From Whence Cometh Wicca?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ophiel	13 Jan 2003
Just like the origins of the Tarot, the origins of the Wicca tradition seem to be veiled in mystery. Much of the Wiccan mystery can be linked to certain events that occured in the mid-twentieth century. The question being, did Gardner "create" the Wicca tradition (he consulted heavily with Aleister Crowley, or so it seems) or is it truly linked to the earliest known Earth religions? I am not of this tradition and have not researched it extensively, only having read it in passing in a few books. The U.S. version of Wicca seems quite different than the tradition studied in the UK and the rest of Europe, the former quite a bit 'lighter' than how the "religion" started off in the UK, either as a new impulse or as the resurfacing of ancient traditions. The earlier version of Wiccan seems based on a tradition of initiation almost on a traditional lineage initiation system, whereas the U.S. version seems more open, as if anybody who wants to self-proclaim themselves Wiccan, is. An author named Hutton recently published a book that was suppose to 'prove' that Gardner's witch mentor was nothing of the kind. However, more traditional Wiccans believe he proved nothing. Any thoughts on this?

Insomnia Turtle	13 Jan 2003
I don't consider myself a Wiccan (far from actually), so maybe I shouldn't be trying to help answer you answer your question, but who knows, I might just be a bit useful :). The reason I am posting is because I once asked someone who practiced what you call the "U.S. Version" why it was so different from Gardner Wicca and he told me to read books written by Scott Cuttingham (one of the titles was something like "becoming a solitary practitioner", but I don't quite remember) who is/was (?) supposed to be or originally was a Trad Wiccan, or so I have been told... of course, I could be remebering wrong. Maybe if you pick up some of his books you'll get a clearer understanding of the differences. As for my personal thoughts on the origins of Wicca, does it really matter? So what if Gardner pulled a bunch of crap out of his hole to create his religion? What's important in religion, to me anyway, is not how it originated, but how it makes one FEEL. If you think about it, ALL religions are man made systems. To me, the point really isn't who made them. What makes you feel right? What religion, if any at all, sing to your soul? In the end, it's all about what works for you. Of course, this is coming from someone who doesn't label her religion, so maybe my opinion wouldn't count to most people :).

Martin	13 Jan 2003
Hello, It is nearly 100% certain that Wicca was made up by Gardner or just before his time. That witchcraft existed before him and contemporary with him is a difficult question. The trouble is what does one define as a witch? Does celebrating seasons make a witch? No. Does folk magic count? Well, no because if one looks at most accounts of folk magic & medicine then they will discover that they utilise christian belief, norse belief and some celtic. I doubt that witchcraft has ever existed as a formalised system, but I don't doubt that much of what has now been integrated into modern witchcraft, and wicca for that matter, has some ancient precedents. Those that still cling to the idea of wicca being ancient are deluded, you can find the roots of wicca in freemasonry, the OTO, the Golden Dawn, folk magic, high magic and the various other traditions out of which it arose. What is much more interesting is questioning why it became so popular. Anyway, if you are interested I recommend reading Huttons Triumph of the Moon. Martin

Ophiel	13 Jan 2003
Insomnia Turtle: Don't get me wrong...I'm VERY familiar with what books are out there, as in Cunningham, Ravenwolf, Conway, etc. I don't read them, but I have a pretty good idea what's in them. I was looking more to start a fight, I mean, um, a debate, about the origins of Wicca. I don't really know where it came from and I know there are Wiccas in here, probably from all sides of the pond. I'm curious about the Aussie Wiccies...do you align closer with the UK or the U.S.? I'm guessing, UK, right? You do have that bond with the UK. Personally, I would be more comfortable with the UK version of things. And a step further, possibly more of the Traditional Craft, as those who practice witchcraft and want nothing to do with the Wiccan movement at all, seem to ID themselves. This is one of those topics that cannot be proven. Where did the Tarot come from? Prove it! The mystery of the Tarot is buried long ago (not to say that someday 'evidence' will not be dug up) while the mysteries of Wicca are still freshly buried in the middle of the 20th century!

Sulis	13 Jan 2003
As I see it Wicca is a religeon founded by Gerald Gardner after the repeal of the anti-witchcraft laws in England in the 1950`s. It`s a coven based religeon with 3 levels of intitiation. Maxine and Alex Sanders who were members of Gardners coven formed their own traditon - Alexandrian which is very similar to the Gardnerian tradition. Janet and Stewart Farrar`s books are based on the Alexandrian tradition as they were members of his coven. There are other wiccan traditions eg Dianic Wicca and Faery Wicca, these are also coven based. I know that in England some Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wiccans object to solitary self taught witches calling themselves Wiccan as they have had no formal Wiccan training and I think that a lot of British solitaries would prefer the term witch. Love and light Crystalmynx xx

napaea	13 Jan 2003
this is just my opinion, as i am not a Wiccan. SO ALL YOU WICCANS OUT THERE, COME HERE AND TALK! Gardner made popular the beliefs and rituals, etc of Wicca. i don't believe he created them. the basic beliefs of Wicca or witchcraft have to do with a polytheistic view of god (more than one gods out there), an appreciation of, love for, and concern for mother earth, and celebrating the goddess and feminine side of the deity, so that both god and goddess are honored. this is just as i understand it. these beliefs and attitudes have been around forever. there have always been cultures who worship gods: the corn god, the rain god, the sky god, and do this to honor the forces that be, and also to not piss off any unknown forces, so that they may have fruitful crops, and good hunts. there have always been medicine people/herbalists/witches: who know which root and herb to use to heal your ailments, who know when to plant their crops for the best yield, who honor the full moon and the seasons by doing what they feel is appropriate and honoring. I feel Gardner explained these traditions to people who were unaware of them. for the most part, witchcraft was an underground tradition for a long time because of the travesties of the 1400-1700's. so witches and covens were secretive. Gardner made public the views and lifestyles of the modern witch, and "Wicca" came to be known. i disagree heartily that he "created" it or "fathered" it. he performed basically as a news reporter, sharing the facts of an old, ancient belief system. that is my opinion having read and researched some about witchcraft. but i'm not versed in "Wiccan", so again, i hope some official wiccans will jump in here.

Insomnia Turtle	13 Jan 2003
Ophiel - Sorry for misunderstanding you before. Have fun :). This may be a tad off topic here, but I find it interesting that the subject of witchcraft has once again creeped into a thread that was, to my understanding, suppose to be about Wicca, which really has nothing to do with witchcraft at all (Feel free to debate on me about this all you want. It might make things interesting). Just thought I would throw that observation out to all who are thinking about posting.

tarotbear	13 Jan 2003
Oh, Goddess! We're not going to get into the dreaded "WHAT IS WICCA?/WHAT IS WITCH?" discussion AGAIN, are we? I have seen this discussion start up on one too many forums and it has no ending, no answers...is a 'NO WIN' situation. This discussion has flared many tempers and destroyed many friendships....please don't let it begin here on Aeclectic, too! Whatever you believe, whatever you want to call yourself is O.K. as long as it is O.K. with you. {retreating in terror to the nearest Tarot bookshelf, with earplugs and a fire extinguisher}

ihcoyc	13 Jan 2003
If you examine what actual pagans wrote about their paganism --- say, the Greeks, Romans, or descriptions of what the Norsemen and Saxons did for their traditional religions --- you'll find that theirs was a very public religion, centered around animal sacrifice as the most important ritual. The values of the religion, in so far as it had any, were centered at least as much in upholding civic virtue, military heroism and conventional sexual morality as they were on veneration of nature. For all that she was a goddess of agriculture, you'd be hard pressed to call the public cult of Demeter at Eleusis an "earth religion." Secret societies formed only a minor part of Greco-Roman paganism, and had nothing to do with Celtic or Germanic versions as far as I know. People were rather leery of spellcasters, and were no less leery for being pagans. Divination was practiced; in the Roman world, usually as an adjunct to the animal sacrifices. Few contemporary varieties of neo-paganism resemble anything from the ancient world at all. They answer more closely to the hopes and fears of people from the twentieth century than they do to anything from antiquity. This is their strength; this also makes their claims to antiquity rather implausible, if these claims are still being made.

zorya	13 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear Whatever you believe, whatever you want to call yourself is O.K. as long as it is O.K. with you. my thoughts exactly! (btw, i'm cool with respectful debate. fighting, passing judgement, disrespect..... not so cool. ;) ) zorya co-mod, spirituality

Ophiel	13 Jan 2003
We seem to be a well-balanced group here, capable of an intelligent discussion. I see no reason to stop this conversation, if others wish to continue posting. If the discussion offends, ignoring it is quite easy. Just don't read the thread!

divinerguy	13 Jan 2003
Trying to find the "true" religion is as easy as shoveling smoke. Its because the metaphysical can't be proven or disproven. Ya gotta take it on faith. Until you get past that one, you're not going to find any comfort in it.

Insomnia Turtle	14 Jan 2003
Tarotbear and Zorya - Sorry if my post gave you the red flags of warning. I really didn't mean it that way. I actually intended it to mean "please don't start that again", but now that I read it, I can totally understand why you took it that way. I tend to be a very sarcastic person when it comes to posting on forums and never think about how others may take it before I post (Sorry about that. Remeber that I am a bit new here and am still getting used to things). I will try and remedy this by interpreting my post into more obvious statements: Previously written: This may be a tad off topic here but I find it interesting that the subject of witchcraft has once again creeped into a thread that was, to my understanding, suppose to be about Wicca, which really has nothing to do with witchcraft at all Translation: This thread's topic is about the origins of Wicca, not the origins of witchcraft, therefore bringing up the subject of witchcraft would technically be considered off topic. Previously written: (Feel free to debate on me about this all you want. It might make things interesting). Translation: This is actually my fault, because I use the words "on me" which I use on another forum I post on and, therefore, would probably not be understood here (especially since it isn't proper english :)). What this should say is as follows: Feel free to send me a private message if you really think you need to debate this. My day has been a little slow so I wouldn't mind a little "heat" for my own words. Previously written: Just thought I would throw that observation out to all who are thinking about posting. Translation: Please think before you post to keep the threads on topic. I hope this clears things up. I will try and tone my sarcasm a little bit (or maybe a lot) in the future :).

lupo138	14 Jan 2003
1) All that follows is my personal belief, not claiming to be "the truth" or something similar 2) I do not claim to be Wiccan as 3) Wicca means initiation. Without initiation one would rather say witch or hedgewitch, but not Wiccan. 4) There are traditional initiations into an existing coven or self-initiations. The former is preferable when possible. (huh - I can see daggers flying into my direction - some have black hilts ;)) 5) There are other traditions than Wicca, too. These could be called, to sum them up, hereditary traditions - I do understand that they do not want to be treated as Wiccan. Not because it would insult them, I think, but just because of the sheer reason that they are something (maybe quite) different. 6) Gerald Gardner went into public with relicts of a cult and admitted himself, he had worked on the rituals in his book of shadows "to make rituals work". That does not mean that he invented all by himself anew. But Wicca can with any right be seen as a religion that got it´s current shape in the first half of the former century. (btw: did catholicism change it´s nature with proclaiming at the end of the 19th century that the Pope is unerring under certain circumstances ? I think so. Is catholicism an invention of the late 19th century then ? I don´t think so. (still more daggers heading in my direction)) 7) The rituals were, as far as one knows these days, not influenced by Mr Crowley, but rather Crowley influenced by Wicca - for details see "Witchcraft for Tomorrow" by Doreen Valiente. I repeat: This is just my personal view. So please do not treat me too harsh :)

napaea	14 Jan 2003
my statement was not to sidetrack into witchcraft instead of Wicca, but to state that from what i understand, Wicca is an offspring of witchcraft. developed out of witchcraft, and is a more formal, religionized system of the same. that is why it was brought up. i have to argue about Demeter: first of all a great many of the gods and goddesses of the Greek and Roman culture actually come from OTHER cultures that were squashed by the Greco/Romanic era. thus, even though the Greeks may not have worshiped Demeter as an "earth goddess" per se, many of these goddesses were originally from pagan cultures who worshiped them as a form of or representation of the earth. Demeter is the Mother goddess form, about nurturing and life giving, very much a part of the earth, both in people, in animals, and in mother nature taking care of us. so i still see her as connected to the earth. and as a side note, i wouldn't really consider Greeks or Romans "pagan". that is what they were called by Christians, but it was the Greek and Roman era that brought about scientific thinking, and started to rule out "religious" views or "spirituality" in favor of science, logic, rule, order, and structure. i would consider other cultures more pagan, egyptian, sumerian, indian, Native American. i agree with lupo about points 1, 2, 4, and 6. the others i don't know enough info about or have no opinion, etc. ***i myself WOULD BE interested in a debate on witchcraft/wiccan, as i don't know enough about either to satisfy myself. ***so if someone DOES want to debate, maybe we could start a seperate thread for that topic, that way others who don't want to relive it won't have to.

zorya	14 Jan 2003
insomnia turtle, no problem ;) my post wasn't directed to you specifically. i meant it as a gentle reminder to all to keep it respectful, as this kind of discussion could easily get heated. ~~~~~~~~~ in the u.s., wicca is an officially recognized religion. witchcraft and paganism however are not. (correct me if i'm wrong anybody, and i hope i am) i believe many in the states call themselves wiccans for this reason.

lupo138	14 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by zorya in the u.s., wicca is an officially recognized religion. witchcraft and paganism however are not. (correct me if i'm wrong anybody, and i hope i am) i believe many in the states call themselves wiccans for this reason. Well - it seems (also from Silver RavenWolf´s and Cunningham´s books) that the American branch is less formalized. That can be seen as an advantage as well as the oppposite - and will depend on the view and traits of the charging person. Btw: I agree with napaea that Wicca is somehow an offspring of witchcraft. Unfortunately that means that we will not be able to enter into a discussion ;)

RingTheory	14 Jan 2003
Wiccan's also have their "witches rede", which did not and does not exist in traditional withcraft. The rede was Gardner's answer to the Christian's Golden Rule.

ihcoyc	14 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by napaea i have to argue about Demeter: first of all a great many of the gods and goddesses of the Greek and Roman culture actually come from OTHER cultures that were squashed by the Greco/Romanic era. thus, even though the Greeks may not have worshiped Demeter as an "earth goddess" per se, many of these goddesses were originally from pagan cultures who worshiped them as a form of or representation of the earth. Demeter is the Mother goddess form, about nurturing and life giving, very much a part of the earth, both in people, in animals, and in mother nature taking care of us. so i still see her as connected to the earth. and as a side note, i wouldn't really consider Greeks or Romans "pagan". that is what they were called by Christians, but it was the Greek and Roman era that brought about scientific thinking, and started to rule out "religious" views or "spirituality" in favor of science, logic, rule, order, and structure. i would consider other cultures more pagan, egyptian, sumerian, indian, Native American. . "Paganism" doesn't mean a great deal outside the context of Christians versus pagans, for indeed, "paganism" is a label stuck on the traditional religions of the classical world by Christians who needed to have some label to hang on what they stood in opposition to. The business about the Greeks and Romans bringing in scientific thinking --- and for that matter ascetical Platonic and Stoical philosophies --- only shows you that the pagans themselves weren't very "pagan" in the neo-pagan sense. Now Demeter did represent the fruitful Earth to the ancient Greeks; but she did so within the context of an agricultural society that had plenty of contact with the dreary industry of ploughing, reaping and sowing, and little leisure to romanticise Nature as something purer, more primal, and more numinous than civilisation. These latter developments represent twentieth century feelings, not classical feelings. And of course Demeter was one of the Olympian Twelve; along with Zeus, Hera, Ares, Athena, Hermes, Apollo, Artemis, Dionysus, and I forget the rest: gods that uphold the might of kings, the sanctity of the domestic hearth, the courage of soldiers in battle, the workmanship of skilled craftspeople, the art of the salesman, the formal and highly wrought art of the classical epic. These gods linger in the shadows, because contemporary neo-pagans feel little need to revive them. Only the latter two, only Artemis and Dionysus, really speak to moderns; and they have to be magnified by claims that they are older and somehow take precedence over the chief gods worshipped by the people who created this pantheon. Whether there is any tradition behind Wicca is almost beside the point, given the major revision of any tradition that might have been there.

Fuzzmello	15 Jan 2003
I'm not a Wiccan, I'm a Vajrayana Buddhist. Talking and sharing with my many Wiccan friends here in Oklahoma (yes, friends, the woods are full of them) I've discovered that Wicca has quite a lot in come with Vajrayana Buddhism. Both can be studied on your own, but you'll need a master for transmission of the really worthwhile practices. Both teach that appearances are not to be trusted. Both demonstrate that there is not dividing line between light and dark forces, in fact they are the same force. Both have mystical practices and rituals that you don't have to participate in to remain true to the belief. Both are based in the concept of a basic goodness permeating all existance. Both are basically misunderstood and abused by mainstream religions, their traditions debased and trivialized, or just openly attacked. Neither are relatively old as formal religions go, yet their origins can be traced through various means as far back as recorded human history and include many changed and changing classic forms of worship and religious expression from around the globe. This makes me think that both are expressions of something very old and very true. Maybe its true nature must be experienced one-on-one and therefore can only be hinted at through ritual and analogized through teachings. Fuzz

Ophiel	15 Jan 2003
I have wanted to read the Gardner material, a few of his books, just to see what he wrote. However, and unfortunately, his books are out of print right now. I could kick myself (and I'm sure a few of you wouldn't mind getting in line, too! lol) that a few years ago I saw "Witchcraft Today" on a bookshelf, some small press issue, and, having no interest in the topic, didn't buy it. I'm really not trying to start trouble in this forum. Actually, it was not too long ago, in another group that includes some UK Wiccans, that I learned there were different approaches to Wicca. I live in the U.S. and the local bookshelves are filled with books by Cunningham, Ravenwolf, McCoy, Conway, etc. There aren't many by Farrar, Gardner, etc. And I have been in touch with some pagans, neo-pagans and Wiccans who follow a darker path. Konstantinos wrote a few books recently, "Nocturnal Witchcraft" and "Gothic Grimoire," that deal with this. Another newer book, "Out of the Shadow" was written by Dark Wyccan (aka John Coughlin) that delve into this. Konstantinos, in his introduction in "Nocturnal Witchcraft," spells it out (as he sees it) by redefining some old ideas, that dark pursuits can also be 'good' and positive. He divides it into four categories, light/good, light/evil, dark/good and dark/evil. Yes, not new ideas, but his presentation was quite interesting. A light/evil would be like the televangelist who seems to be working the light, but is secretly working with very dark forces of deception...or the businessman who has no regard for humanity and intentionally follows a business pursuit that hurts people. The dark phase of the moon is often associated with the healing properties and not all darkness has 'dark' intent. I find the way people group and classify themselves as quite fascinating!

lupo138	15 Jan 2003
I was told the Gardner material would not be THAT fascinating and one would not regret havin spent some time until having read his books. So I have not read Gardner either until now. What I read was Silver Ravenwolf, Cunningham on one hand. And Valiente, the Farrars, Vivienne Crowley on the other hand. And the Budapest and Starhawk. Yes, the approach feels different. Silver Ravenwolf is a bit - well, huffy-fluffy, although I liked her quite much. Her pow-wow magic is certainly unique and not very Wiccan-based. Cunningham is definitely not a contemporary writer ;) Anyway I do not think that Valiente, the Farrars, Vivienne Crowley would like to be understood as "dark". Maybe you will like that one http://www.paganfed.demon.co.uk/window.htm

Laurel	15 Jan 2003
My opinion as a former Wiccan is that as a spiritual philosophy, it was born in the 1950s with Gardner, Leek, and other notables of the time. Its become a remarkable phenomenon, arguably one of the fastest growing religions/spiritual philosophies the world has known, given that it was born in the same era as mass media. It has certain ideals and ideas within it that are much older than the 1950s, of course, just as Thelema has ideals and ideas that are older than Crowley. A lot of things happened in the Western metaphysical community at the same time (give or take a decade and in terms of spiritual systems development a decade is a very short time) that Wicca was born and they all affect each other indirectly.... the publishing of The Golden Dawn by Regardie, Anton LaVey and Satanism, Yoga and Budhist techniques being introduced from the East... Wicca wasn't born in a vacuum, that's most certain, and it continues to influence and be influenced by other pagan-friendly spiritual systems.... and New Age/left-wing Christianity, if one considers the way CUUPs has influenced and been influenced by Universal Unitarianism and the influence the UU has had on other Christian denominations in the last 30 years. Margaret Murray's work on Witch-Cults in Europe and the theory of genuine direct descent of Wicca from pre-Christian paganism had been disproven via scholarship to my satisfaction, but this doesn't mean I consider Wicca any less a valid or dynamic belief system. ~LAS

Insomnia Turtle	15 Jan 2003
Zorya - Actually Wicca isn't the only pagan religion recognised in the US. I'm not sure of all of them, but I do know that Hellenistic (For those of you who don't recognise this word, think Greek) religions are recognised as well. In fact, as this is the US we are talking about, as long as you have a group of people who believe the same thing as you do (probably at least 20 or so) I doubt that most courts in the US would refuse to recognise it. Of course, there is that nasty business of some states not being as open as others, but that's nothing a trip to another state couldn't fix :). Fuzzmello - Forgive me if anyone sees this post as a bit off topic, but yes, it is true that both are basically misunderstood and attacked and abused by mainstream religions. But let's not forget that for every person in a mainstream religion who practices such intolerance toward Wicca and Vajrayana Buddhism there are an equal number of Wiccans and Vajrayana buddhists who do the same thing back. Let's all try and be fair to both sides, ok :)?

Kiama	16 Jan 2003
I was talking to a Hermetic magician last night about the Enocian system, which some say Dee and his friend made up. I asked him, what were the merits of Enochian, if it was just made up. He replied to me... "I think it was made up. But that doesn't affect whether or how well the system works. And it does work." And I think with this one, whether or not Wicca was made up by Gardner, we could say that it works, for thousands upon thousands of people. That's a good thing. :D Kiama

The From Whence Cometh Wicca? thread was originally posted on 13 Jan 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.