The High Priestess and her alter

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Diana	11 May 2003
I get a lot of messages in my dreams. Last night I heard this sentence spoken very loud and I know it is important but I do not understand it. It was: "The alter of the High Priestess is Temperance". Any insights that you may have would be very much appreciated.

HOLMES	11 May 2003
yet,, :O) kabbalistically speaking . the highpriestress goes from 1 to 6, or rather crown to beuty. the bottom line of the straight lines is the temperance which goes from 6 to 9. which goes from beuty to foundation and from there the bottom line is the world card from foundation to kingdom. the high priestress to go from crown of the universe to the beuty of the world has to go through the da'ath and uncover secrets which we know but is not revealed to us. like dreams that we only understand over time. i see an alter as a foundation or a core so in order to understand the high priestress more it is telling us to examine the beuty aspects of the universe and how they make the foundation of everything in creation. (everything is beuty just as everything is holy ) and from that foundation comes the line of the world which connects to the kingdoms. "everything in the world of the kingdom connects to is foundation which connects to everything through the temperance of beuty and through that to the high priestress aspects of the crown or source of the universe," numerology i don't see no conneciton , 14 makes 4,, 3, 5 of course taking the higher aspects of the temperance to make heirophant and the deeper aspects to make emperess ,, subracte them get you the high priestress. "to understand the high priestress more consider the hierophant energies by using the emperess energies to recieve the wisdom of the teachings of angels to connect to the source by slowly recieving the symbolics message of life" and finally for the message it self. quote The alter of the High Priestess is Temperance". quote. the highpriestress secrets are revelaed in the time of balance and moderation of our holy angels. to use them an alter to understand the universe is to connect to everything through our secret prayers which only we know but the whole universe feels. to use the temperance card to reach the source, is to simply recieve the healing energies and allow the balance of all in our lives. (to achieve the guidance of the source one must do some things. 1. eat no fear filled meat 2. know yourself well as to hold no secrets from yourself. 3. come from intregity of the soul. 4. be honest with every living thing. 5. detach from everything as to not to judge but as not be cold heart as well. 6. love unconditionaly as the archangel rapheal loves us and offers to heal our souls. 7.to live unjudgmental is to live in state of unbeing. by so unbeing we are in fact being our true selves who are closer to the source then every illusion we see in our lives 8. the high priestress says listen well, and open your eyes so you might see ( work on one eyes chakras and ear chakras and crown chakra 0 9. through peace we will recieve the wisdom and love of the universe (work on heart center and crown center ) 10 and finally know that as we pray (request ) so shall we recieve, so that wisdom and insight asked shall be sent to your high priestress aspects of your personal energies. be open .

allibee	11 May 2003
Hi Diana I'm not sure, but the idea I personally get from this is not so much the qualities that Temperance has that the HP doesn't, but more about what they have in common. Like reinforcement. Like these are the essentials? maybe LOL Calmness; Patience; Self Control. Alternatively, it may mean blending everything together. Just some thoughts Allison

jmd	11 May 2003
...interesting indeed, Diana. I must admit that when I first read the title of the thread, I wasn't sure if you meant 'alter' or 'altar', as previously mis-spelt in another thread. When I then read that this was heard, then the 'language of the birds' allows for this homophony to be also synonym. With this in mind, it takes a different twist. The altar of the Popess is through the proper admixture of the alchemical elements for the task at hand. Is this not, after all, an aspect of what her book contains? Posssible guidance for what needs to be done and the way(s) to achieve/see it?

firemaiden	11 May 2003
Hey Diana, I was just about to write, but jmd beat me to it-- that this misspelling is a delightful pun. (Dreams love puns) At first I understood "altar", but then I thought, wait, your dream means Temperance is her "alter-ego". Perhaps this reflects that the wisdom of the High Priestess comes from within, while the wisdom of Temperance, is as though poured down from above.

Diana	11 May 2003
Holmes: as usual, I will have to print out your response to study it. I think I will have to start studying the kabbalah, or else I am missing out on too much of your input in these forums. I didn't realise that I had misspelled the word. Darn. Will firemaiden ever forgive me (although I did not end a single sentence with a preposition). Allibee also clicked on to this homophone. Interesting. However, in my dream, I really got the impression that it was an altar that was being referred to. Although the language of the birds is not something I wish to ignore, especially after all your posts here. I have never had an altar, like some people do - it is not something I relate to. (Which explains maybe why I don't know how to spell it - lol - ). My altar is everywhere. Another odd thing is that I don't normally refer to the second Arcanum as The High Priestess. Now what alchemical elements am I supposed to be using here. I suppose that on top of the Kabbalah, I'll have to start studying alchemy as well. Any more insights?

divinerguy	11 May 2003
The altar is the work surface of the HP. It is the foundation upon which all of her work is performed. The Temperance card's underlying theme of balance and the bringing together of opposites is represented in the passing of liquid between her two cups. The HP's card also strongly echoes the balancing of energies. Not only is the card symmetrical in appearance, the symbology also represents a woman of power between opposing energies. On each side of her are the Solomonic columns of Jachin and Boaz. Also, the virginal curtain behind her is covered in male and female symbols in the form of palms and pomegranates. This card screams "balance." From this, its not a stretch to conclude that balance is important in the way in which she carries out her holy duties, which are represented in a euphemistic altar.

allibee	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Any more insights? LOL, yes, you are spending too long with the tarot and you are going completely mad, hehehe. Just kidding :O)

Belladonna	11 May 2003
I could be wrong, but this almost has the feeling of something to come. I would be aware in your waking life if you should strangely or coincidentally come across an altar devoted to Temperance, or an angel that reminds you of such. Maybe there is wisdom for you there, wisdom coming from the High Priestess- you, your subconcious, through your dreams. Or perhaps it is a suggestion to try working with an altar devoted to balance, integration, and healing. Are you going through a transition that could be going more smoothly, either personally or physically? I see the High Priestess as meant to be you. We don't create altars for Priestesses, but for goddesses, divinity or something which we choose to cherish the sacredness of. Perhaps your subconcious or higher self is trying to show you something you are in need of cultivating at this time.

firemaiden	11 May 2003
Lest we think dreams carry no meaning, consider this search for meaning as a creative process. We create meaning, by writing the story. Consider, perhaps meaning is not intrinsic to a dream, any more or less than it is to tarot cards, yet we will find it if we look long and deeply. This work of looking long and deeply takes us deep into ourselves at the same time it takes us grandly outside of ourselves. It is the work of weaving connections. Do we need meaning? Do we need stories? Do we need myths? legends? metaphors? tarot cards? Yes, I think we do. As Joan Didion wrote in The White Album, 1979, "we tell ourselves stories in order to live." So, if the search for meaning should appear a grandiose balloon full of hot air, perhaps it is not the hot air itself which is important, but the process of blowing it. The creative process of looking, writing, thinking, searching deeply is love.

jmd	11 May 2003
I must admit that I wasn't expecting Diana to have heard 'High Priestess', but had rather thought of the Popess! Divinerguy also reminds us of the very Masonic symbolism in the RWCS depiction, with its dual named pillars, the mosaic pavement, and the book on the altar :) Now as to Temperance, again she reminds us that she is but one of four cardinal virtues. Above some older Masonic buildings (especially, from photoes I have seen, it seems in Italy and the Lowland countries), Temperance is one of the three (of the four cardinal) virtues depicted, representing one of the degrees. ... but now for some musings: ' The altar of the High Priestess is her Temperance ' To alter, to temper, is to transform. To alter the High Priestess requires tempering. To Temper, forge, with the high Priestess transforms one as with Fire and Water ... The auteur of the High Priestess is Temperance.

Alex	11 May 2003
Moongold I was sliding down this thread to go to the last post just to day that, but then I saw you'd said it already. I reiterate Moongold's observation and add one: what we remember from a dream is often just a fragment of that dream. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Diana, maybe it doesn't really mean anything. Dreams are like that sometimes. Moongold

Alex	11 May 2003
to mental processes has been mostly created and maintained by psychoanalitic theory. It is very different than the ancient tradition of "telling stories" that ended in very "meaningful" myths. Freud tried to give a scientific character to his techniques of "assigning meanings". Giving a mental process a meaning is NOT a creative process according to psychoanalitic thinking. It is a process of discovery, it is about finding a truth, an archeological process of sorts. At least in the minds of the ones who practice it. When you read cards and interpret them, you can tell stories. You can attribute meanings. You can "find truths". But you should not in your head make a confusion between these different processes. Because they are different. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Do we need meaning? Do we need stories? Do we need myths? legends? metaphors? tarot cards?

Belladonna	11 May 2003
Diana, I just wanted to let you know I pm'd you on the subject. Love and light, Belladonna

firemaiden	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex Giving a mental process a meaning is NOT a creative process according to psychoanalitic thinking. It is a process of discovery, it is about finding a truth, an archeological process of sorts. At least in the minds of the ones who practice it. Alex. I think I follow you, Alex. Looking into a dream, or into a tarot card feels like a process of discovery indeed; the treasures that we mine there by looking deeply, make us feel like archeologists digging for artefacts of a lost world. While an archeologist digs for artefacts, however, he supposes that treasures may be lying in wait, so to speak, waiting to be to painstakingly un-buried. Dreams, however, like tarot cards, are made of flimsier stuff. Consider this: as the archeologist digs, what if there was never anything in the mound, at all to begin with. What if it is the very art of digging, which creates the treasures being there? In this case, the search itself, would become a creative act. This may seem contradictory. Yet, if we begin with the premise that dreams like tarot cards - are just pieces of paper with paint on them, our interpretations of them, are actually our creations. Just as I do not think there is meaning inherent in a card, or in a dream, I also think the possibility to find meaning there is limitless, since it is limited only by our ability to create. Therefore, to me, it does not make sense to say "maybe there is no meaning in the dream, this time" You have to really believe in spooks to think that sometimes there is meaning and sometimes there is not, (depending on which spooks were participating) -- no the potential meaning lies in our ability to weave it there, which is what we are doing by attempting to answer the question. P.S. You are refering to dreams as a mental process. Looking at them as a mental process is one thing, and may be the basis of freudian psychoanalytic therory. But interpreting dreams is certainly not modern.

skytwig	11 May 2003
Very witchy stuff here = High Priestess, Altar, Alchemy, Magick..... I personally associate the HP with the Bateleur much more than the Hierophant. If you look at Her in that light, what do you See? Aso: An Altar is a Place of Creation. Alchemy is Creativity. HP is Intuition of the Highest Realm. Intuition and Alchemy....... Play with the concepts......... You already Know the meaning.

Astraea	11 May 2003
Diana, my perception is that the spoken statement in your dream is related to the card (Princess of Swords from the Spiral deck) which Major Tom pulled for you recently, in the context of a life change you are contemplating. In that card, a decisive-looking girl holds a sword upright (whose point is cut off by the border of the card); her body is formed of streams of energy, punctuated by vortices which look like eyes. She holds the sword to her left side (associated symbolically with the unconscious, but physically governed by the right side of the brain). Her gaze is direct, challenging -- she dares one to acknowledge truth as she understands it. Her right foot -- governed by the left side of the brain -- is cut off by the card, as is her upward-streaming red hair (symbols of forward momentum, power, and strength, respectively). To me, this says that a situation/level of comprehension is still in development, not quite ripe for decisive action on the physical plane. It could be that, in an earnest effort to ascertain the best direction for your life right now, you are splitting hairs in a pointless (image of the sword) fashion, while larger, pithier issues need to be addressed in terms of balance (sides of the body, abbreviated foot), so that a body (girl taking form from the elements) of wisdom can take shape for you to see (eyes/vortices). The High Priestess can be understood as a fuller development of the Princess of Swords (one holds the book of wisdom, one the sword of truth, not yet fully seen) -- and both are you. The High Priestess' altar (the means of practical working) is Temperance: a sense of proportion, and the balanced reconstitution of seeming opposites in a viable and fully developed way. I see both the dream statement and the Princess of Swords as a related pair, two sides of a coin, communicating to you a message of optimism (in that the best path is truly in-formation: learn, study, assess before acting), and instruction to stand pat until you have sufficient input (Temperance: contents of her cups) to act on the larger picture you will soon be able to see.

Thirteen	11 May 2003
I believe (don't quote me) that Santerian magicians have a sort of "temperance" altar that they use to work magic. It's unique in that "altering" the altar does the magic, as compared to a ritual around or before the altar. What they do this this: they create two sides, a dark and a light if you will. They put on this altar things they've found, things that mean something to them. So, to one side, there might be a black stone, to other a white stone, to one side a bird skull, to the other bird feathers. Things balance things out according to placement (forward, middle or back of altar). So light stone is center altar on one side, dark stone center altar on the other side. I'm afraid I forget whether the higher up part of the altar indicates important things, as compared to the lower. It might depend on the magician. They use odd things as well, not so easily catagorized like jewlery, leaves, a cd, a fork or an old toy, religious icons. To one side a rusted nail to the other a pretty pink sea shell. Life or death, beautiful or ugly, fire to water, earth to air--they arrange these things to strike a personal dualistic balance--and to shift reality. You see it is (as I recall) by manipulating the things on these altars, rearranging them, adding and subtracting, "altering" their positions, that they do their magic. So, if someone is sick and you want to heal them, you move the green leaf from the back, light-side of the altar to the front, light-side of the altar (that is, if I'm right and the front is more important than the back). The dead leaf that balances it remains at the back of the dark side of the altar. As the green leaf indicates to you, personally, life and health, this movement shifts the unbalance of their sickness and "heals" the person. You see how rearrangement of things, meaningful to the magician, who assigns them power, can alter the balance and reality. Of course, there are consequences to working this kind of magic with too much of a focus toward one goal--and not enough respect for temperance. I remember, on hearing the lecture about these altars, being shown one picture of one, very unbalanced, with some really nasty stuff on the dark side. The speaker said, "Notice how this magician has arranged his altar lopsided--the dark side far out weighs the light. He was trying to do work some very dark magic, do bad things to others. It worked, but it's made him a very dark person." The altar, not suprisingly, reflected the balance in the magician as well as in the world he was trying to affect; an unbalanced altar is an unbalanced magician; as pointed out, an "altar-ego". Anyway, that's what came to my mind on reading about your dream, the HPS' altar being Temperance. By the by, if you want to start having such an altar--but see your altar as everywhere, you can do the following. Get a small bag, one that fits nicely in whatever larger bag you carry with you. Put in it a scarf, candle--a small candle holder, matches, and a small statue/image of importance to you. When you feel the spiritual need--to balance your soul out, to meditate or pray or, yes, do a little magic, look around for small objects, gather them up. You don't need too many, just ones to symbolize things to you. Lay out the scarf, candle and image top center. Light the candle, and start setting the small objects that caught your eye on the altar. Arrange and re-arrange till you achieve balance. Meditate or pray. When done, blow out candle, remove/put back small objects, fold up and put away scarf, candle, image in little bag. Behold, the traveling altar that is a part of "everywhere." Goes very well with the Kabbalistic HPS who is also known as the "camel." She carries you across the desert, as Holmes mentioned, da'ath, the abyss, to enlightenment. I rather think she'd have a traveling altar as well.

Diana	11 May 2003
I want to thank everyone for taking so much time and giving me all their insights. Astraea in particular has been very helpful indeed. I will be thinking hard about all that has been said and will probably get back to this thread with my own insights in a couple of days time when I have had time to integrate this message. As to whether this message which I got in a dream-state was important or not, I just want to say that I know very well whether the messages I get from my guides and angels are important or not. It is not the first, nor I hope, the last time I have received very important information in my dreams. In this case, I think I was getting a message from both my guides and my angels. The Papess is a guide, she holds all the secrets and will share those secrets to those she feels are ready to hear them. Temperance is an angel, probably an archangel. I was pleased to share this secret with you all.

Diana	11 May 2003
Oh my goodness. I hadn't seen Thirteen's offerings before I wrote my last post. Wonderful stuff, Thirteen! You are truly amazing. (Please check your PM box.) Oh and by the way: everyone can make all the comments they like on my dream. Funny, serious, or whatever. They are all important for me.

Alex	11 May 2003
firemaiden You are certainly right. I was not standing up for the analogy I have made, the analogy is just an attempt to illustrate a premise that lies behind what, in modern times, is called "dream interpretation". When we ask the question "what does it mean?" we imply the existence of an objective reality. Freud tried to find "universal themes" in dreams and he assigned "meanings" to these themes. He tried to look at dreams as an objective reality. We engage in "finding the meanings", rather than "creating" them. Following the Freudian school or whatever has evolved from it. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Dreams, however, like tarot cards, are made of flimsier stuff. Consider this: as the archeologist digs, what if there was never anything in the mound, at all to begin with. What if it is the very art of digging, which creates the treasures being there?. I know. It is a subject I don't know about, however. I never had the curiosity to read anything about pre-Freudian dream interpretation. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden P.S. You are refering to dreams as a mental process. Looking at them as a mental process is one thing, and may be the basis of freudian psychoanalytic therory. But interpreting dreams is certainly not modern. I think you're right in what you are saying, I was looking at it from another angle though. I find the question of whether we create meanings to or recover meanings from the cards very interesting. Worthy exploring, I mean. If we "create" meanings, then Umbrae's content that "learning" the meanings from others is a waste of time has to be accepted as truth. If we "uncover the meangins" of the cards, as Freud tried to uncover the meanings of dreams, then there should be an external frame of reference we all have to refer to. JUst a thought. Alex.

skytwig	11 May 2003
Thirteen, that was delicious! So much wonderful information. My altar has 5 working areas, built with stones from altars of a sacred fire that was an intimate part of my Reiki attunments. Each direction - N, S, E, W and Spirit, holds relevant symbols and things representative of that direction. and, yes, I move things around! I also place things or written affirmations/statements on the appropriate direction mini-altar within the altar. When they are manifested or fixed, I remove them. Some of the stones are big enough to be altars within themselves, that 's why this works so well. Ritual is so binding, that I tend to stay away from it. However, the 'ritual' of placement, the alchemy of creative communication with Spirit not only appeals to me, but is already occuring. I did it quite naturally. Unknowingly, really - which is the best way! :laugh: For me, I see an altar before the Magician. I see altars throughout the Tarot, for that is the magic-board of our transformation. I would love to learn more about this, are there any websites I can visit?

Diana	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES (to achieve the guidance of the source one must do some things. 1. eat no fear filled meat Holmes: This strikes me as very important to my question. But how is it possible not to eat meat that is not fear-filled? Surely any animal that is trapped and killed would be full of fear?

HOLMES	11 May 2003
there in lies the secret. when an animal is killed the fear resides in the meat. and when we eat that meat that fear is digested by us. that is why vegatables and living foods are the answer for it is a more direct energy source. when a plant gets a leaf cut off from it there is red blood aura produced for a plant is a living thing. can a plant know fear ? i dont' know myself. divine wise it is a more reccomended food. still either way we are devourers of resources in order to stay alive, to understand that nature and to live in nature with it is a ideal to strive for. (i think that is why hunters in the old days went for the straight insta kill whenever possible 1. the animal wouldn't suffer 2. the meat wouldn't be filled with fear. ) i believe there is procedures to auraically clear the meat before it is diguest but they are known to me. for native americans i think we used to smudge the food and see the food as sacred gifts from the universe, and give a pray for every food we ate. that has been lost to us over time, most of us and now only at feasting do we say a prayer and smudge the food and offer a little bit of it to the creator. p.s i am still a meat eater, i am striving to over come this aspect of myself for energy wise the connection to divine guidance will be clearer.

skytwig	11 May 2003
Remember the Schmoos in L'il Abner? They ran around saying, "Eat me, Eat me". Yes, Holmes, plants feel fear..... It was discovered in the 60s, quite by accident. Scientific American reported it and I think you can find info on the Internet. In the study, planets reacted negatively to fire, scissors, 'bad' people, rotten music, etc. They reacted positively to good music, kind people, talking!! That's why I hug trees. All living things have spirit, even rocks and ground! I believe they have personalities and may actually be more highly evolved than we humans!! (How's that for a through the looking glass view? :laugh: ) Makes one want to be a Breatharian! But I thank the food for their 'love' and eat it. :) skytwig

firemaiden	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex If we "create" meanings, then Umbrae's content that "learning" the meanings from others is a waste of time has to be accepted as truth. If we "uncover the meangins" of the cards, as Freud tried to uncover the meanings of dreams, then there should be an external frame of reference we all have to refer to. JUst a thought. Wow Alex, yes! A very interesting thought indeed. I guess it must be a little bit of one and a little bit of the other!

zorya	11 May 2003
Altar; place for spiritual focus Temperance; to temper High Priestess; one who knows spiritual truths/secrets. To learn, grow and understand more spiritually, you may need to focus on tempering your own emotions and reactions.

Marie	11 May 2003
Hi Diana:) It seems to me that the place where the High Priestess is sitting, on the region between the black and white pillars, is a place of temperance, just by virtue of being between the black and the white. On the kabbalistic tree of life the middle pillar is called the pillar of mildness. Mildness is synonymous with temperance. :)Marie

allibee	11 May 2003
Now, it must be remembered that Aleister Crowley renamed Temperance. He called it ART. I have just ploughed my way through the following link - giving a hop, skip and jump through the stuff on Quantum Physics admittedly, LOL - and I have a bit of a headache as my feeble mind found some of it very heavy going. HOWEVER, there are MANY references specifically and non specifically to the HP on this Art/Temperance card page. (The main one about 3/4 of the way down.) http://members.tripod.com/Zero-Point/holistic/path25.html At the end of the day, having taken on board this new knowledge, I feel that another theory on your question of your dream could be that the altar, where you focus to work with your HP energies can be reached through Art and it's inner processes. Got a brush? A.

skytwig	11 May 2003
Exactly, alibee, for Creativity is the motion of love/life Itself. As we dive into it's Grand possibilities, we learn so much, yes, our brains ache with the wonder of it! Einstein said, Imagination is more important that knowledge! Creativity is alchemy spiraling through our beings. what a gift to be able to Create. yes, i have a brush and crayons and beads and music and I soar through the wonder of words and color and magick. I find that my mind is the biggest brush of all and how I utilize it makes all the difference! The High Priestess is the 'tool' card that is most important to me, Intuition, the Voice of Spirit. It is through Intuition and Listening to my Inner Truth that I find the unexpected and the marvelous. We are taught to fear that Inner Voice, but it is through that Avenue that we find all for which we hunger. We categorize and define and limit possibility. we call it Knowledge, when, in truth, knowledge is indefinable and infinite. Imagination tells us a lot about the Universe and we do well to pay attention to it, to honor those things we on Earth define as silly or nonsense. Why, after all, would we even imagine them? :)

Alex	11 May 2003
Yes, he said that; however, what is implicit in this assertion is that he_Einstein_ differentiated imagination from knowledge. Saying in other others, these two things aren't the same. If they were the same, there would be no two words, but one. And Einstein would not have to weight one against the other. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by skytwig Einstein said, Imagination is more important that knowledge!

The The High Priestess and her alter thread was originally posted on 11 May 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.