“Many are called, few are chosen”

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Umbrae	27 Mar 2003
As readers, undertake the study of Tarot for various reasons, and we end up reading in different styles. Some read the cards, as 78 little ‘stories’ strung together in random order. Some use the cards to open doors to other worlds. Perhaps even psychic experiences. Often, I have written and asked about; “Why do they come to us?” and “Why do you read?” I believe that both questions are important. Most answer them far too quickly – a knee-jerk answer designed to make others read the same and say to themselves, “Oh my, what a lovely answer! How clever!” But too many read for the wrong reasons. Too many read because they perhaps watched too much ‘Charmed’ or ‘Buffy’ and read to be ‘cool’. Tarotbear once said, “Do not open doors you don't know how to close.” Often Tarot does act as a key to open doors of ‘higher thought’. And to those who are not prepared… Tarot is seen by some as a cute parlor game… I have over the years done readings that were wonderful – just plain wonderful. I have also done readings that were akin to being invited to watch a train wreck; where you look in on appalling behavior performed without remorse. There is nothing cute, or amusing about Tarot. On one hand, there is the ethical and/or moralistic issues…”Gee you’re husband is having an affair!”, or “Beware dark parking lots – for therein lies your doom” is unacceptable. Such comments are shunned by morally responsible readers. On the other hand…“Do not open doors you don't know how to close.” Over the years, I have watched many come to Tarot – unprepared, and too young (regardless of calendar years), and not equipped for what may occur when certain doors open. I have watched a few go away with that ‘thousand yard’ stare in their eyes. Damaged forever. Brain-box fried…a mass of fused and melted wires, synapses gone. Look around you… It is also responsible behavior to recognize those on the road to fry-dom…and warn them. Yes their feelings will be hurt, and they will say it’s personal that you don’t like them (I’ve heard it all before), but at least you warned them. Sometimes you must use fear – planted deep within them – to get them to try another path. This path is not for everybody – and each one of us who are readers, must recognize this. Like baby turtles, “Many are called, few are chosen”. …and like Starr the Seeker often says, “Not all, are meant to learn.” So what is my thesis? Steering others, may often be a part of our spiritual path… Just a thought… :smoker:

AYIN	27 Mar 2003
Quote : "It is also responsible behaviour to recognize those on the road to fry-dom…and warn them. Yes their feelings will be hurt, and they will say it’s personal that you don’t like them (I’ve heard it all before), but at least you warned them." Umbrae, from reading many of your posts, you need to watch yourself more and forget watching and "helping" everybody else. You seem confused & inconsistent. I fear you are on the path of fry-dom, so take this as a friendly warning and don't take it personally, (I've heard it all before), but at least I have warned you.

Kiama	27 Mar 2003
He he, I'm beginning to think AYIN is Umbrae's 'other side shadow', since in every single thread of his in the Spirituality forum, AYIN replies... ;) }) Well, personally, I feel Umbrae's overall message conveys something very important. Who cares about the nitpicking of a few sentences? And AYIN, it would be wonderful to see you responding to threads other than just Umbrae's, since you seem to have so much to say for yourself. Be careful, or you could be misconstrued as harassing our poor Swami here... ;) Kiama

Kiama	27 Mar 2003
And besides, Umbrae's post is specifically about Tarot, and how some come to it for the wrong reasons, and end up messed up because of it. These people are those on the way to fry-dom. If you read other threads in other boards here, you will see that Umbrae is not one of those people. He is a brilliant Tarot reader, who knows what he's doing, and is doing it for the right reasons. Kiama

HudsonGray	27 Mar 2003
One of the most important things to learn with tarot is to not ask questions that you don't really want to hear the answers to. These aren't just pieces of pretty paper pictures, they're able to open the doors, like you said. I've got questions I never ask simply BECAUSE I don't want to hear the answers to them, I'm either not ready or there's too much fear, or whatever. I've seen some of the things you mentioned, about others not having remourse, etc. And yes, it's NOT a good thing. There do need to be ethics involved in the reader, we have responsibility to ourselves and to the ones we read for. Beginners don't often think this through at the start. Those that do are the better for it. It helps them make the deeper connections in themselves once the gates are opened.

Melissa`	27 Mar 2003
Ok... I read throught this pretty quickly so please excuse me if I am off base here (I'm in a rush to get to work). Well.. I myself have 'owned' a tarot deck for almost 3 years now. I dabbled with it, sat it away.. dabbled with it.. put it away. Then, I woke up one morning basically and set myself off to work with them. Ever since I have been collecting and trying new spreads. Trying to commit myself to journal work but I seem to lack in the attention side in making myself set time away for that. I believe I'm ready for what lies ahead. I'm not jumping in head first though. I like to do readings for other people. But only to help myself learn more. And I will jump right up and speak when I don't understand something, or unable to read. But with the same token, if anyone here ever sees me on the road to fry-dom, since I am a 'newbie' here so to speak, please tell me :) .. I would hate to look like a fool and walk away with that look in my eyes as Umbrae mentioned. Blessings, Amaya

firemaiden	27 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama He he, I'm beginning to think AYIN is Umbrae's 'other side shadow', since in every single thread of his in the Spirituality forum, AYIN replies... ;) }) plagiarized from: The Ten Alef-Beit Significances Ayin: Concept: The constant watchfulness of G-d over every element within Creation. Meaning: An eye; color; a wellspring; sheep (in Aramaic). Shape: A forced-open nun (the humble servant), with a vav (Divine flux) enwedged inside. Number: 70. Space: Kid-goat (Capricorn). Time: Tevet. Soul: Liver. Sense: Anger. Archetype: Dan. Channel: From binah to tiferet. see website:mystical significance of the Hebrew letters and website: copenhagen qabalah, spiritual technology lab-- ayin (the devil)

lunalafey	27 Mar 2003
Profound Umbrae speaks again. There are those that are captured by the 'romantic' idea of tarot. (like those that have watched these 'magik' shows....I've never seen one) Lost and looking for something maybe? Ready for it? perhaps a few. I believe that the choosen are those that have an innate understanding/connection, while they know very little. They study and learn the connetion level raises. This is not done in weeks or months, it's a lifetime. When I break out the cards I never know what I will get(that door). I can ask a question and have the cards tell me something much more important. I know this to be a possibility, therefore I'm prepared to take whatever comes my way. I pay very close attention to these messages. Then there is the moral responsibility when reading for others. Good judgement and a way with words can be quite a benifit, not all are gifted in this area. Some want a reading, but are emotionally unprepred. What to do at this point? A good reader knows. Amaya...we have not met yet, but I'd like to say that your place in tarot at this moment was very much like mine at 3 years into it, I had a busy schedual, but in bits and slow was good in my sitution at the time. I think the first warning buzzer of one headed for fry-dom are those that eat sleep and drink cards from the first minute they get them in thier hands.....but see, these are just obsessed, compulsive people....nothing is good for them....

Mimers	27 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by AYIN Quote : "It is also responsible behaviour to recognize those on the road to fry-dom…and warn them. Yes their feelings will be hurt, and they will say it’s personal that you don’t like them (I’ve heard it all before), but at least you warned them." Umbrae, from reading many of your posts, you need to watch yourself more and forget watching and "helping" everybody else. You seem confused & inconsistent. I fear you are on the path of fry-dom, so take this as a friendly warning and don't take it personally, (I've heard it all before), but at least I have warned you. I am going to go off topic, which is something I swore I would never do. I am also going language that might offend some. If I do, I appologize, but sometimes the best way to get your point accross is to come right out and say it. This person is a wack job. This is the second thread we have enabled Ayin to disrupt. He has also successfully managed to bring out anger when there is already pleanty enough in the world to go around. Umbrae does not need defending and the kind of statements this person makes do not deserve consideration.

HudsonGray	27 Mar 2003
I just tacked it up to personal opinion. Ayin has only a few posts, after all, and Umbrae had 1776. Umbrae can pretty much take care of him/herself (I don't pay attention too much to gender). No anger here. There's plenty of it on the tv news lately.

Ruby Red Slippers	27 Mar 2003
I have to admit that this thread caught my eye...it should for anyone exposed to catholic upbringing at an early age.... the nuns spoke this phrase over and over...in reference to a vocation to the priesthood or sisterhood. Having grown many years away from that the phrase took on new meaning...our higher self does call many of us.... I believe that Umbrae’s phrase could be said of any profession, especially those that deal with the esoteric. Those that take the responsibility seriously are the chosen. Those who continue to grow, working on themselves…perfecting tweaking and sharing with others as you go. Also, in my mind, included here is the idea that the “teacher sits with the students” Did I read you right Umbrae, or am I way off here??.

DarkElectric	27 Mar 2003
Hey, I got into a situation a while ago where I was attempting to move something ahead too fast, and Umbrae gave me the heads up about it. He didn't mince any words. I appreciated his guidance, took his advice, and learned something more thoroughly than I would have if I'd just kept roaring along the way I was going. I totally didn't know what I was doing, and it had the potential to be dangerous for me. I didn't piss off or get insulted, because, when somebody knows something I don't, and can see something whacked happening to me, and actually tries to help me out... Man, I'm just glad he was there. Thanks Umbrae.

Dark Inquisitor	28 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama He he, I'm beginning to think AYIN is Umbrae's 'other side shadow', since in every single thread of his in the Spirituality forum, AYIN replies... ;) }) Kiama No-- !! Really? I thought it was that GreaterSecrets guy from the upper right coast !( I sure get some wacky ideas sometimes! ) Tarotphelia

firemaiden	28 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I have watched a few go away with that ‘thousand yard’ stare in their eyes. Damaged forever. Brain-box fried…a mass of fused and melted wires, synapses gone. Sometimes you must use fear – planted deep within them – to get them to try another path. :smoker: This idea reminds me of a quote ... http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12636 (... feasting time for the demons...) :) I have also been pondering the dangers for a while... the fear of "losing one's mind" .. and I have asked (without getting a response)-- how is this not the road to schizophrenia? I understand that its not (usually...) but not why !

AnonyMouse	28 Mar 2003
Interesting. I have been reading tarot for a few years now, and I have an interesting observation, noted in many books re. mysticism, occultism, and tarot; Those prone to psychological disorders, do not fare well with regards to tarot. I am not stating this of all people with psychological disorders, but of a wide majority 'in my experience'. Also, Umbrae, I would disagree as to your statement regarding popular television shows. I do not think that a person who grows an interest in tarot due to an exposure to tarot within popular media, is necessarily migrating to tarot for the wrong reasons. Indeed, these television programmes may actually encourage and foster a hitherto unknown interest that one might have never had known existed. AnonyMouse

Kiama	28 Mar 2003
AnonyMouse (Cool name, and welcome to the forum!) has a good point about TV and media bringing people to Tarot... It reminds me of the argument that so many peopel raise when complaining about teens and Witchcraft/Wicca/Paganism... People complain that teens just start looking into Witchcraft etc cuz of TV... And true, most do... But those who really ARE intersted move on from that, and start studying it properly. I am one of those! (Yep, too many faery stories when I was a kid, plus exposure to a few television shows and of course the net, brought me to Paganism!) Those who are only doing it for 'the wrong reasons' usually get bored and move on after a while. These people don't really concern us. Maybe the same is true of Tarot... Maybe those who get into it initially through media and the need to look 'cool' will eventually grow out of it, with some actually seriously studying it. (Fingers crossed!) Again, I was one of the kids that got into Tarot for the wrong reasons initially... It was 'cool', 'weird' and gave me kudos. But forgive me, I was 9 years old: Young and naive! But look where it got me... :D Kiama

AnonyMouse	28 Mar 2003
Thank you for the welcome Kiama. I, too, found myself embroiled in tarot at a young age, and for all the wrong reasons. As an example, stupidly, I tried to use tarot at thirteen to divine whether a day off school was in the offing. I must also add that as a child I was rather 'different' from the rest. I had an interest in the occult; especially the dark side of the occult. Ofcourse, due to common misconceptions, tarot reading was often included in these textbooks. This interest thus developed into a passion for tarot as an art and as a tool for divination and self help. The more people who are drawn to tarot the better; there is so much richness to be brought into one's life through an appreciation and understanding of this most interesting tool.

joya250	28 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I have watched a few go away with that ‘thousand yard’ stare in their eyes. Damaged forever. Brain-box fried…a mass of fused and melted wires, synapses gone. Look around you… It is also responsible behavior to recognize those on the road to fry-dom…and warn them. Yes their feelings will be hurt, and they will say it’s personal that you don’t like them (I’ve heard it all before), but at least you warned them. Sometimes you must use fear – planted deep within them – to get them to try another path. So what is my thesis? Steering others, may often be a part of our spiritual path… Just a thought… hey Umbrae. I appreciate your thoughts. ... just wanted to throw back a few of my own. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't agree either... Maybe the people that you perceive as headed for "fry-dom" are indeed on their "right" path -- perhaps they need to experience this in order to learn a certain lesson. Why would you want to use their fear to change that? that seems a little manipulative to me... I would prefer to use love to express my concern, not resonate with (and perhaps reinforce) another's fear. My belief is that we are all here to learn and experience -- and this can come in a multitude of expressions. I understand what you are saying... but who is to say (from an outsider's perspective) that another is not "ready", not "chosen", etc... and if it is in fact, not the appropriate time for them to delve into this deep... then it will only be a shallow dive before they come up for air. Though maybe I am only saying this because I have never seen a person "damaged forever" from exploring tarot and things esoteric. (further more, do you really think one can be "damaged forever"... by anything?) I think your opinion on this may be a little dramatic -- and I am worried that it may scare people, where there is really nothing to be afraid of. joya (ah ha! I had to edit this to add... I can now see why this thread was started. thank you for that.) ;)

Umbrae	28 Mar 2003
I have never seen a person damaged forever from using marijuana. I have seen folks start using marijuana and then move on to cocaine and/or heroin. Not everybody does, and to state causality would be wrong. But I have seen folks go down the wrong path – lost forever. Lighten up…I’m not comparing Tarot to marijuana. I am comparing that for some folks, A may lead to B which may lead to C. Years back the popular media was filled with stories about ‘how’ Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) involved ‘devil’ worship, and directly ‘caused’ the deaths of many teenagers. Such stories were utter poppycock. I’ve played D&D for over 20 years and look at me… Okay, never mind. I did not intend to imply a causal link between popular television (or cinema) and esoteric studies. Although many folks readily imply a causal link between popular media and firearms deaths. I grew up in an era where every TV show involved the discharge of firearms – as of this writing I have never discharged a weapon at another person. Statistics 101: all murders eat candy and drink milk as children. Although it’s a fact – there is no cause. A does not necessarily cause or lead to B. But to state that in some cases, to steer or lead another towards a safer path may in fact do a disservice… I am reminded of recent world events. Diplomacy. Let’s look at another situation. Why do farmers grow illegal drugs? Because they can make more money than from ordinary crops (corn, wheat, sugar, cotton). So if we see a person on a path…do we use diplomacy? Do we show them that other ‘crops’ are available to grow? Oh yeah…diplomacy never works…what was I thinking….

marlowe	29 Mar 2003
I have just a couple of comments/thoughts on this subject, and Umbrae's post. Firstly, I thought fear was bred through ignorance. I would never manipulate a person with fear to try and somehow educate them. Certainly, I would uncover fear and allow a person to confront the fear, to understand their fear so they may combat it themself. But using fear itself is pretty wretched I believe. I trust when you said using fear you were referring to uncovering it and explaining it, rather than manipulating thru fear. Also, it seems sometimes a person has to go to the mental edge to progress--to throw themselves joyfully into the unknown abyss so they may swim in its chaos before coming out on the other side stronger and wiser (I believe Crowley was a proponent of this). This is something I myself did some years ago, and although at the time it was tortuous and almost unmanageable, I did come out of it stronger and more lucid in thought. Lastly, I would say "not all are meant to learn" is a pretty arrogant and condescending statement--unless a person has suffered actual physical trauma which incapacitates them physically or mentally, anyone can learn...it is the skill of a teacher to stimulate the student. If a teacher cannot teach a certain person, they should accept the blame, not put it onto the student, a facile thing to do at best. That statement really made me feel quite nauseated, so if you meant something other than what you stated, please feel free to clarify and correct me.

HOLMES	29 Mar 2003
diplomacy, it sometimes doesnt' work. yet i feel we pratice every day from the simple how are you today, to not extent it to a person like a family member who is on our nerves is to bring a "what the beep is wrong with you comment" or when we disagree we try to be as nice as possible as to not hurt feelings. it is delicate game. and so the tarot reader who says you going to break up with your boyfriend for he is .. mean phrase there, is what some need to hear. yet others need to hear a diplomatic i am afraid he isn't much good for you at this time due to this and that point out by the tarot. even here on the forum we use diplomacy , as to not hurt other others feelings, but to respect their beliefs while sharings ours is a diplomacy line we all walk. sometiems it doens't work and we cross the line, but in truth if we stick to the diplomacy line of respect and try to create a win win situation for all then we will move on. (moderatiion is the key to me moderatoion is the secret to diplomacy) i agree we should tell a client that the truth, while being a professional we should excerise diplomacy in the sense as to be polite, nice, and friendly when sharing. an exampel of this is jame van pragh. i have never seen a more diplomatic, well hell he is darn right nice guy :O) i like to see him in person. keeping diplomatic in view let us examine what umbrae has shared. (i answered each line of umbrae original post) it is true , we do end up reading in differnt styles, how else could it be for we are individuals. some do, i tried to do that at the beginning reading the little stories together, i ended up reading paragraph building on paragraph to a i hope what is a logical conclusion. aye some use the cards to mediate within, for pathworking. and some have psychic experiences. ( i like to think we all have psychic experiences, althought some of us don't admit it) true i have seen a thread which is in the main website titled why do they come to us and it speaks of ethics. sometimes the questions get answered quickly, i like to think it is more emotional flowing form the heart. then to give the clever impression to others, however i am in idealist :O) and try to see the best in others. when umbrae says too many read for the wrong reasons the only reason i can think that come to mind is the charltan i did see on tv in the movie manitou he was reading for old ladies , and had a costume on. yet was it really the wrong reasons, he gave the ladies hope, and entertainment. some he was seeing once a week, it became a trusted friend (from the impression i remembered). my main thing here in trying to be understanding of him was , as long as he was honest, which he wasn;t ,, but he was more loving then other charltans one see on tv. perhaps it is true, in today age, that these shows attract some to the tarot. i know it is cool to be gothic in certain circles for the young people of the world , and lots of them turn out alright . let tarotbear explain that phrase in more detail,(moves on. ) then thinks. well it seems to me the phrase means don't eat more then you can handle due to your eyes being bigger then your stomach. i think those who are no prepared for higher thought either eolve to the ideal or put it down and come back to it with the notion something is there. and other say IT IS THE DEVIL. just like they said. bah. to the third section. ( then remembers to be diplomatic as he recalls tarot isn't for everyone as everything isn't for everyone. ) aye it is, even now i get asked to do tarot reading for fun. once i went to a party and read like i was pro , scary moment of my life (this was last year) i wans't ready i wonder if i am now though. i set it up as one on one session in a room while the get together of ladies were enjoying their getogether outside in the living room. it was also enjoyable. i dont' know if the readingss i have done were wonderful, but the experience and the impact it had on the client i recall as being memorable. (doesn't want to toot his horn ehh) these terrible types of readings, were due mostly to a lack of energy between us where i felt i had to force the reading, and really drained my psychic eye. it was horrible, no matter amount of humour, or insight could get the person to open up. i finally said i am sorry i can't do it. i said it is jsut an off day for me perhaps you can come back another time. though my cousin i said ,man i can't read you you blocked me and they laugh and said i know . i disagree there is cute stuff/amusing stuff about the tarot, especially when you get that beutiful delicate soul who comes to get read and is open as a book and you can share anything with them. and yes the tarot is pretty :O) i give hints to girlfiends that that their boyfirned were unfaithful (not a gender thing just before i came to the forum and since i alwasy read for females they seem to come to me more around here ) ((i like to share that it was usally two pronged swords as the tarot pointed me to guys they liked at that time as well and when i mentioned it their eyes went big and i said gee whiz this is fun. )) but i dont' say dark parking lots are your doom. i do point out i am getting the impression to watch out for this and that as this may happend i consider forwarned forarmed. hmm i hope i am a moral responsible reader. don't read for people who are not ready,, don't reveal too much or it could destroy them is what i am getting when i read this phrase. once again. expereince is the key to dealing with this matter, and before you have experience (it will come after all that is what experience is) you have your inuition and higher self to help you through.

HOLMES	29 Mar 2003
some tarot readers have learned by fire, and their process is there and approiate for their soul levels and lessons they choose to learned. sometimes let say for example five years a person who puts away his tarot may seemed damage forever but then some day would come back to it if not this life time then maybe the next, or perhaps get attracted to soemthing more their style like the iching, or runes. i dont think this speaks of the tarot reader but more of the clients who come for readings and can get damage by a ethicless, charltan type of reader. *looks around me and see fellow members of the forum.* i never heard of it being personal for myself as a reader but one person who was a freind i see now and then. they only come for me for tarot readings, and so they said you can read me like a book but sometimes i think you secretly telling me what you want tell me, and i said that is how the tarot came out. that being said that is why i prefer to read for strangers for i dont' know much about them. there is something magical about that first tarot reading for someone. it is responsible to help people on their paths, as far as we can. still it is their patha nd so we have to let them live them. such is detachment of any helper on the path. to use fear is old school, church style, makes me think of the oppression side of the hierophant who has some english numerological links to the devil (16, 6-1 =5) there are those who have fear of the tarot when they first come for a reading and when we blow them away with the tarot reading, their fear might give extra power, or their beliefs to the tarot reading and let it become a secret or not so secret blue print of their lives. I think one should leave the client empowered as much as possible. and i alwasy reminds those in real life when i do readings, hey they are just card who show you possiblities the future doens't have to happend all that matters is how you act now. or something to that effect. it is true here, the tarot path isn't for everyone, for those of us who get past the first level of fear, coolness, and other prejudices and get to know the tarot personally we, begin to recognize it. (as we start to deal with the prejudices of others at the beginning, an example of this, fellow peers my age coming up to me in my teen years asking the most familar question "when will i die " i simply said " i don't answer that for it might prejudice you and then you might go commit suicde or say hell with it i give up on my life and become an acholic and they simply laughed and said oh lord" and the other question is "will i have a baby " i simply said no i won't answer that for what if i am wrong and you never have a baby and you blame me and the tarot forever (this was my answers until i came to the forum, accordingly i still don't answer these questions on birth or death) i feel like the phrase should be changed to many are called, few answer, as the rest will answer in their own time. eheh. …and like Starr the Seeker often says, “Not all, are meant to learn.” in truth , we are all meant to learn, but we all do it in our own way on our own path accordingly to our soul levels. so at this time the tarot is not meant for some , but sometimes in their future lives or perhaps event their past lives they did or will have a run in with the tarot and realize there is something more then just mathemical possiblities (some use these to explain what goes on with the tarot combined with expert reading people which works for them, yet i never agreed with those sciencfitic theory) you danced your way through many subjects hard to say , but it has to do with the tarot and its possibilities i think eheh. Steering others, may often be a part of our spiritual path… aye steering others is part of the tarot reader who reads for others, yet the old school opression of the hierophant isn't the key but the spiritual enlightening teaching and mirth. (after all people his hierophant has a clown nose) i don't think that umbrae is saying that we must fear to help others move on, but cautions that others may use it to do so, and is that right . many thoughts :O) eheh (edite to add some that miss in the pasting as i did half of this last night and the other half this morning) there i added it :O) edite to add when i added in the stuff i missed in the original post, it became to long so i had to split it up lol eheh

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
Well, as long as we have gotten this deep into the discussion, lets push it a little further. Lets try to understand what "fry-dom" might really be... So we can smell burning wires... (lol, a funny image comes to mind... from the movie the Mask -- what the guys in the garage looked like after Jim Carrey whirled through -- singed hair, face all black, dazed beyond recovery...) and retroversed eye-balls.... but what exactly are we talking about? Irrecoverable mental breakdown? Irremediable loss of the reality principle? That is what I first think of, along with the expression "scared out of one's wits" ... Are "wits" something that we can be "scared out of"? -- I have a memory of a movie shown to me in Highschool, (in a previous century), presumably about insanity... in the movie a worker is lowered on ropes deep into a well to check out what is that strange problem at the bottom. Horrible screams are heard. When the man is finally returned to the surface, his hair has gone white from fear, and he has lost his wits forever. He is never able to speak again to say what he saw.... Writing this, first of all, I am stunned to think such a thing was shown without explanation to sensitive children!!! LOL, but they also made us watch Lord of the Flies (children murdering eachother), the Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge ( a hanging), and the Lottery (a stoning) as early as 5th grade .. must have been one of the only films available for schools in the 60's/ early 70's... No one ever helped us interpret these gruesome films... it is only now in writing this memory, it occurs to me, the well incident must have been intended as symbolic!! I think it was intened to convey a Dante-like descent into the underworld, albeit one from which the person was never able to return. Umbrae reminds us that the dangers of opening doors to psychic phenomenon carry grave risks and are not to be undertaken (no pun intended) lightly, or frivolously. ... I think the important thing is to keep grounded in reality. In Julia Cameron' s other Book, The Vein of Gold, she insists on daily half hour walks... This to keep one grounded, while the exploration of the inner realm proceeds.... And if one is clearly having trouble getting grounded in reality, than occult pursuits ought to wait...

Aoife	29 Mar 2003
I fear that my words may send some to worship at the porcelain...... You see, I feel that the use of fear has become much maligned - that in a quest to perceive all as equal, the baby has got thrown out with the bathwater. It's my view that there is an honourable tradition of instilling fear in the naive, the immature - and it's my belief that such traditions were born of true wisdom and care for the uninitiated. What is the story of Bluebeard if not a terifying tale designed to warn the naive of the dangers of the predator within. The story of the Red Shoes tells of the dangers of entrapment, of poisoned bait. Fear can serve a useful purpose. Until a person has gained the level of maturity to enable them to understand more fully, it delivers a powerful warning. So, for example, I had no problem striking fear into the heart of my children that if they poked objects into the electricty socket, the electric monster would bite their hand so hard, it might hurt forever. The fear I instilled was specific, designed to serve a specific purpose. It's my opinion that some who come to this site are patently struggling with matters far beyond their ability to comprehend. That may well change given time [although it may not - it is no kindness to pretend that there are not some vulnerable personalities] - but in the meantime I believe they may be exposed to very real dangers that may have unpleasant repercussions for themselves and others. I cannot, much as I might wish to, pretend that I have no responsibility to caution the immature and vulnerable when I believe they are straying into dangerous territory. And if wise words and supportive advice don't do it, maybe fear is the next kindest mechanism.

marlowe	29 Mar 2003
I'm afraid I disagree vehemently with using fear as a tool. As I said before, fear is a consequence of ignorance, and fear has given birth to such things as racism, homophobia, and marginalising people who do not conform to mainstream "thought". I do not believe fear is ever acceptable to use - it is tantamount to bullying; pushing your will onto that of another - if you wish to be so bold as to ever guide or teach another, then manipulating through fear should never be part of the repertoire. Instead, use understanding and knowledge to liquidise fear - explain it away, reason it out of existence--the fear of the unknown has caused many a person to lapse into cowardice and timidity. Truth and Open Mindedness are the masters of fear. Fear is the road to ignorance and Narrow Mindedness. That's what I believe at this time.

HOLMES	29 Mar 2003
one should disagree with using fear as a tool. for it is fear that hold us back, from exploring our darker selves,our true selves. (example what will i find ?) fear from sharing, fear from making our personal statements. (will they be judged ?) the old teaching way of using power and fear to get one to learn is i hope over in today age. not only that but as yoda says fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate to the dark side. recall the lucifer(the angel side) in some of the teachings were sent to earth to help us make us stronger. and so fear can make us stronger, in the case of like rocky says he used his fear to fight in the ring to keep himself getting hurt. however that is in an attack attack situation. and the way of expanding ourselves into the light is not through fear and power but through love and understanding as marlowe says. the secret message is why has it been that makes the devil card come out, why couldnt' we deal with it before the devil card ? in the secrets of temperance for example or the teachings of the heirophant, and or the lessons of strenght. or even the experience of the hanged man ? they were to prepare us for facing our own fears, our own attachements that hold us back so we can face the tower. by examing our fears we face our own foundations of tower and we must shake it to get rid of the weak part in order to rebuild it the new way we have learned by facing our fears. why is the king and queen over thrown in the tower card ? it is the our own male and queen ego selves being over thrown. (or in story telling fashion it is the usper king and queen being over thrown as fear of them is gone, and so we are trying to right the wrongs who knows ). the devil card prepares us for the lighting strike of the heavens that knock down the tower to begin with , to face the weak beliefs, and to question everything. the truth is, fear must be faced in order to move on, or it hangs around us blocking us creating heavy chain wieghing us down from walking on the path. edited to take out the paragraph i was working it wasn't supposed to be quoted.

RedWood	29 Mar 2003
Fear is also good..as a warning system...You need fear to survive.

Aoife	29 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood Fear is also good..as a warning system...You need fear to survive. Redwood, I couldn't agree with you more. Fear, along with anger, has come to be greatly misunderstood, in my opinion. It's my view that modern life has caused great disruption to our healthy fear mechanism - our flight/fight instincts are sometimes misplaced, our instinctual awareness that all is not as it seems is often confused. Anyone who has ever worked with sexually abused children knows that one of the primary aims is to help them re-set their fear mechanism. Needless to say, most of them have lived a life characterised by fear and lies. They need to learn the value of fear, to hone the instinct so that it serves to alert them, to protect them from further harm. It would be a great disservice to suggest to these children that they should not recognise and welcome the fact that they feel fear. It is their best chance for survival. In understanding fear comes strength, in my view. And to attribute the concept of fear with solely negative connotations reduces the likelihood of helping people to use this invaluable inner tool. It's my suspicion that the fear of fear has driven people away from an honest appraisal. Time, I would suggest, to strip away the hype and look fear in the face. Our ancestors knew this and devised their stories and folklore to teach such wisdom.

marlowe	29 Mar 2003
a person who is fearful is quite natural. Having a fear means a person can face that fear and become empowered thru their courage. Fear is a natural phenomenon. It is when a person uses fear as a manipulator that I begin to have doubts to their ability/mental makeup. If a "teacher" has to resort to using fear, then they should reconsider whether or not they are making a valid contribution to the education of another. They are doing their pupil a disservice. Likewise, if a teacher finds difficulty in teaching a certain person, then it is not a case of "only some can learn", but "only some can teach."

Umbrae	29 Mar 2003
Fear, was mentioned in one sentence. It was ancillary to the thesis. In other systems of study (let’s take music as an example), some students are sent away – they lack the ‘whatever’ it takes to study under some teachers. It’s not a matter of skill, but a matter of soul. Not everyone can play like Arthur Rubenstien. Practice will not replace a lacking. A good teacher knows this, and the student is sent away. In the field of esoteric studies, do we do a service to encourage all? If fear is used as a tool, motive and intent is to be examined, as opposed to dismissing the issue out of hand. What we are truly discussing is steering some away from the ‘fire’…ultimately it’s about saving lives. If I have to use fear to save the life of another…

scheherazade	29 Mar 2003
Quote: I have watched a few go away with that ‘thousand yard’ stare in their eyes. Damaged forever. Brain-box fried…a mass of fused and melted wires, synapses gone. Sometimes you must use fear – planted deep within them – to get them to try another path. What is meant by this, exactly? What happens to people who come to Tarot for the wrong reasons? It's been implied to me by fellow members that the reason that I'm studying Tarot now is because of my current conflict with my cradle-faith, Catholicism. I am searching for something else... does that really mean I've begun Tarot for the wrong reasons? I'm new to all of this, no doubt. It makes me feel unsure and lost to think that because I was lost in the first place, I'm not supposed to be meddling with the only medium of relatable truth that I've ever found. Tarot makes me overwhelmed, I tell you. I've read, and I've found that I was right - Tarot is not bull**** like they say - it's not, at all. But even though I know this, I still have no understanding of how Tarot operates. And I get the feeling that I'm dealing with greater things than I should. But I'm seventeen. Give me the name of any teenager who knows how to close the doors that they open. Listen - I can't stand not opening doors... how else can I know - anything? What am I trying to say...? I'm not really sure, it's just that I feel broken by what Umbrae has said. Few are chosen. Few are chosen, but if I'm not, what is left for me? I'm tired of looking - I've found this. Because of the things I can see in life, I can read Tarot. What does that mean, if I'm not meant to read? What weakness must there be in me, if such a thing is true?

jmd	29 Mar 2003
My apologies if what I write does not take into account everything that's been said before - I haven't read the whole thread carefully, but rather scanned through (I usually do take the time before making a response...) Firstly, on the title of this thread. I agree that not all may achieve the similar level that some can reach. On the other hand, though not all may reach the sublimity achieved by some in their opening themselves to the music playing through their very being. However, each and every one, if at all possible, would benefit from being exposed and opened to the sublimity of music. Similarly, the exposure - at the apropriate time (timing is, as ever, so important) - to esoteric depth would only benefit. Is anger or fear important? or is it, rather, being exposed to certain situations which some - or maybe even most - would respond in such ways, which is important? Certain events, films, thoughts, chemicals, etc, may certainly be unhealthy, and more so for some than others - but if what is presented is wholesome, healthy and appropriate, than the door can only open, for it is, for such individual, already ajar!

coldsuns	30 Mar 2003
When i first saw(only 5yrs) a movie on TV about witches. They cast spells, turn human to frogs, fly up the sky with brooms, cook different animals to get a magical potion. I was amazed by those witches. Then i read about witches on fairytales. More amazing, all the villages are scare of them. I thought it will be fun, at the time i was too childish to know the consequences. I wanted to try it and become one. Then at the age of 11yrs, i watched a show of Ouija Board. It somehow related to witchcrafts. I started playing Ouija Board to "begin" my witchcrafts knowledge. I'm actually walking the wrong path. I know nothing about witchcrafts just walking blindy. I watched the show, "Charmed". It was great to fight against demon,change in size and teleport. I started to get more in it. I tried to get spells regardless of white or black. I even tried voodoo dolls. I'm too naive. I didnt know whats karma or whats good and bad. I almost get into the "trap". Then my teacher "pull" me up and "saved" me. Though my teacher still against what i'm doing now. And sometimes what she said cant be right but is as good as a reminded. After coming to this forum, i know more about witchcrafts and Tarot Decks. What it's about. Maybe now i'm playing Tarot Deck is with negative and positive reasons. However, this is something i'm interested in and want to know more about. With the negative reasons since 5yrs till now. It will become great helps in other things. I learnt that think thrice before doing something and not to follow blindly. Understand it well before doing it.

Silverlotus	30 Mar 2003
I have several different thoughts about this thread, and I'm not sure I can express then all properly, but I will try. First, I believe there are those who find tarot and never move beyond the fortune-telling stage. They dabble with it, help friends decided whether to date person A or person B, etc. Do they need to be warned away? I don't think so. They aren't opening any doors, in my opinion. They are playing with their new toy. Perhaps one day they will move beyond and truly study the esoteric aspects of Tarot, or maybe they won't. Then there are those who try to move into the esoteric realms, but maybe don't understand or can't handle the idea. Do they need to be warned away? Maybe. But I believe they would be most helped by a teacher how could help then sort out what they need to learn, and help them from becoming overwhelmed. How many of us working on our own are currently studying three or more decks? So many decks, not enough time! I will certainly put myself in this group. I'm impatient, and I want to learn everything. In the process I am becoming confused by trying to work with to many systems at once. Recognizing this and figuring out just how far I can go is part of my learning process. I'm not headed for "fry-dom", I'm headed for another door, and better understand of myself. But is that true of everyone on this path? I'm not so sure. There are also those that tarot comes easily too. The symbolism becomes as well known to them as their mother tongue. To many of us they seem like the chosen. Should they be warned? Maybe. In many fields the ones that burn out the fastest are those who seemed to be having the easiest time understanding and working with the material. Of course, this isn't always true. Personally, I'm glad to be one of the ones that has to work hard at understanding tarot and it's symbolism. Hard work makes the knowledge stick. The lessons are hard learned, and they stay with you for the rest of your life. But it is a thin line between dabblers, studiers, and those that just don't seem to get it at all.

zorya	30 Mar 2003
......but there are also those who come to it, looking for it to solve their problems for them. replacing what they really need with tarot or other metaphysical studies. ... or they use it as a way to hide from reality.

marlowe	30 Mar 2003
For me, the tarot is not about fortune telling; for me, it is a medium of personal spiritual enlightenment-a qaballistic network of paths and associations to be studied assiduously and methodically, and the revelations and pathworks noted down in journals to be further studied and meditated upon. And to those who say "so-and-so cannot possibly attain this level or that level" I say "get off the podium of pomp and concentrate on yourself rather than make statements about others." Any person, as I said before, who is not mentally incapacitated, is able to reach any level of spiritual being. It takes patience, concentration, and dedication. If you find you cannot reach a certain level, say Dhyana in yoga, then it is not a time to be disheartened or susceptible to self-doubt. It is a time for resolve! It is a time to double your efforts, to consult your diary/journal. Methodical patience is called for. Don't listen to the negative ones who say only a few people could possibly reached Samadhi--these are mere elitists, who with that attitude, will probably end up deceived themselves, and end their days spiritual dwarves. Have heart!

miranda	30 Mar 2003
for those same reasons u mentioned all the negative reasons.. i wanted something mystical to give me answers in a love situation why do i stay with the tarot? beacuse they have opened up so many beautiful doors for me they were the key that helped me find god i still have soo far, so far to go that at times its overwelming & i cry but after deciding to learn what the tarot really means i have come so far .... its like im climbing a mountain & I sometimes look back at how far i have come & am amazed how different my thinking is now.. but it can be so hard to put that into action..

Alex	30 Mar 2003
insightfull or brilliant about such conclusion, for people in academe have been doing it since academe has existed. The problem is, unless there is some higher organization that enables you sto "steer others" or "send them to another path" you will have to put up with the ones you don't think are suited for the job. Scare them away? I'm sure the ones that can be "scared away" should be sent off the road just because they can be scared away. Or else, join the American Association of Tarot Readers (or whatever it is called, no one cares about it) and make sure you have the congress aproving on a law that forbides anyone to read unless they are properly licensed by that association. Once again, academe has been doing it for ages. Nothing so unusuall about it. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Sometimes you must use fear – planted deep within them – to get them to try another path. ... So what is my thesis? Steering others, may often be a part of our spiritual path… Just a thought… :smoker:

miranda	30 Mar 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Umbrae [b]I have never seen a person damaged forever from using marijuana. I have seen folks start using marijuana and then move on to cocaine and/or heroin. Not everybody does, and to state causality would be wrong. But I have seen folks go down the wrong path – lost forever. Lighten up…I’m not comparing Tarot to marijuana. I am comparing that for some folks, A may lead to B which may lead to C. hehe who said anything about mary jane umbrae? huh huh?? *nudge nudge*

Alex	31 Mar 2003
(for most part) but their genetic makeup which makes them propense to substance abuse to begin with. The ones who go "from Marijuana" to "cocaine" have obviously not found the right drug for themselves yet. Compulsive folks can damage themselves with marijuana, yes, or with cocaine, Tarot, gambling, or Jesus Christ. There are tons of people damaged forever by having "found Jesus". Look into their eyes, it has a depht and consistency that very much resembles the eyes of Marijuana users. Alex. [quote]Originally posted by miranda [b] Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I have never seen a person damaged forever from using marijuana. I have seen folks start using marijuana and then move on to cocaine and/or heroin. Not everybody does, and to state causality would be wrong.

Diana	31 Mar 2003
I have thought and thought and thought on this thread since it started up. And then I remembered that Alain Brêthes wrote about this subject in his book "L'Interprétation des Arcanes Mineurs, des nombres et des quatre éléments". So I hunted in his book and I translate what he says, which I remember really made me think at the time I first read it: (my translation - not official). "As long as we know how to stay centered and balanced, without losing ourselves in the meanders of illusion; if we show clear signs of discernment and logic, by purposely evacuating from our spirit any delirium due to wild mysticism, to an imagination overtaken by fantasy, even the most etheric, and to a narcissic ego, then we are able to conceive, to our great benefit, all the analogies between the microcosm and the macrocosm. If we do not satisfy the above conditions, it is wise not to practice any discipline such as Tarot, Numerology or Psychology, for we leave the door wide open to aberrations and confusion. I allow myself to warn you of this, because the universe of Tarot, as well as its related disciplines, provides, to those susceptible to be fooled by the veils of illusion, arguments to densify even further the texture of their surrounding tissues. By surrounding tissues, I refer to the three vehicles used by the Soul. In other words the triple inferior personality, constituted by: the physical/etheric body, the emotional body and the mental body."

DollChica	31 Mar 2003
Thank you Diana for articulating (after a fashion) exactly what I wanted to say.

Logiatrix	01 Apr 2003
having only my personal experience as one who has only been "called"... who determines "the wrong reasons" for using tarot? would that have been my reasons for learning the cards? i had about a gazillion questions, and i looked forward to the power i thought i would have if i could just learn to read tarot. what determines "fry-dom"? was that what i had when i amassed 120 tarot decks in search of my answers? if one deck didn't give me "good" readings, i just pulled out a different deck. who would tell me i was on the "wrong path"? i developed wonderful associations here on aecclectic and i'm sure there were plenty of times where i had "newbie" written all over my forehead, but all i was given was support (and lots of patience). do i dare look to see if i'm on the "right path" now? i finally know how to read tarot cards, and i got rid of all the extra decks. ;) most importantly, somewhere along the journey of my studies, i forgot those gazillion questions. that is what tarot has taught me. i don't think i would have been privileged the lesson, though, if someone had stepped in and told me i was on "the wrong path." :)

Astraea	01 Apr 2003
I think that the title and idea behind this thread might reflect the current paradigm shift between the Age of Aquarius ("Many are called") and the Piscean Age ("few are chosen"). The Age of Pisces is associated with priesthoods, hierarchies, mystery schools, arcane societies and revered teachers, whereas the Aquarian Age is touted as the era in which all of humanity can share equally in the blessings and banes of once-secret lore. While I do not think that the intent of the thread was to promote elitism, the fact that it was interpreted in that light by many readers is an indication that our thoughts about -- and therefore our experiences of -- esoteric practices are changing, as those practices become more available to greater numbers of people.

Umbrae	02 Apr 2003
I had no idea where this would head when I first posted. It’s nice to see folks think… I’d like to ramble for a bit – eventually clarify…in a meandering manner. I fired my first firearm at the age of four, “Just like the cowboys, Daddy!” Back then, darn near every television show featured the discharge of firearms. There were no lobbying groups suing for safer television or movies back in the 50’s…Roy Rogers never shot anybody though, with those pearl handled nickel plated six-shooters, but he’d shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand. Later in the mid sixties they began producing WWII shows…they featured automatic weapons fire. It’s amazing any of us made it to adult-hood, we were not protected. Where I went to High School, we had football, baseball, basketball, track and field, and a Rifle Team. Last summer I attended my 30 year High School reunion. There were fellow graduates who did not realize that there was an indoor rifle range in the basement of the school. Both my sister and I would head off to school three days a week with a rifle, shooting jacket and glove, sling, and live ammunition. I don’t think you’d even get close to the school nowadays… Back then we were taught, and we learned, that all of our actions had and have consequences. We were taught, and learned, that firearms are nothing more than tools. In Atlanta Georgia in 1999, Mark Burton brought about the wrongful and illegal death of his wife and children with a standard carpenter’s hammer. The next day he shot a dozen or so people (2 of which I knew) and killed nine of them. The Gun-Control people were ‘up in arms’. The gun was the problem. But not the hammer. Nowadays, they have confused the tool, with the intent. Some believe that by removing the tools, you cleanse society of the intent. Some believe that violence in television and video game causes intent…if that was true, everybody who watched television in the fifties and sixties would be a raving killer. As I have said before, 100% of all murderers, as children, ate candy and drank milk. Seems that you my friend are in a high risk category. But to imply cause is dangerous. What does this have to do with Tarot? Stick with me a bit… I was raised with the tools, but not the intent. I have an extensive weapons collection (Firearms outnumber Tarot decks), and find shooting at paper targets relaxing. There is a meditative discipline involved…breathing…concentration… I have never entered a workplace, or a school, or a pub, with a weapon and the intent to do injury to another. I have never shot, nor shot at, another human. I was taught and I learned that there are consequences to all of our actions. The firearm was and remains simply a tool, not a thing to be worshiped. It is not used to solve life’s problems, it is not used to provide solace when feelings are hurt. It is not used to replace human companionship, it does not answer every question, they are not taken down and ‘played with’ every day. They are recognized as tools. There are people who we would not want to have these tools. Quote: Originally posted by Kiama … specifically about Tarot, and how some come to it for the wrong reasons… Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray There do need to be ethics involved in the reader, we have responsibility to ourselves and to the ones we read for. Beginners don't often think this through at the start. Quote: Originally posted by AnonyMouse I have an interesting observation, noted in many books re. mysticism, occultism, and tarot; Those prone to psychological disorders, do not fare well with regards to tarot. I am not stating this of all people with psychological disorders, but of a wide majority 'in my experience'. Quote: Originally posted by zorya ......but there are also those who come to it, looking for it to solve their problems for them. Replacing what they really need with tarot or other metaphysical studies. ... or they use it as a way to hide from reality. Indeed the original post was not about elitism, nor was it about ‘fear’ (which was used in a rhetorical sense, instead of the term ‘healthy respect’). Nor should the intent have been misconstrued as a leader/teacher – follower/student, an us vs. them approach. It is popular, among academics of today to confuse tools with intent. Or to blame the availability of tools as the causality of intent. Both fly harshly in the face of the statistics they love to quote. The availability of matches, does not cause arson. The availability of Tarot, does not cause mental distress. The Tarot, like firearms, is nothing more than a tool. And indeed, both can be used for spiritual exploration (just like toothpicks). There are persons who take up Tarot to re-enforce denial…as an item of worship, as a method to escape reality, for all the wrong reasons… Reread that last sentence and replace the word Tarot with ‘firearms’. Unsettling isn’t it. “But you can’t kill people with Tarot!” you cry! Wanna bet? Hunt down a copy of “Cards as Weapons” by Ricky Jay…or how about the new reader with no ethics, “Your husband is having an affair…” Stick around long enough and you will have folks come to you after being read to by another – “Are you sure I don’t have cancer? The other reader told me I have cancer and will die in four months…” And then you have the new folks that come to Tarot for all the wrong reasons, and intentions…who seek the impure things. You would steer them away from firearms… Or would that act be elitist… …just a thought. Of course I realize that a few may condemn both my use, and appreciation of tools, and misconstrue my spiritual path. This post is intended to create thought – and propose opinions…nothing more, nothing less.

Alex	02 Apr 2003
professionals in ANY profession. In order to assure that some professional standards are maintained, some professionals have created associations, which are institutions that regulate their professions. Professional standards cannot be enforced by single individuals alone. The reason? How do you know that YOU are not the one who is violating ethical or professional standards of your particular field? Professional regulation is the work of a group, not isolated individuals. There is a handful of maniacs, narcissistic personalities and psychopaths who consistently violate the code of ethics of their professions, but who are only capable of seing where OTHERS violate such ethics. I am sorry to say that but if we are going to take this path and defend professional standards for Tarot readers, then the right way to do it is to enforce associations that can control the practice of the profession. Groups of people, not isolated individuals. Alex.

magpie9	03 Apr 2003
I stand for common sense. If I saw a child playing with a gun, I would get it away from him any way I could that would keep it from being fired. Would I assume the gun was loaded? Yes. Would I be right? Maybe. If I was wrong,and the gun was not loaded, would I apologize? Not if it was a real gun. Guns are not toys, they are tools and should be handled with restraint and respect. Loaded or not. If I saw a newbie with a deck would I take it away from him? Would I assume that the deck was loaded? No. Would I be aware that it might be? Sure. If I believed it was a danger would I feel it was my job to disarm the babe? Yes. Just as it is my job to start CPR at an accident scene. Because I'm there. Because I can. Because I trust my own judgement. Do I need a profesional association to tell me to do any of this? No. Just common sense. Some people are not ready to be readers, for a lot of reasons.You don't have to be god or thier teacher or egocentric to spot them. Just observant, and personally ethical. Lack of ethics and/or true obsession can do huge amounts of damage to self or others. Umbrae is an ethical reader, and he tells it straight and with kindness.That sounds easier to do than it is.Those that are not ready yet sometimes need to be discouraged. He is also a teacher. Most of us are teachers to one another...and students, too.Those that are not ready yet sometimes need to be discouraged.Or disarmed. We are the agents of each others Karma. And we are responsible for useing common sense.

jema	03 Apr 2003
to disarm someone of a tarotdeck is something i would never ever do. it would be not only illegal but also very elitist of me, to assume i know better then the other person. would you also "disarm" a Jehovas Witness of her magazines and books? they can cause a lot of damage with them. why not take them away? we can lift all bibles from all the fundamentalists too. and i could "disarm" all gardeners of pesticides. cause i know a lot better then they do about how wrong and dangerous they are. i see a lot of mystic mumbo jumbo in this thread for sure. "fried brains, empty stares... tarot is dangerous..." we already established that tarot is only a tool and that as such it is quite harmless too (although i once did get a papercut from the tapestry tarot) "do not open doors you can't close" but those doors need no tarotdecks. they are opened by free will and we can never ever remove that from someone. we all have to make our own mistakes. i say: go ahead - open as many doors as it pleases you. do anyone here believe that if someone "opens a door" by using the tarot he will unleash demons or what? that he will make other go out and kill themselves? or others? mumbo jumbo. so if i were to say that oh nooo, this thread made me so upset i have to kill myself and i will take my mother with me. then that would be - hmmm. umbraes fault? or the combined fault of anyone who replied to the thread? the fault of the tarot decks i own? the little nasty demons that someone thinks lives in my cards? (oh i bet my aunt would think that though) sure a reader has a responsibility (which is why we write down a code of ethics) but to claim some kind of better judgment then others and actually discourage people from a really good tool that is mumbo jumbo. and no doubt i will get flamed to hell for this comment. *ducking*

vijeno	03 Apr 2003
Sorry, I think I destroyed the quote-tags. Originally posted by magpie9 I stand for common sense. If I saw a child playing with a gun, I ... If I saw a newbie with a deck would I take it away from him? ... If I believed it was a danger would I feel it was my job to disarm the babe? A grown up newbie is not a child. Period. Common sense. "babe" is a telling word, here, by the way. Some people are not ready to be readers, for a lot of reasons.You don't have to be god or thier teacher or egocentric to spot them. Just observant, and personally ethical. Lack of ethics and/or true obsession can do huge amounts of damage to self or others. I agree with the first sentence. But I don't think it's my job to judge. Hmm.... I actually had a similar scenario recently. A newbie (in a totally different area) wanted to jump to being a professional within... well as fast as possible. I simply told the person of .) MY personal experiences .) potential risks of going too fast .) how she could start to learn .) people I knew could give her good lessons .) books I'd read and found insightful .) websites to visit .) financial ascpects she'd not been aware of I even offered her to introduce her to a few people I know, so she could learn more and move on. Hm. Did she stop? I don't know. Did I use fear? Nope. Did I take something off her? No. Did she slow down to a - in my opinion - more healthy speed? Yes, I think so. So... it seems I achieved my goal. But what if she doesn't take my all-omniscientificational advice? Her business. If I see it, I'll confront her with my opinion. If I see other people involved, I might warn them. But in the end, it's HER responsibility. She's an adult, for goddess' sake! Umbrae is an ethical reader, and he tells it straight and with kindness.That sounds easier to do than it is.Those that are not ready yet sometimes need to be discouraged. Discouraged, no. Encouraged to be patient, rather. Once again: Never using fear, intimidation, manipulation, or any such. Yes, it's time-consuming to explain over and over again why the Tarot isn't only a toy. It's far far more eshausting than just ripping people off their decks or - assuming you are good at it - scaring them away. But it's the way of the good teacher. Fear isn't. vijeno

Icarus	03 Apr 2003
Forgive me if i'm reading this wrong. Are the tarot cards being compared to guns, in terms of damage they can do? I'm from England, here we percieve the USA's gun policy to be very strange.....and stupid! Here our police don't carry guns as routine. I've only seen a police person with a gun at an airport once. Thats the only time i've ever seen a gun. The trouble I have with guns in a society, is that unlike a hammer, you can shoot some-one from a distance, kill in a less personal manner. Kill on a whim. To kill someone with a hammer, I would imagine takes a lot more intent. Yes guns are tools. In themselves they are not dangerous. Add a hand to a gun and they become dangerous tools. They can really kill people, and do, hundreds of thousands of time every year. I must cry "you can’t kill people with Tarot"!!!!!!! william

Kiama	03 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jema i say: go ahead - open as many doors as it pleases you. do anyone here believe that if someone "opens a door" by using the tarot he will unleash demons or what? that he will make other go out and kill themselves? or others? mumbo jumbo. Hi Jema, Just to point out that I don't think we are referring to the fact that Tarot itself can cause demons etc, but the fact that the use of Tarot, when paired with somebody who is psychologically/emotionally damaged, could lead them to further damage. We have seen people recently who have had this happen to them through the use of Tarot. They use Tarot to hide from reality, or they use Tarot to bully others, scare others, etc. People seem to have got mixed up with what Umbrae's saying here... He's not saying 'physically take their Tarot deck away'. He's saying, as Vijeno said he would do, simply try to discourage them. If you were a psychotherapist and a patient came to you with serious psychological disorders, which seem to have gotten worse through the use of Tarot (NOT Tarot's fault you understand, but the state of the person using it), would you tell them to happily carry on using Tarot? I would not. I would try to discourage them from the use of it. Many say NO! Tarot is a spiritual tool which can benefit lives. I agree, but it is only this kind of tool if the person uses it as such. Not everybody uses it as such however so in a case such as this, I would not hesitate to try and discourage them. This is not about elitism or judging ourselves to be ethically better than others. It is about noticing when somebody is in trouble (Even if they don't see it themselves) and trying to get them out of trouble. I don't care if it 'messes with their free will': I don't subscribe to that ethical code when it comes to things like this. If I see a person who has just slashed their wrists and is slowly bleeding to death, I will grab as many cloths and bandages as I can find and stop the flow of blood, call an ambulance, and get them to hospital. Why? I don't know. Many would say because I feel my choce of lifestyle (eg. to stay alive) is ethically better than somebody elses. But its not about ethics, it is about what I judge to be a better choice, and peopel can call me a judgemental nasty person if they wish... But if your son, or if your best friend had just taken a cocktail of pills, a bottle of vodka, and then slashed his wrists, would you let them die out of concern for their free will and choice? If I saw my best friend's pschological disorder worsened through an action or choice of theirs, whether it be slashing wrists, playing with guns, D&D or Tarot (Not implying any link between any of teh above and psychological disorders) I would either take away the cause, or discourage use of the tool. I'm not attacking anybody here, and please don't feel that I am. This is an interesting discussion, but I feel Umbrae's otiginal post was sadly misconstrued... Blessings, Kiama

Alex	03 Apr 2003
persons with psychological disorders may find efficient ways to harm themselves, and others, with the Tarot; but discouradging the use of the tool may only cause them to find something else to harm themselves, and others. I'm certain I would discourage an alchooholic friend from drinking, even though I personally think that drinking is not harmfull per se. What you say makes sense. It makes so much sense that it did not deserve to be said. On a personal level, trying to help a friend who's in trouble, should be fine. However, Umbrae's post, for what I have understood of it, goes a bit further as to discourage people who are perceived to be incompetent to use the Tarot, and/or violate some "common sense" code of ethics. Walking to someone who's told somebody else "your husband is having an affair" and saying "I don't think you should use these cards" is in my oppinion, innappropriate. Violations of professional ethical standards have to be judged by larger groups of people, for the reasons I have already pointed. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Kiama If I saw my best friend's pschological disorder worsened through an action or choice of theirs, whether it be slashing wrists, playing with guns, D&D or Tarot (Not implying any link between any of teh above and psychological disorders) I would either take away the cause, or discourage use of the tool.

Kiama	03 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex Violations of professional ethical standards have to be judged by larger groups of people, for the reasons I have already pointed. Alex. And what if the opinions of the larger group fit the opinion of the individual (In this case Umbrae)? I don't see a difference here. And again, I don't think this thread originally started with people who 'violate professional ethical standards' but with people who are psychologically harmed/mentally/emotionally harmed by their use of cards. Kiama

Icarus	03 Apr 2003
____________________________________ "persons with psychological disorders may find efficient ways to harm themselves, and others, with the Tarot; but discouradging the use of the tool may only cause them to find something else to harm themselves, and others." ____________________________________ Alex, I think this is a point, very well made. Warning people to lay off the tarot is tantamount to telling them to run away from difficulties. People learn from making mistakes, burning there fingers. When someone starts to 'protect' people from life experiance, is it a good thing? Who gains? william

Kiama	03 Apr 2003
Would it then be wrong to perform the Heimlich maneuvre on somebody who is choking? After all, we can't take away that life experience from then, can we? I don't think that warning people off Tarot is tantamount to running away from their difficulties. Many use the Tarot to do just that in fact, so warning them off Tarot will effectively help them face their difficulties. Kiama

Icarus	03 Apr 2003
______________________________________________ Would it then be wrong to perform the Heimlich maneuvre on somebody who is choking? After all, we can't take away that life experience from then, can we? ______________________________________________ Do you choke from tarot? I would guess if someone swallowed a deck, and started to choke.....then it would be good to remove the deck:-):-) william

zorya	03 Apr 2003
as this thread was veering way off course and as several posts were breaking the posting guidelines by personally insulting other members, i have deleted the last portion of this thread. i am now closing it.

The “Many are called, few are chosen” thread was originally posted on 27 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.