thread concerning my experiences in disengaging this "person" from my client. This question you posed seems to be on a lot of minds lately, with good reason.

Laurel	13 Nov 2002
My own advice is to research this topic heavily and make up your own mind. One of the best places to start is _Summoning Spirits_ by Konstantinos *if* you are interested in being involved with and talking to spirits yourself. My personal current beliefs: Spirits... ghosts, demons, fey, elementals, what have you.... exist, but they do not exist within Assiah, the material objective world. They have extremely limited ability to communicate with us, unless we meet them "half way". In Kabbalistic terms, this "half way" point would be the Sephiroth Yesod or the World of Yetzirah. I would say that spirits are real when we believe in them. Its impossible for anyone to be possessed by a spirit unless on some level of consciousness, they believe in it and let it happen. Channelers, witches, magicians, shamans, etc., willingly and deliberately expand their consciousness so that their minds go beyond the material objective world into the spiritual subjective world where they communicate with beings of thought form that may possibly exist beyond their own imaginations. Now, there are LOTs of people with firsthand experiences with spirits who would say to me that I'm wrong, that spirits have a very definate impact on the material world. My argument is that what we think of as the material world contains within it the spiritual, and that everything exists simultaneously on more than one level so that we as individuals can "cross over" in consciousness without realizing it has happened. This is -my- opinion on all of this and might or might not be applicable to you. I do believe I have communicated with a number of archangels and experienced ghosts and even "fairie" in my life at various times. I do believe some of these entities were hostile. I don't know whether I created them in my imagination and made them 'real' through belief, or if they existed before I experienced them because they were already brought into manifestation by the beliefs of others.

Laurel	13 Nov 2002
If you want to read a very, very disturbing account of possession, exorcism and demonic activity from a non-Christian, Hermetic/OTO point of view... pick up "My Life With Spirits" by Lon Milo DuQuette and read chapters 18 and 19. It details an experience he was involved in because Israel Regardie called him in to help a friend of a friend. I couldn't sleep well after reading it, it hit me very deeply. I believe the story described here is completely true. The people involved have outstanding reputations and are extremely ethical and experienced. Its very grim and very sad and shows a real link between possession and personal emotional torment, and how difficult it is for anyone outside ourselves to save us, but how one's personal demons can in fact destroy them and everything they love. Its also one of the only accounts I've ever read of a "good" spirit or Egregore turning "bad" and vital understanding for anyone who's involved with a 'pet' spirit of their creation or otherwise. Laurel

allibee	13 Nov 2002
Quote: I would say that spirits are real when we believe in them. Its impossible for anyone to be possessed by a spirit unless on some level of consciousness, they believe in it and let it happen. Channelers, witches, magicians, shamans, etc., willingly and deliberately expand their consciousness so that their minds go beyond the material objective world into the spiritual subjective world where they communicate with beings of thought form that may possibly exist beyond their own imaginations. Now, there are LOTs of people with firsthand experiences with spirits who would say to me that I'm wrong, that spirits have a very definate impact on the material world. My argument is that what we think of as the material world contains within it the spiritual, and that everything exists simultaneously on more than one level so that we as individuals can "cross over" in consciousness without realizing it has happened. Hmmm, you've got me well confused with your outlook, lol. Are you saying there is spiritual but not spirit?? I am a spiritualist and yes I have had first hand experience of spirit, but your first paragraph above seems to contradict your second paragraph.... or maybe I'm just thick ( which is more than likely the case :D ) From my experience and my spiritual education, I agree that spirit is all around us and exists simultaneously with the material world. And that it is a matter of crossing over in conciousness from one physical realm to one non physical. But are you saying in your top quoted paragraph that reaching out and communicating with spirit is just a figment of my imagination? That there iare no spirits in the spiritual realm? confused with all i bee :confused: allibee

aeonx	13 Nov 2002
People, thank you so much for contributing!:) I appreciate all your thoughts, and just keep them coming! *l* However, one of the most imperative factors to me now is how can you tell? How do you know if you, or someone you know, is possessed by something? I've read in a booklet about Human Universal Energy that a few of the 'symptoms' are nightmares, disturbing/weird/abnormal behaviour, acts of violence, inexplicable traumas/injuries and loss of memory. Any thoughts on this? ~aeonx~

aeonx	13 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel If you want to read a very, very disturbing account of possession, exorcism and demonic activity from a non-Christian, Hermetic/OTO point of view... Um, no thanx! :eek: I would not be able to sleep for days if I read something like this now! The disappearance of daylight here is getting to me... *pout* ~aeonx~

Umbrae	14 Nov 2002
There is possession, and obsession, and they are two very different things. What I am about to discuss comes from life experience – not from books. This is not personal opinion stated as fact. Possession exists. The possessed does not have to be a willing recipient. The possessed is not responsible for their state of being. It is true that in some cases obsession appears as though possession exists – but they are different states, as we shall see. The difference is in how do we diagnose true possession, from that of someone who believes they are possessed (obsessed) or someone who is a good actor(ress) and is making you believe they are possessed. The latter two are by far the most common. True diagnosis is made more difficult by popular media, and a wonderful movie from 30 years ago – The Exorcist. Unless the possessor is an undead from recent times (doubtful) where did they pick up the local lingo? On one hand, we all agree they (demons – angels – call them or ascribe whatever label you wish) should be able to speak languages (Latin, Sumerian, Ivrut), but do they speak your local neighborhood slang? Language is the giveaway of the obsessed/actor(ress) persona. The other is the miracle. The moving of furniture – unless you see it for yourself – it did not happen. If a third person swears to it – it did not happen. If the same third person swears to always seeing the miracles – and hearing the ‘possessed’ speak in tongues…you have an actor(ress) pair setting you up as a fool. In a real possession – by either demonic or angelic beings – the ego of the possessor will win. They will be very glad to show you personally what they are made of. There will be no question as to the authenticity. None. And they don’t know the local lingo, nor are they able to type.

allibee	14 Nov 2002
Thanks for clearing that up Umbrae I learn something everyday allibee

Laurel	14 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by allibee Hmmm, you've got me well confused with your outlook, lol. Are you saying there is spiritual but not spirit?? But are you saying in your top quoted paragraph that reaching out and communicating with spirit is just a figment of my imagination? That there iare no spirits in the spiritual realm? allibee Heya Alibee. I'm saying that I am not convinced that what we typically think of as spirits are external to consciousness. However, I am also not convinced that spirits are "make believe" or only "mythically true", either. I am convinced that the reason we can physically strike our hand against a table is because what we think of as "hand" and "table" exist congruently within the physical, material world and are physical, material. I think that spirits cannot strike their hands against the same table, because they a)do not have physical, material hands and b) do not exist congruently within the physical, material world. In a dream or vision or ritualized setting where the consciousness moves beyond the physical, material... spirits can take a form that we interpret as physical but isn't, and attempt to communicate, or receive communication from us. Channeling and possession and invocation may be ways that allow a spirit to access us on a spiritual level and we respond to it as if it were physical and either willingly or unwillingly preform the tasks that the spirit wills. My belief is that the spiritual realm isn't the physical realm, but our senses are not always precise enough to tell us when we leave one and are in the presence of the other. I may or may not be disagreeing with Umbrae (it happens sometimes. Doesn't mean I don't nearly worship da man.), but I don't think that anyone with a 'normal' Will can be possessed by a spirit -unless- they put their consciousness into a non-physical state, such as can be caused by religious ceremony or certain types of drugs, or a sensory deprivation tank, or they otherwise inadvertingly "walk between worlds". This can be as simple as Hermetic or shamanistic ritual, if the person believes in themselves and what they are doing. I do put a strong correlation between belief and experience, and consider the possessor to have a crucial rule in their possession. Now, maybe some day I'll have experiences that change this point of view, like Umbrae has, and I'll be sure to say something, immediately! Laurel

aeonx	14 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae In a real possession – by either demonic or angelic beings – the ego of the possessor will win. They will be very glad to show you personally what they are made of. There will be no question as to the authenticity. None. I don't quite grasp the meaning of this passage. What do you mean by 'showing you personally what they are made of' for example? Otherwise, thanx for sharing the insight. Further, is it possible to be possessed by something and this is not as outstanding as in e.g. The Exorcist? I mean, can the possession cause nightmares, violant actions and so on, as I mentioned above? Again, I ask, does anybody here know how one can tell? ~aeonx~

aeonx	17 Nov 2002
Hm. I refuse to believe that nobody here has any idea. ~aeonx~

Laurel	19 Nov 2002
Heya Aeonx. It sounds like Umbrae might be the only one among us who has personal experience with this phenomenon. You might want to just PM him and ask specific questions. It sounds like there's more than idle curiousity going on, but it may not be a topic you want to discuss with the masses in detail. I don't personally have any direct experience with someone who has been "possessed" per say. I don't consider it a comon phenomenon. My only personal experiences are limited to watching a voudinist summon a loa into themselves and watching them as a vessel of the loa do things they couldn't normally do, archangelic and other forms of evocation, and channelers such as Holmes and none of it is directly relevant to your question. I don't know how to "tell" because I've never had too. LOL. Laurel

Sea Sprite	19 Nov 2002
Thanks Umbrae for sharing! :)

aeonx	21 Nov 2002
Thank you Laurel. PM to Umbrae coming up! :D ~aeonx~

napaea	21 Nov 2002
i admit that i haven't read all of this thread, and am jumping to the end, so sorry if i am repeating anything. i recommend you read "the unquiet dead" by Edith Fiore. it's a 4 dollar book, little, easy to zip through. the basics as i understand it is YES, people can be "posessed", but it's not really like in the "excorcist" or other movies. what often happens is that a person dies, but either doesn't realize they are dead, or they enjoyed certain things about life too much, and they don't want to leave. alcoholics are a good example. this author states that people who frequent bars and are UNAWARE themselves (i/e they are drunk off their gourd, or are not spiritually inclined) can be easily invaded bny the roaming spirit. so dead guy spirit A loved to drink in his life. he passes. now he hangs around old pubs. here comes drunkard B, and he doesn't really pay attention to life, he just wants his booze on friday night. dead guy spirit A can attach himself to this guy, and sort of prompt the live guy to do things, it becomes almost like your subconscious talking to you. in my opinion, there are certain people that are susceptable to this: alcohol and drug users (regular basis, not just occasional); abuse victims - for reasons of vulnerability, and this is covered in the book somewhere, i believe; post traumatic victims; etc, etc. BUT: I have known of cases where a spirit has come into the world with a baby... so this was a past life thing. the child that is born had a past life with the spirit. the spirit waited around for the person to be reborn, and as soon as they were, the spirit roamed around w/the child. i don't know if they can posess a baby, or just wait around until the child is older, i don't know. anyway, i really recommend reading this book. but i also have to say that this is a big part of the author's life, and unless you are out looking for this everyday of your life, i don't think you'll have to deal w/it as much as she does.

napaea	21 Nov 2002
p.s. while i can't say that i have been "posessed", i have had spirits "cling on" to me...pm me if you are still interested in talking about these things

aeonx	21 Nov 2002
napaea: Your post was extremely helpful. PM certainly coming your way. Thank you! :9 ~aeonx~

The Possession, evil spirits, lost souls... thread was originally posted on 12 Nov 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.