Wands=Fire and Swords=Air?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Mr. Sluagh	30 May 2003
I just don't get this association. I mean, it seems to me that Swords and Fire are the ones that cut and burn and hurt and destroy and cleanse, whereas Wands and Air symbolize motion and direction. The meanings of the Minor Arcana in the Smith-Waite deck seem to reflect this from what I can tell, and until people on this forum started saying it was the other way around, I was under the impression that those were the default meanings. Would someone care to shed some light on the subject? I'm confused.

Jenny-Li	30 May 2003
I think the RWS system meant to have it the "other way 'round": Wands = fire and Swords = Air. To me it makes sense, because to me the Fire isn't consuming, but the fire inside that drives us, that make us go for what we want - the fire of passion. Whereas the Air-element refers to thoughts, truth, clarity and insight - Swords are the suit of the mind, simply put. The Sword-suit is not a suit for bad and hurtful things, it's just that the mind is a complex thing, and many of the problems we encounter in our daily lives start here, with the mind. Take the 3 of Swords for example: Sorrow is a natural healing process of the mind, after you've lost something or someone or after something just went wrong or whatever it is that broke your heart - you need to grieve before you move on. But once you're ready, you have to know in your mind that you are ready, and you have to consciously decide to move on, because otherwise you can easily get stuck in the sorrow. I don't know if this made any sense, but I hope it did. It may also be just my 2 cents, and I also look forward to reading other ppl's responses. Jenny :)

Indigo_lady	30 May 2003
there are decks where the Swords are fire and the Wands are Air. Like the Witches Tarot. One thing I don't understand though: in the book that comes with the deck, written by Ellen Cannon Reed, she goes card by card with three descriptions Waite, Golden Dawn, and Witches (obvious, no?) Thing is, I don't understand how she makes the relation between the cards so easily if she herself is saying that between the decks, though they are *the same cards* with *equivalent meaning* they don't have the same nature Like you I relate the Swords better with fire and the Wands with Air. But then again, that's me. And as they have said endless times in this forum, go with what ur intuition tells you ;) Ultimately is what you see in the card, not what a book might say I had a dream the other day. I made a dream spread to interpret it and BOOM.. the image description that I get is the 2 of Swords... which is not a card I particularly like. But when I saw it I immediately new it was an actual description of my dream because the focus of it was a red bird (btw, anyone who can give me a hint on that damn red bird is very welcome, coz he seems to be jumping into my dreams for days now) ... Anyways, in the Witches Tarot 2 of swords is a young man turned around, you can't see his face and he's wearing a red cape and the wind blows underneath it. And the contour or shape the cape makes is identical to.... a red bird. I've never been happier to see that card in my life (thanks to my instinct), because after that I new that the explanation the spread gave me was going to be accurate ;) So, it's a bit off track, but I got inspired with this little red bird flying around me.. moral of the story: trust yourself and what ur instinct tells you. If u'r doing smth that doesn't feel right you'll never really connect to it Hope it helps ;)

Mr. Sluagh	30 May 2003
(Just to warn you, I seem to be in somewhat of an argumentative mood.) Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li I think the RWS system meant to have it the "other way 'round": Wands = fire and Swords = Air. To me it makes sense, because to me the Fire isn't consuming, but the fire inside that drives us, that make us go for what we want - the fire of passion. But if you let that fire run wild, it'll burn you from the inside out. Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li Whereas the Air-element refers to thoughts, truth, clarity and insight - Swords are the suit of the mind, simply put. Seems to me you make that argument about most of the pips one way or another. Aside from that, I always thought of Cups as the suite of the Mind. Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li The Sword-suit is not a suit for bad and hurtful things, it's just that the mind is a complex thing, and many of the problems we encounter in our daily lives start here, with the mind. Seems to me that Swords — like fire — are cruel at their worst, cleansing at their best, and always freeing one way or another. Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li Take the 3 of Swords for example: Sorrow is a natural healing process of the mind, after you've lost something or someone or after something just went wrong or whatever it is that broke your heart - you need to grieve before you move on. But once you're ready, you have to know in your mind that you are ready, and you have to consciously decide to move on, because otherwise you can easily get stuck in the sorrow. Like I said, most if not all pips can be described in that light if you put your mind to it. I always thought of the Three of Swords as the "back to the drawing board" card.

Jenny-Li	30 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh (Just to warn you, I seem to be in somewhat of an argumentative mood.) I've no problem with that, actually - but to be honest I don't think we disagree very much. If I hadn't stopped writing when I did (for lack of time) I would have eventually ended up making most of your posts. They are not exclusive of each other, your points of view and mine... :) Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh But if you let that fire run wild, it'll burn you from the inside out. Yes. Have you seen people who burn themselves out from their work? It's always the ones who passionately love what they are doing, not the slackers who'd rather just stay in bed. (Although they sometimes try to use being "burnt out" as an untrue excuse, but that's a different story.) See 10 of wands, that's exactly what that card is about. You love it, but it gets out of hand and ends up consuming you. Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh Seems to me you make that argument about most of the pips one way or another. Aside from that, I always thought of Cups as the suite of the Mind. I'm not sure what you mean about making that argument about most the pips - would you care to elaborate? I am not saying anyone is wrong, I was providing perspective by discribing the way I see things. To me Cups has nothing to do with the mind, but rather with emotions/feelings. That is not the same as the mind. Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh Seems to me that Swords — like fire — are cruel at their worst, cleansing at their best, and always freeing one way or another. I wouldn't say cruel, because even when truth hurts, it doesn't hurt out of cruelty. It something we need to learn, to deal with and to handle. Part from that, I agree with you. Air is very much freedom to me too. Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh Like I said, most if not all pips can be described in that light if you put your mind to it. I always thought of the Three of Swords as the "back to the drawing board" card. Still not sure what you mean, but the 3 of Swords, just as the rest of the cards, is complex. Back to the drawing-board would seem a bit too limited to me, just as I guess you mean my explaining was too vague for your personal preference. I don't even like using the word "meaning" to the card's significations - to me they all are more vague like that, and the only way to read them is in relation to the rest of the cards in a spread - and in relation to the querent and in relation to the querent's situation and question etc etc. It's just like an alphabet. Or better yet, take the Japanese Kanji system (which is the same writing system as the Chinese use, only I an not familliar with how Chinese language works): every sign does have a certain "meaning" or "theme", but they still don't make sense until they are seen together with other signs, forming words, sentences and texts, poems, literature. This is still just the way I perceive things, but I hope it makes some kind of sense anyways. Jenny :)

lunalafey	30 May 2003
For years I was familiar with only wands/air & swords/fire.....It makes complete sense to me for these reasons; wands are usually presented as some wooden staff, fire would destroy it where as swords are created by fire. When we see swords there is passion, "He's got the hots for her" etc. Wands are of spirit, unseen, like the air. When we feel a sense of rejuvination, we say "that was like a breath of fresh air" When I found AT I found out that 'traditionally' it is the other way around....there are MANY threads on this subject, now I relate to both 'versions' & read comfortably either way the deck is set up. I prefer W/A & S/F.

jema	30 May 2003
Elements in the tarot is not "real" elements. Fire-cards are not about real fire. The elements are a que, a symbol, a representation of ourselves or an aspect of ourselves. Once we start thinking about wands burning up in fire etc we are taking it too literal. What inside me correlates to fire? What inside of me is hot and bright? It's my passion, the thing that drives me is my intuition and creativity and my desire to give birth to what is inside of me. It all ties in pretty well with astrology, the water signs being emotional, the air-signs being mind-driven etc.

Thirteen	30 May 2003
The Wands vs. Sword discussion, as mentioned by others, is really old--and so incredibly common on this forum that it really should be a FAQ--heaven knows, we ought to have a FAQ list with this one on it. Along with "Why is Strength #8 and Justice #11?"). As also has been mentioned, plenty of decks DO switch the two (swords/fire, wand/air). So if you'd like to have it the other way, that's fine. The usual argument for Sword/Fire is that the thing (Sword) should not be consumed by its element. So Swords are tempered in fire, etc, so Sword = Fire. Also that it takes passion to fight--so swords = passion. The argument for Sword/Air is that the thing (Sword) should reflect it's element (Air) in what that element means--words, troubles, mental. Swords cuts, they sever, they settle arguments, they whistle through the air, they have two sides, cut both ways...etc. Very "Air." The argument for Wands/Air is often related to wands as growing plants, needing air. The argument for Wands/Fire is the very one that you mention--being burned up. The Logic here goes: You can't get "Fire" out of a sword. But you can rub two sticks together to get a fire. The fire--passion, energy--therefore, is within the wands. Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh But if you let that fire run wild, it'll burn you from the inside out. As Jenny-li pointed out, yes, of course. THAT'S the argument FOR Wands as Fire. With passion, energy, obsession, you can burn yourself up or out. Similarly, your own words can be used to cut you down, your own mental cleverness used to stab you in the back. Thus, Swords = Air. Quote: Seems to me you make that argument about most of the pips one way or another. Aside from that, I always thought of Cups as the suite of the Mind. All things are in the mind. Emotions (water), words/thoughts (air), passion (fire)--even, oft times, how we physically feel (earth). But the tarot separates things into, traditionally, these elements with these meanings: Sword/Air = Air is communications, words, talking--but also writing, and, because most arguments are verbal, fighting. Also the troubles that come from misunderstandings--as well as the cutting mental process involved with clever words (ever been cut down in an argument?). Even science is included in this--all that sharp, cool brain power. That's why swords are often refered to as "the mind" as compared to "emotions" or "body." Swords can be cold, and cruel, but like all sharp objects, they can also be used like scapels, to do surgery and amputations and save lives. Cups/Water = Water is the deep emotions; love, compassion, intuition, dreams. Those that give and adore. Like water, they quench the thirst, flow and refresh. But also like water, you can float or drown in them--which is why cups are related to psychic powers (deep intuition), addiction and insanity (drowning in emotions and confusion). Wands/Fire = Fire is passion, religion, energy, inspiration. This is a driving force that, like fire, lights the way, and is so warming you want to be near it--but can also burn down. Unlike air which convinces with cool logic, fire uses sheer charisma. That's why it relates to religion--because people will ignore what their "minds" tell them, what logic and science tell them is true--and follow the fire instead. This is the spark of inspiration, of revolutions. It drives leaders, inspires artists, makes for workaholics, marytrs, movements and monumental changes. Things go up in flames, and burn till no more can be consumed--sending out more sparks and starting other fires in the process--or dying out and leaving beind a pile of ashes. Disks/Earth = Earth is the physical, the body, but also related to just hard, solid work and toil. It's the things you own, your health, your work, your body, your home. I'm presuming, by the way, that you knew all the above already, but I thought it best to make sure we were on the same page, all understanding common terms (like "Swords are mental")--before continuing the discussion. *In addition, let me add, as a disqualifier, that the above are generally agreed upon observations regarding the tarot--yours may differ. Now--why do you think cups are "mental" instead of emotional?

Mr. Sluagh	31 May 2003
Well, now that I think about it, I guess another reason why I think of Swords as Fire and Wands as Air is because they both represent freedom in one way or another, but the freedom of Swords/Fire I think of a more active, "making a difference" sort of freedom, whereas Wands/Air make me think of a more passive "exploring" sort of freedom. With Wands I picture some Hermit-type wandering around, seeing what he can see with his faithful walking stick, "going where the wind takes him", but with Swords I picture her charging into battle, sword in hand, selflessly defending her ideals and "burning away the unclean". If suites were Indigo Girls songs, Wands would be "Closer to Fine" and Swords would be "Prince of Darkness". What it ultimately boils down to in my mind, though, is that swords and fire hurt more than wands and air. P.S. Crap, did I just use an Indigo Girls metaphor? This board must be getting to me. ;)

HOLMES	31 May 2003
fire needs air in which to burn or it will snuff out. (then agian it needs some sort of material which is earth as well). so one can direct the fire with the air element, control it. in the parts where the fire destroys and purifies it is in conjunction with the air element. that is why michael sword is on fire. it isn't a sword made of fire but the mental imagery of the sword illuminated with the spiritual fire which allows it cut through illusions and to protect against the negative low level forces.

lunalafey	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jema Elements in the tarot is not "real" elements. Fire-cards are not about real fire. The elements are a que, a symbol, a representation of ourselves or an aspect of ourselves. Once we start thinking about wands burning up in fire etc we are taking it too literal. It all ties in pretty well with astrology, the water signs being emotional, the air-signs being mind-driven etc. I'm seeing it symbolically..... just as the elements are symbolic so are the suits, & how do the suits & elements combine themselves, that too is representational of our being. Yet part of our being is individuality, thus logic is person specfic. As for astrology, Aries are fire, they are ruled by Mars & can be aggresive, I see this as a Sword quality. Then there is Aquarius, air, who likes to be free to come & go like the wind.

Kiama	31 May 2003
Great thread Mr.Sluagh! Well, I'll give my opinion too! :D I have always felt comfiest with Swords = Air, Wands = Fire, though I don't actually use elements in my readings anyway, so it doesn't affect the way I use Tarot. The reason why I see Swords as Air, is because I look at the meanings of the Swords cards, and really see very Airy meanings... Ace of Swords: A battle of wits. Seems airy to me! Words and mind, put into battle against other words and minds... It's Philosophy! Two of Swords: Choice. When one makes a choice, one uses the intellect. Airy. Three of Swords: Jealousy, heartache. Jealousy is all in the mind. Airy. Heartache... Tough one, and I suppose it could be seen as both Fire and Air, but to me, the heartache again occurs in the mind: Of course the pain's real, but it is all caused by somebody's perception. (Very tenuous association I know!) Four of Swords: Rest. Often in readings, I see this as resting the mind. Airy. Five of Swords: Now here's where there's Fire! Cheating... Fire possibly, though can we deny that it takes some wit to cheat well? Airy, possibly? Six of Swords: Movement forwards. I've often felt that movement is an airy thing. Seven of Swords: Theft. Oaky, so this one might be fire! Eight of Swords: Feeling tied down. With this card, alot of the 'tied downness' is all in the mind: There is a way to escape, but the person isn't noticing it. Nine of Swords: Mental anguish. I often find that this card points to worry, and the querent blowing things out of all propotion. What better example of the mind, and therefore Air? Ten of Swords: Ruin, despair, backstabbing. Is it perceived ruin, or actual ruin? Certainly it's that feeling of being able to go no lower... Possibly air. It all depends I suppose, on how one views a sword. Many people see the sword as the sword used in a physical battle, and indeed, that would be quite fiery... But I see the sword as representative of the tongue: Both the sword and tongue are double-sided, and both can do just as much damage! And of course, in order to weild a sword properly, one must *Know* how to... Airy. As you said, Mr. Sluagh, there is the freedom element aswell: A sword cuts through problems, giving clarity and freedom. To me, this is an airy thing. Wands on the other hand, as Fire, makes sense to me, because the meanings of the cards in that suit seem to focus of creativity, yearning, desire, spirituality, and sexuality. All very firey things in my eyes. Just my personal opinion though. Kiama

Thirteen	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES so one can direct the fire with the air element, control it. Which to me would indicate Swords, see? Flaming swords aside, swords are a weapon of control. You can certainly hack with them, but they're so much better in the hands of a master fencer--or, better yet, master Samurai. Include other cutting instruments (and I do)--like scapels and knives, and you want to use them carefully and well--like words, like the pens you put to paper. With such words, like air, you can whip up any fire--making it hotter, colder, or out of control. Of course, what fire is really good for is burning things down. For leading a group to that corrupt castle and setting it ablaze--or like lightening, coming down out of the sky and burning it that way. That, to me, is the power of a torch (wood, wand!), not of a sword which can't hold fire after it's become a sword (aka, after it's been fired and tempered). Quote: Originally posted by MR. SLAUGH With Wands I picture some Hermit-type wandering around, seeing what he can see with his faithful walking stick, "going where the wind takes him" Funny, that's just how I picture wands--a Hermit with his WAND ALIGHT WITH FIRE. Illuminating the dark, banishing the cold, setting ablaze fires here and there with his energy and power. It's important that you not forget that when distinguishing between the two. Fire ISN'T just hot, destructive (or purifying) flames--it's also LIGHT. Illuminating the darkness, showing the way. And gentle warmth, keeping homes, well, homey and welcoming. How's that for "passive"? Equal to the wind which blows I think-- Oh, and just how passive (unhurtful?) is that blowing wind of yours when it's a hurricane or tornado? Or blowing so hard and fast that it whip up fires which then burn down forests and cities (words inciting passion, see?). I live where we fear the winds far more than we fear fire. Fire can be put out--but not if the winds are blowing hard and fierce. In the end--SWORDS, impliments of destruction, sharp, steel, brought out for wars and battles (or if you want to include knives, brought out for cutting, amputating, operations--and DEATH)--can never, to me, be emblems of warmth, light, joy, and cooking marshmallows. Wood is the thing you're going to think about for all that. The nice log cabin, the nice camp fire, the smokey fragrance of different woods burning. Even the magical wooden staffs of a Gandalf illuminating the otherwise dark, impenetrable Mines of Moria. And it's for that reason that the wooden wand is, to me, fire. While the sword is cool, cutting air. As for your original metaphor, Mr. Slaugh, remember that in the tarot, BOTH Wands and Swords are aggressive. It's the cups and disks that are passive. And I tend to think of the Indigo Girls song "Galilao" for Swords--all about the mind--and how it can cut you if your not careful, even as it cuts away the lies, and airplanes flying on those winds you mentioned.

rota	31 May 2003
Those are all good illustrations. I think of the four suits in this way, which seems like a good way to clearly understand a reading. Pentacles, representing earth, = stability, possessions = the Physical level Cups, representing water, = emotions, mutability = the Etheric/Astral level Swords, representing air, = intellectuality, discernment = the Mental level Wands, representing fire, = spiritual attainment, talents = the Spiritual/Buddhic level

oceanpoetry	31 May 2003
I read with the Nigel Jackson deck...on this deck the Wands are assigned "Air" and Swords "Fire" - the means of the cards don't differ from traditional RW interpretation, I prefer the association of Air/Wands and Fire/Swords. It seems like a more natural connection, given that Swords are created through the power of fire (smelting metal)...and fire has the power to create or destroy (Swords). For Wands, they are cards of transformation, magic. For Ace of Wands, I imagine holding a magic wand, waving it through the air, manifesting creative energy.

Blue Override	01 Jun 2003
Penis. Penis. Penis. Now that we've said it, what symbol looks like it? A traditional Golden Dawn wand comes the closest. And really, the majority of us deal with a deck that's at least loosely based on Golden Dawn ideas. And what's the phallic/active/masculine energy? FIRE. That settles it for me. Your mileage, as always, may vary.

Hedera	01 Jun 2003
LOL, Blue Override, you are *so* right! 'Thinking' doesn't have much to do with this aspect of the suit, in my experience... :D

oceanpoetry	01 Jun 2003
Blue Override, if you want to draw a Freudian interpretation of the Wands go right ahead! but that doesn't work for me. ah well, interpretations are subjective and there isn't going to be definitive "right answer" on this one.

Kiama	01 Jun 2003
Blue Override: have you seen the Robin WOod Tarot's Ace of Wands? There is this huge wand, and either side of it we see two sunflowers... :D ;) I just thought of something else too: Wands are made of wood, which burn when put in fire. :D Kiama

Umbrae	01 Jun 2003
(Just my opinion folks, so don’t get excited) There is a right and wrong answer to this. If you feel, and know in your heart that Swords are air and wands are fire, than that is correct. If you feel, and know in your heart that Swords are fire and wands are air, than that is correct. If you can’t make up your own mind, or change with the seasons – then you are wrong. My own view: Wands are south. The sun at the meridian is to the south (in the northern hemisphere, where I live), so Wands = South = Sun = Fire. Cups = West = Moon = Emotions and Spirit. Swords = East = Air = Mental Pentacles = North = the cold of the material world.

HOLMES	02 Jun 2003
up here it is north winter, summer south, east would be spring and west would be fall. east cups south wands fall wands. north swords. it all depends on what medicine wheel your learned and are using. :O).

Umbrae	03 Jun 2003
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8278

catti	06 Jun 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Thirteen [b] like the pens you put to paper. With such words, like air, you can whip up any fire--making it hotter, colder, or out of control. the swords/words connection confused me when i first began and eventually i put it together reasoning that the nib of an old fashioned pen is made of metal , also sharp and pointed. The old saying the pen is mightier than the sword gave me an image of both swords fencing and a pen scratching along a paper. Good thread , sure it is an old debate but still interesting

The Wands=Fire and Swords=Air? thread was originally posted on 30 May 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.