2 of cups versus Lovers?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	16 Feb 2003
Oh all ye sage wizards: If the 2 of cups is subtitled Love, how do you differentiate this from the Lovers card? I know that the Lovers card in the Marseilles deck is more about choice, but in Crowley and in RWS Love between two seems to be the predominant idea. Would 2 of cups be more about actual worldly love, and the Lovers more about spiritual???? Or are both about both? Is one more about exchange, and another more about fulfillment? Heeeelp.

Centaur	16 Feb 2003
Firemaiden, Like most of the tarot, these cards mean different things in different spreads. I view The Lovers card as generally meaning a choice between two people, a choice between a situation and a person, or a choice between situations. Equally, I view it as the establishment of a relationship, the marriage of two situations, or the attainment of something that someone has wanted dearly for a long time. Some might disagree. But these are my interpretations. As for the Two of Cups; I view this as a card, ultimately, of friendship. This could refer to platonic friendship or friendship between lovers. I always feel that when The Lovers and The Two of Cups appear, it refers to a relationship based on a deep friendship that will last. Hope this helps. C

HudsonGray	16 Feb 2003
Right, there is a difference (I had trouble with the Empress & the Queen of Pentacles, who seemed identical to me). I view the Lovers as a working between two individuals or two entities, so it can be man/woman, male/female, or (very often!) a business or working situation. It's two individuals working together, not necessarily a love interest. So -- Partnerships. To me the 2 of Cups is a romance card, with two people focusing on friendship/love, or caring. It comes up for me a lot in pet readings (caring owner/pet situations), and a lot of friendship questions. So -- Relations.

Karenwhe	17 Feb 2003
I see the Lovers as the major decision of who you want to come together with and the 2 of Cups when the decision has been made. This would interpret as: who do I want to marry (lovers) and after I made the decision going to marry them (2 of cups). It is easier to propose harder to get yourself to that choice that you actually want to propose and you want to make this happen as it has consequences with it and you will have to live with them. This of course does not have to be in relationship at all it can be about work (I just got both these cards in the spread I posed in Your Readings) and it was about work. So, in short I would see the Lovers as before and the 2 of Cups as the result of the decision (something like that).

lupo138	17 Feb 2003
centaur20´s statement covered most of I would say about these cards. The 2cups had nearly always the meaning of friendship in my readings. Anyway I believe, in a rather theoretical approach, that the 2cups are about an affair or short relationship while the Lovers are about "true" love. (Now we could start a discussion what true love means but that would a) be off topic and b) an endless discussion ;) )

Umbrae	17 Feb 2003
Ah!…the Two of Cups…two is about the Line. Two individuals united. The superior female principle symbolized by the crescent moon of Egyptian and Phoenician deities. The two columns taken over from Phoenician temples… Duality and pairing. Represents partnership issues, cooperation, receptivity and the need to make a choice or decision. Two often herald a time of waiting and being passive and a need to cultivate patience. Two often relate to the characteristics of sensitivity, gentleness, and shyness. Cups is about emotions, spiritual, or inner being…put them together… The Lovers is about decisions: Mary Greer: “…you learn how the moral responsibilities taught by the Hierophant apply to human interactions…” Rachel Pollack: “The earlier title of trump 6 sometimes bears the title “The Choice”, and in divinatory readings means an important choice between two desires…The card can refer to a minor choice or even to a major crisis in a person’s life…” Joan Brunning: …”The Lovers can indicate a moral or ethical crossroads – a decision point where you must choose between the high road and the low…” As you can see, different books – different meanings. My take? For what it’s worth…the Two of Cups is usually about love (as can be the Two of Swords)…both are about bringing together of opposites…one in thought, idea, and concept and the other in love and spirit. The Lovers not about love – it’s about choosing. True, the lad could be choosing between the High Priestess or the Empress…but it’s still about choices….

Laurel	17 Feb 2003
Umbrae's last post left me virtually nothing left to say. LOL. It was beautiful. Every single Major Arcana card deals with themes that are also covered in the minor tarot. 2 of Cups and Lovers is obvious, as in 10 of Swords and Death. But I've personally found that the Major Arcana tend to be bigger and more philosophical in scope, dealing with patterns in my live, as opposed to the minors and courts which are more event and situation related. ~LAS

firemaiden	17 Feb 2003
Thank you all for your input. :* So it is about Love... is it safe to say it is about romantic pro-creational type love (whatever that is), as opposed to platonic, maternal, paternal, or fraternal love?? Is the concept of Eros included here? or is it about love from the waist up? Or is it about all of that, and also includes love for one's dog, and or for stuffed animals and pets. Can it include self-love, narcisistic love, and (shiver..) unrequieted love? Can it also include the idea of the illusion of love?, love as drug, blindness, temporary insanity? Can it include the idea of Reflections, as in Self refected in Other, Other as Mirror, Other as Shadow? Can it include the idea of embracing **Otherness**? Or is this all toooo philosphical for a minor card??? Sorry to make you guys think. Hope it doesn't do any permanent damage :P Dear Umbrae, I like the concept of duality, that gives it much more philosophical possiblity, right? I am interested to know what the Line means.

Karenwhe	17 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Thank you all for your input. :* So it is about Love... is it safe to say it is about romantic pro-creational type love (whatever that is), as opposed to platonic, maternal, paternal, or fraternal love?? Is the concept of Eros included here? or is it about love from the waist up? Or is it about all of that, and also includes love for one's dog, and or for stuffed animals and pets. Can it include self-love, narcisistic love, and (shiver..) unrequieted love? Can it also include the idea of the illusion of love? , love as drug, blindness, temporary insanity? Can it include the idea of Reflections, as in Self refected in Other, Other as Mirror, Other as Shadow? Can it include the idea of embracing **Otherness**? Or is this all toooo philosphical for a minor card??? Sorry to make you guys think. Hope it doesn't do any permanent damage :P Dear Umbrae, I like the concept of duality, that gives it much more philosophical possiblity, right? I am interested to know what the Line means. It can mean any of the above and more...... it would depend in the position and cards around. You can have 1,000 interpretations for one card and in your next reading you will find the 1,001 meaning. If you get the two of cups with only pentacles around in the entire spread, you could guess it is materially based....... However from my experience I did find that the 2 of Cups is very external (not self love etc. etc. etc. )

Alex	17 Feb 2003
to me it's exactly the contrary. Two of Cups as a materialization of the Ace, when you find the "object" of your "love". You find "love" when you are "available" (A). Pertains to that first encounter with the other and initial phase when it's about illusion and projection. The Lovers pertains a choice; in love, that of whom to come together with in partnership. But your reasoning makes sense when considering more structured societies in which "The Lovers" choice is arranged primarily by the family. The two of cups phase may or may not follow The Lovers. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe I see the Lovers as the major decision of who you want to come together with and the 2 of Cups when the decision has been made.

Karenwhe	18 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex But your reasoning makes sense when considering more structured societies in which "The Lovers" choice is arranged primarily by the family. The two of cups phase may or may not follow The Lovers. When the choice is arranged (by parent in marriage) you don't get the Lovers you get only the Ace of Cups and the Two of Cups. In pre-arranged marriages there is NO choice. The choice is sometimes made before you are born or when you are in kindergarten. I also do not refer to the Lover and the Two of Cups as only in love issues and when you bring in love issues……….. the conversation never ends. But if you do readings about work and about other things in life the Lovers can be a choice in work places and the Two of Cups the contract (of course for it to be the contract you must also have other cards around - it doesn't do the job by itself). “The Lovers does not necessarily lead to the Two of Cups”……. of course it doesn’t, what it leads to you will see in the reading, however this was only a comparison of cards not a reading. I also mentioned that the Two of Cups can mean a million and one things it all depends on the reading. But at the end of it all the Two of Cups is an external coming together in a relationship, in work partnership or whatever, while the Lover is making a choice as opposed to coming together. I also agree that the 2 of Cups is a materialization of the Ace of Cups, but we are speaking about the differences between the Lovers and the Two of Cups, so I referred only to those two not other cards. Now if I was to give an example it would go like this: Some is married and has an affair with someone outside the marriage. Somewhere in the spread the Ace of Cups shows. The person can’t keep up two lives, then the Lovers shows up somewhere in the spread saying to the querent you must choose who you want. The person decides he want the other person not the one they are married to ………… and after many spreads a divorce and a ton of other cards probably the Two of Cups shows up…………. and they live happily ever after, or not……….. but the person will still have to live with the choice he made at the Lovers point in the path.

firemaiden	18 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe ...I also mentioned that the Two of Cups can mean a million and one things it all depends on the reading. But at the end of it all the Two of Cups is an external coming together in a relationship, in work partnership or whatever, while the Lover is making a choice as opposed to coming together. -- a million and one things, Karenwhe? So be it... but then, if any card can mean anything, what is the point of using the cards at all? There must be some meanings which are intrinsic to the cards themselves. I am interested in knowing what might be the most philosophical and esoteric meaning possible for the card. Alex wrote: Alex, have I understood you? You were talking about the 2 of cups here? not the ace, not the lovers? I rather hope you were talking about the 2.

Aerin	18 Feb 2003
I tend to see the 2 of Cups as almost always about harmonious relationships with another (which of course can mean those parts projected onto others, but for me there's a definite other person/ people involved), and the Lovers as also having meanings relating to: the quality of communication between your conscious mind, other-than-conscious mind and your Higher Self communication relating to deep relationships making a choice, and the need to understand and accept the consequences of the choice for yourself and also other people Aerin

cheekyminx	18 Feb 2003
2 of cups; love is being poured down to you by above, this is your soul mate & it's meant to be, it's spiritual love" Hmm.....as for the lovers? I believe its a choice card. A decision needs to be made, a moral choice? Two people uniting of some kind, be it a friendship or relationship? but then again it depends on the question being asked??? But then again who am I to answer? I'm not that experienced in tarot ;-) Tarot reader in the making. lol

firemaiden	18 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by cheekyminx76 2 of cups; love is being poured down to you by above... Yes, I like this Cheekyminx76. That is certainly suggested by the Thoth 2 of cups! Lovely!

Karenwhe	18 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden -- a million and one things, Karenwhe? That is a figure of speech.

jema	18 Feb 2003
my take on it - the short version... The Lovers is about Love, the big L, how we apply love in our lives, how we respond to it, avoid it, bitch about it, lack it, block it and dream about it, how Love fills us and makes us whole, how we love others and ourselves. The 2 of Cups is see as a very specific love, a relationship with a person or a thing. it is how you relate to a person, your brother, your husband, your parents, your kids.

Alex	18 Feb 2003
I see a choice made on one's "behalf" as a choice. But before everyone starts strongly disagreeing with me I must say that I see "choice" as a mix between free will and cultural introjections. I choice where "free will" preponderates is in my oppinion rarer. [/b][/quote] Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe In pre-arranged marriages there is NO choice. The choice is sometimes made before you are born or when you are in kindergarten. I know. I was specifically talking about romance, though, otherwise the message ends up immense. [/b][/quote] I also do not refer to the Lover and the Two of Cups as only in love issues and when you bring in love issues……….. the conversation never ends. [/b][/quote] The Ace shows up because the person is emotionally unfullfilled, and available for another relationship. The two of cups signifies the relationship itself (the affair). The Lovers, the choice to pursue it. That's what I meant to say. [/b][/quote] Now if I was to give an example it would go like this: Some is married and has an affair with someone outside the marriage. Somewhere in the spread the Ace of Cups shows. The person can’t keep up two lives, then the Lovers shows up somewhere in the spread saying to the querent you must choose who you want. The person decides he want the other person not the one they are married to ………… and after many spreads a divorce and a ton of other cards probably the Two of Cups shows up…………. and they live happily ever after, or not……….. but the person will still have to live with the choice he made at the Lovers point in the path. [/b][/quote] Alex.

Eviemay	18 Feb 2003
I see the Lovers as this; A choice to be made between the heart and the head... and to go with the heart. And the two of Cups as this; A harmonius relationship, the other being very loving and trustworthy. Sometimes it can mean that after a quarrel or split, there will be a reconciliation. That's my two cents worth, Evie

phirefly	19 Feb 2003
was the question particularly regarding how the two cards pertain to love and relationships? i know that might sound like a silly question when discussing these two cards, but i think that's sort of a limiting view, at least of the lovers, to say they are solely about love. i like what eviemay said, particularly about how the lovers distinguishes between the heart and the head. i see the lovers as the opposing card to the devil. where the devil focuses on the concious mind, the head, the lovers focuses on the subconscious, the heart. so really, it doesn't even need to pertain to love (or choices for that matter), it just often does. i tend to see the two of cups as a beginning, potential. but then, all twos are like that. this just happens to deal with a more emotional connection, where the two of swords might refer to good communication, and the two of discs might mean a physical or financial bond. all the posts provide some insight into the cards. the key really is context, and your feeling about its meaning.

mags@Treadwells	01 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel Umbrae's last post left me virtually nothing left to say. LOL. It was beautiful. Every single Major Arcana card deals with themes that are also covered in the minor tarot. ... is obvious, as in 10 of Swords and Death. . ~LAS ehh? 10SW over reaction death inner transformation.

Jaykob	02 Jul 2003
I'm sort of new at this...but... I see the Lovers card to represent Love in the sense of unification, especially the unification of opposites. Afterall, the card depicts a man and a woman, two opposites joining together harmoniously. I see the Lovers card to mean the joining of these opposites in order to make a complete. At least in readings I do myself, the Lovers card can mean the general unification between two people, but more often for me it has to do with the acknowledgement of opposing forces coming together to complete a whole. This unification is more often than not emotional, but it can also be physical and spiritual. I see the Two of Cups as more specific. I think that it's almost always about two people and love in the emotional sense.

The 2 of cups versus Lovers? thread was originally posted on 16 Feb 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.