Catch 22 / Two of Swords

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Osher	20 Jan 2003
I was today in a rather humourous catch 22 involving a doctors receptionist... Thinking about it later though wondered on which card would best describe the situation. Would the 2 of Swords be the Catch 22 card? Two mental forces clashing, causing deadlock. Or would it be a combination of cards?

Centaur	20 Jan 2003
Hey Happy, It would depend on what the situation was. If it was romantic then I would have to choose The Lovers. HEHE.

Osher	20 Jan 2003
Oh no, it was a doctors receptionist. Conversation something like: I'd like to see the doctor for a blood test The nurse takes blood tests, but she is away for 2 weeks OK, what can I do, I need a blood test You can go to the hospital OK, how do I that The doctor will need to send you OK, so can the doctor see me please Before you can see the doctor you will need to see the nurse OK, but she is away Yes, you will need to come back in 2 weeks. (i.e. to see the nurse, so I can see the doctor, so I can go to hospiral, so I can have a blood test outside of the nurse because she is away) Yes, I began to laugh! OK, could be The Sun, because I was laughing, but I still think 2 swords. No?

Centaur	20 Jan 2003
What a situation! Yes, I would think the 2 of Swords!! Hope you got things sorted out!

lawguy51	20 Jan 2003
No, I don't think it's the 2 of Swords. If it were, you would have a decision that you could make but do not want to. Here, you aren't even allowed the luxury of making a decision. We're definitely in 5 of Wands territory here. Here's a quote from LearningTarot.com: The Five of Wands stands for times when your environment seems to be fighting you. Nothing flows smoothly; everyone is working at cross-purposes. The figures on this card are all batting at each other. There is no coordinated effort, no agreement. When this card shows up, be prepared for a bumpy ride. You're going to need extra patience and perseverance to get to the point where you can accomplish something. The Five of Wands does not represent major blockages, just many small, irritating ones. Sounds like your day, doesn't it? Lawguy51

Osher	20 Jan 2003
Hmm, thanks, that is what I love about Aeclectic, that you think you know the answer, but someone can come in with a totally new answer. Hmm, 5 Wands. Maybe. Could be the 9 too, being trapped and so on. BTW I just had to laugh when just as I was about to be a good boy and make an intermediate save on the model I'm working on, the program crashed. Not just after I saved, but just before! What a day!

Thirteen	21 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness I was today in a rather humourous catch 22 involving a doctors receptionist... Thinking about it later though wondered on which card would best describe the situation. Would the 2 of Swords be the Catch 22 card? Two mental forces clashing, causing deadlock. Or would it be a combination of cards? As was pointed out, a Catch-22 is, really, the run-around. It's a situation which you can't win. Look at what happened in your situation--you were WILLING to do anything to achieve your goal, but the Catch-22 kept you chasing after your tail. I think I agree with LawGuy that 5-Swords would be better. Possibly 7 Pentacles as it involved waiting. As for 5 Wands, that would be a situation where you were fighting with others over who gets the blood test (only one of you gets it, who will it be?)--and 9 Wands would be if you had to travel elsewhere to have the nurse do the blood test--you're not there yet, but you can get there. As for 2-Swords it would have gone like this: You: "I want to see the doctor for a blood test." Them: "The nurse does the blood test." You: "I want the doctor to do the blood test, not the Nurse." Them: "It doesn't work that way. The Nurse does the blood test!" You: "Okay, I'll let the nurse do the test, but I want the doctor there when she does." Them: "Well...all right, but it's highly irregular!" See, neither of you happy, but an agreement reached for now.

Osher	21 Jan 2003
Hmm, yes, I see. Thanks for that, this has been a learning process, which shows the benefits of the forum. Thanks again.

Thirteen	22 Jan 2003
Oh, hey, it also occurs to me that the Hanged Man pretty much says it all when it comes to Catch-22.

Osher	23 Jan 2003
Had some musing over this, i.e. which card is the Catch 22 card, the never-ending circle, in which you never leave, or win. Is it a loss or defeat? Well, maybe, as you can't reach your goal. In which case the 5 Swords would make sense. I saw it as the 9 (or better, the 10) of Wands, i.e. you are in a maze in which every door leads back to where you started. I wouldn't agree (for myself) with the Hanged Man, as he has the option of leaving the situation. No? 7 Penticles would be correct if the Catch 22 eventually lead to something, i.e. you just had to wait. Yet, I don't think that this is the case. To refresh, the term catch22 was invented by Heller. In the book Yosarian doesn't want to fly (combat missions), so claims he is mentally ill. In which case, the doctor says that you must be sane, as you must be sane not to want to fly. However, if you carry on flying you must be insane. Yet, if you don't ask to be grounded you wouldn't be. QED, you keep flying whatever you do. Any ideas?

Thirteen	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness I wouldn't agree (for myself) with the Hanged Man, as he has the option of leaving the situation. No? Well...you had the option of leaving that doctor's office and finding another doctor whose nurse wasn't on vacation, didn't you? But I assume that doing so wasn't going to be that easy. Same is true with the Hanged Man. He might have walked into the situation willingly, freely, but leaving isn't going to be that easy, maybe not even possible. The Hanged Man is about a time when you're hung up, suspended. Can't go forward, can't go back. And really there's nothing you can do about it--except learn from it. To get out of it you either have to wait till circumstances change (the nurse comes back), or willingly sacrifice something--your pride, your needs, your original goal--but for whatever reason, just walking away from the situation isn't a viable option. I'm not saying it's the only card to indicate a Catch-22, but in searching for cards that might be defined that way, it certainly pops to mind, at least for me.

Osher	24 Jan 2003
Funny, I have always seen the Hanged Man as continuing to be 'hanged' there, i.e. he choses to be there. He always seems calm, and at peace. Do you see him as being restrained, and not having the free will to leave?

Thirteen	24 Jan 2003
He's most certainly calm and at peace, and that's essential to the card. But it's not because he can just get down anytime he likes--not, at least, without a change in circumstances or a sacrifice. Wang says of the Hanged Man, "this is a willing suspension, a sacrifice which is a baptism, but which is also a crucifixion." As I read it, the hanged man is at peace because he's come to terms with his suspension. He is a willing sacrifice OR, more to the point, he's found that the hanging gives him a new perspective, knowledge or spiritual insight that he would not have gained otherwise. But one of the points about the Hanged Man mentioned in several books is that this is a card about giving up or giving over control. In order to get this perspective, you have to surrender to it. This is the opposite of something like Strength, where peace is knowing that you're completely in control. Here, peace and calm comes from acknowledging that you are not in control. At least, that's how I've always read the card.

Osher	25 Jan 2003
OK, here is one of those 'AHA' moments! Now I see! I always assumed he was at peace, and part of the reason he is at peace is that he has the power to leave. Now I see, that he is at peace, and calm with the situation, even though he does NOT have the power to leave. Interesting! Therefore, as I accepted the Catch22, and did not try and break it (once it was formed), I was the Hanged Man, i.e. I was trapped, but calm with it, accepting even. Thanks Thirteen, that makes a lot of sense.

jlbvt	25 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness Funny, I have always seen the Hanged Man as continuing to be 'hanged' there, i.e. he choses to be there. He always seems calm, and at peace. Do you see him as being restrained, and not having the free will to leave? Hey there, Happiness. I am still a Tarot novice, but I think the Hermit fits your description better than the Hanged Man. I definitely see the Hanged Man as being stuck, and it will take him some work to get out as he is bound upside-down by the foot! lol! The Hermit has retreated on his own accord...

Osher	25 Jan 2003
I have never considered if the Hermit chose to be alone. Interesting concept though. In the TotOP he is called The Wise One, which is another take on him.

paradoxx	29 Jan 2003
The subtitles for the second card of each suit in the osho zen tarot should fit in right here. Major-Inner Voice fire-possibilities water-happiness clouds-schiztophrenia rainbows-moment to momnent ======================

jlbvt	31 Jan 2003
I did some thinking and some research, and I came to this conclusion: The best minor for a Catch-22 deadlock is the 8 of Swords. Thank you Happiness for prompting me to learn a valuable new card meaning! I know my Majors well, but I still look up my Minors every time. They are slowly committing themselves to my long-term memory!

Osher	02 Feb 2003
Yes, I can see that. It's this idea of being trapped again. The question is, how does this differ from the hanged man? In the hanged man one is trapped, but resigned and calm. To my mind, the 8 Swords is resigned, but miserable. I suppose therefore, if my idea is right, it depends on the thinking of the trapped person, as to if they are relaxed or miserable?

The Catch 22 / Two of Swords thread was originally posted on 20 Jan 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.