Strength vs. Justice (positioning)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Oct 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

joya250	02 Oct 2001
hi there. :) I have recently begun working with the Thoth tarot deck, along with Crowley's Book of Thoth.... and, as you know, the positioning of Strength and Justice are transposed in this deck. I know it is because Crowley felt it was the "right" way, based on some sort of secret order... and in the book it talks about how it makes sense, as it makes a parabola shape with the astrological signs. (?) I am struggling with this, because it seems the majority of decks use the more "traditional" order. I have no problem accepting this different order, if I understand WHY it's done... but I'm still hazy on that part. Could anybody explain the reasoning behind this a little more clearly? thanks.

Thirteen	02 Oct 2001
Oh, my this is a sticky one. Easier to tell you why RW has Strength first and Justice second. As I understand this, Waite was the one who made the change. The OLD way had Justice as #8, Strength as #11. So blame Waite. Why did he switch the two? If you read him, all he says is that the reason he did so was "obvious." In a way, it is. First, Astrologially, it makes sense. Strength is Leo, Justice is Libra. So putting Justice as #8 doesn't work because you're putting Libra before both Virgo (the Hermit) and Leo (Strength). Leo belongs before Virgo, right? All other cards are in the right astrological order, why put these two in the wrong places? Also, you can argue that the number 11, 1 + 1 is balance. Equalling 2, the number of balance in the whole deck. But 11 is also sometimes viewed as peril, as 1 past perfection (10), upset. #8 represents "pairs of opposites." Also regeneration, the number of "thoth" or intelligence. Sounds more like Justice there (though neither Libra nor Leo is "Thoth"--the Egyptian diety for Justice has always been Maat). One book I have argues thus: Having Justice as #8 "pairs it with The Hanged man" (don't ask me how they figure this) and second, Strength at #11 puts it as the symbol for the spiritual journey that follows the world journey that ends with the Wheel of Fortune. That's their reasoning. Frankly, I find myself in agreement with RW in this. I see Justice as a good bridge between the worldly journey ending with the Wheel of Fortune and the Spiritual Journey beginning with the Hanged man. But maybe that's because I haven't heard a better reason for returning to the "old" arrangement.

joya250	04 Oct 2001
Thanks Thirteen. I too see Justice in it's right place at 11 and Strength at 7. It helps to know that it was Waite that made the change and not Crowley. I have found more about this in the Book of Thoth, but I'm still not quite getting it. maybe if I read it a million times, something will click! geesh. When I get it, I will post it here.

MeeWah	05 Oct 2001
I base my view of Strength as 8 & Justice as 11 on both the astrological & numerological correspondences. The sign of Leo, which occurs before Libra is associated with the element of Fire & with Strength. The lion symbol is associated with Fire or the raw, creative energy; the basis for all action. 8 refers to mastery as an assimilation of both the spiritual & the physical; balance between opposing principles; the quality of as above, so below; the macrocosm & the microcosm. It is also a symbol of regeneration, enlightenment or infinity. It refers to the relationship between the spiritual & mundane planes; the workings on both levels. The sign of Libra occurs after Leo, which is associated with the element of Air & with Justice. The scales are symbolic of Libra & pertain to the Cosmic Law of Cause & Effect or Karma. The sword is associated with the element of Air, representing intellect, justice & truth. 11 is a master number & therefore is not reduced. It denotes an advanced mastery on the physical plane specifically in relation to Karma & thus is the number of reincarnation. As such, physical conditions symbolize the soul's needs. Justice is impartial & fair, unemotional; an accounting of all thoughts & actions (both of which are qualities of Air).

jmd	10 Oct 2001
As was mentioned, it was Waite/Coleman Smith who were the first to publish a deck (with Rider) transposing 8 & 11. The transposition DOES make sense ***IF*** we assume the astrological correspondences mentioned in the previous posts (Strength with Leo and Justice with Libra). These, however, are NOT univerally accepted (though they are the ones Golden Dawn (GD) used, hence the swap). The number 8's association with Justice dates from ancient Greece, and, as the first cube (2 cubed, ie, 2 X 2 X 2, = 8), also depicted the element of Earth and planetary sphere on which Justice takes place. In the numbering of Strength as XI (not 11!!!), a relationship to the internal aspects of the Magician are thus also connected (X - I). Given the number of books and decks which follow Waite's numbering, it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate the presumed astrological correlations from the intrinsic merits of the Tarot. I say this also having a deep interest in Astrology, but the two do not necessarily connect in the way promulgated by the GD and its many derivatives, however wonderful their members were and enriching their contributions have become. Many newer decks have also resumed the earlier numeration. Whichever you decide upon, it is also worth remembering that the earliest surviving decks, or parts of decks (the Visconti type decks), did NOT have ANY numbers on any of their major Arcanas!

Thirteen	10 Oct 2001
Quote: jmd (10 Oct, 2001 19:28): The number 8's association with Justice dates from ancient Greece, and, as the first cube (2 cubed, ie, 2 X 2 X 2, = 8), also depicted the element of Earth and planetary sphere on which Justice takes place. In the numbering of Strength as XI (not 11!!!), a relationship to the internal aspects of the Magician are thus also connected (X - I). Given the number of books and decks which follow Waite's numbering, it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate the presumed astrological correlations from the intrinsic merits of the Tarot. I say this also having a deep interest in Astrology, but the two do not necessarily connect in the way promulgated by the GD and its many derivatives, however wonderful their members were and enriching their contributions have become. Many newer decks have also resumed the earlier numeration. Whichever you decide upon, it is also worth remembering that the earliest surviving decks, or parts of decks (the Visconti type decks), did NOT have ANY numbers on any of their major Arcanas! Very interesting stuff! I didn't know all this. Thanks for pointing it out. So GD is responsible for giving the cards their Astrological symbols in the first place? I do like the idea of a deck where the Majors are left unnumbered.

The Strength vs. Justice (positioning) thread was originally posted on 02 Oct 2001 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.