bias (???)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

punchinella	21 Sep 2003
Hi everyone. I've just spent about an hour searching for a thread on a topic for which I have no name--except possibly "biasing"??? --The phenomenon of cards telling me what I want to hear . . . rather than something unbiased & truly useful. My question is--well, first--is there an official/commonly understood term for this phenomenon? & secondly (more significantly)--how can I prevent it from happening? --It's really starting to get on my nerves! I read mostly for myself (well--there's simply no one else to read for, sad but true . . . ) & I'm to the point where I don't feel that I can trust anything except the most unwelcome cards . . . & even those, perhaps, are merely reflections of the negativity in my own head . . . WHAT TO DO??? --Is there some way for me to send a message to tarot in the abstract, before shuffling, to get serious & stop mimicking (sp.?) my own hopes/fears? Having used I Ching for years before discovering tarot, I know enough not to expect any information whatsoever about the future . . . the present is good enough for me (it's all I have any rightful business with, at any rate) . . . I'm not looking for more than my fair share of knowledge, nor perhaps for any hard knowledge at all . . . well no, in all honesty that's not true, hard knowledge just makes things so darned easy doesn't it . . . I suppose we all want it, while at the same time (hopefully?)acknowledging that we don't need/shouldn't have & can't really get hold of it anyway. (?) --Above paragraph was a digression perhaps, but still, the question remains: what use is a system of divination that merely serves to throw self back onto self . . . ?? Answer: NOT MUCH . . . How, then, to broaden out/get beyond self . . . & recognize the beyond for what it is, once I get there? Perhaps elimination of mimicry in readings is not the only thing that I'm after . . . perhaps skill at discernment would help too. --How to cultivate it, then?? Thanks for any help at all with this thorny issue--P.

jmd	21 Sep 2003
This is where books may also be helpful, especially if one has a tendency to want to read the cards in particular ways. Two suggestions come to mind. The first is to develop that discernment you talked about, with issues not directly connected with yourself. The second is to broaden the possible ways in which to understand and 'see' a specific card. Firstly Instead of doing readings for yourself, what about doing readings for situations you may have heard about (such as the situation in the Middle East), or the local weather, or even the weather in a different part of the world - which you can then check on the internet. With this, the idea is to develop a narrative of the events (and their background) under consideration, or some of the impact the weather is likely to have (on families, on farming, on industry, etc). To further elucidate, questions could also be quite specifically asked, such as 'what is being omitted from being considered?'; or 'what may help the situation?'. For these, it is probably best not to have clearly pre-formed views on the issues. Secondly What about checking what different authors say those specific cards somehow refer to - and why might they say such a thing? Comparing various other opinions (these is what the books present) may be useful in slowly deepening one's own understanding, or refresh one's fixating views... I may not have answered your question directly, but certainly, these are ways which may assist in slowly allowing the cards to be read not with one's bias, but in what they have to offer.

wavebreaker	21 Sep 2003
In addition to jmd's suggestions, you could post one of the readings you did for yourself in the Your Readings forum and ask other people's take on the reading. That way, you can compare your own interpretation with that of others, who are not personally involved in the issue, and it may show you where and how you are biased in interpreting your own readings.

dadsnook2000	21 Sep 2003
Punchinella, you do have a small problem. Perhaps you could take advantage of a Tarot Software package. The "canned" interpretation could give you a basic set of meanings upon which you could meditate and compare with your reading. I would suggest going to tarot.com where you gan get a free reading from a program that is quite good as software goes. Dave.

punchinella	21 Sep 2003
Hmmn everyone seems to locate the 'bias' in what I read, rather than in what the cards actually say. This is interesting--very interesting! (Of course, I suppose another bigger question might be--is there a difference? Or is this just too solipsistic for words?) I do the book thing now--I use Rachel Pollack, Mary Greer, Brian Williams' book & in the cases where another came w/ the deck, I cross-reference w/ it as well . . . actually, I'm kind of trying to ween myself off book interpretations because they're feeling too limiting (if I read it, it has to be the one & only meaning . . . not good, not good at all . . . ) jmd's first suggestion sounds very helpful though. I'll have to try a reading for something OTHER . . . also, jmd, thank you for the idea of asking what I've failed to consider. This might indeed help. --P.

zorya	21 Sep 2003
is it possible that you are asking the same basic question over and over, or reading too frequently? (excepting daily cards) by waiting 1 to 3 months between readings for self, and keeping a journal of the readings, you could look back and discover what the reading was really trying to say. you would have time to discover the depths of the reading.

punchinella	21 Sep 2003
Hmmn Zorya that's a thought. I'm not doing 'general' spreads frequently at all, but when I have a specific problem I'll do a 3-card spread--or draw one card for each aspect of the problem. Maybe this is just too petty, an overuse of the oracle (hence the confusion). Perhaps I should set established times for readings, & limit myself to that. . . . Only . . . the cards are so infinitely appealing, I want to handle them, to bring them out & to gaze . . . maybe both you & jmd are right, I should try & find something else to do with them . . . P. Oh & Diana--yes, that sounds fun but SCARY indeed (I am actually very, very shy) . . . I'll think about it.

Chronata	21 Sep 2003
I think I understand a little of where you are comming from, punchinella (great name, by the way!) I find it very difficult to use the tarot in readings for myself. Everyone else? no problem...but anytime I turn the cards on myself, I have this sudden tunnel vision...and where I feel I can choose any meaning I want to a card...and not necessarily the appropriate one either. I know what I want to hear...and therefore I am not far enough removed from the situation to be unbiased....(which means I need other tarot readers to tell me what I already know, but won't own up to!) But reading for other people is great! I enjoy helping other people immensely. When I do want to try a reading for myself, I often use oracles, other forms of divination (that are not my own) or decks that are so themey...as to be completely different from the pre-connceptions I have for certain cards...and I can read the accompanying book to tell me the unbiased truth.(that's why both the New Orleans Voodoo and the Osho Zen work well for my personal readings) But you can try reading for other people( I don't think it is as scary here as in a one on one encounter!) You may find that you do enjoy it, and that it is a good way to interact with the tarot!

pan	22 Sep 2003
you are playing with cards with an alphabet printed on them. maybe you should try speaking to your subconscious mind with the language those cards delineate. when the form is truly learned, then it falls away.

punchinella	23 Sep 2003
Whoah pan, my knees have just turned to jelly--P

Bosorka	24 Sep 2003
I don´t know whether this´ll help, Punchinella. I myself found out that I really started to read tarot when I started to do it for other people - mostly by cards that I just didn´t underestand, but they told me "it´s just how it happend, and it makes sence to me". Well, it seems to be hard to find someone who´s not scared to let someone to read cards for, but still you have a friend who´s in love troubles now, or the one of her/his heart doesn´t seem to be interested. This situations are the best for offering reading. (even if they won´t take it seriously) Another way that seems good to me, is take care which feeling I do have from card when I first look at it, what picture or symbol I notice as first, and read it just like children in school before they know letters. "The person on the picture seems to do this, to feel this..." Anyway, still, if I something want to see but really strong, cards would confirm my feelings, never mind what is the truth.

pan	21 Oct 2003
"truth" is a highly subjective thing, esp where tarot is concerned. The "truth" of the meaning of a card is objectively discernable; the reasons for your subconscious mind selecting it may not be. Thats the nature of the game; its not going to tell you the "truth" its going to tell you what it feels is important. "it" being your own subconsious mind; the mammalian meta complex.

Diana	21 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by pan the mammalian meta complex. Even a Google search didn't tell me what a Mammalian Meta Complex is. Would you mind explaining, please?

Nevada	21 Oct 2003
Punchinella, First, I think you've gotten some really terrific suggestions from others here. I've learned a lot from reading this thread. Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Hmmn everyone seems to locate the 'bias' in what I read, rather than in what the cards actually say. This is interesting--very interesting! (Of course, I suppose another bigger question might be--is there a difference? Or is this just too solipsistic for words?) Yes, I think there is a difference. I also read mostly for myself, so maybe it's easier for me to see what you're saying. I too have found that sometimes the cards pulled reflect my mood or worries more than anything else, when what I'm looking for is guidance. Now there are times when the reflection is what I need. But at times I just get a feeling that I'm not getting my question through to the right resource, or something. So here are some more things to try: Get a little distance from the subject. Either by waiting until you feel some distance emotionally, or by getting your mind absorbed in something else. Make sure you carefully center yourself. If you have a spiritual leaning, pray before the reading. And I mean a really centered prayer, not a quick, perfunctory request. Even if it's a daily reading, give it the importance it deserves. It is after all a day of your life! (Some here have suggested drinking a cup of green tea--if there's something similar you like to do to center yourself, try that.) Do some journaling. I'm an avid journaler, and I find that on the days I've done my three pages or so of cathartic journal writing, I'm clearer and more centered. Some people do visual journaling--drawing or painting instead of writing. Just do what it takes to get the garbage out of your system. My final suggestion: If you own more than one deck, when you do your reading, pull the cards from your favorite deck. Then pull *the same cards* out of your other decks. Lay them all out and do a comparison reading. It's possible the cards you're getting are the right ones, but you're not seeing them clearly and this comparison will help you see more. Remember that if you read every day the cards tend to have more subtle meanings than those you pull for the big stuff. Hope this helps, Nevada

pan	21 Oct 2003
how could a batch of tarot readers not know about the mammalian meta complex? try a search "mammalian brain" or "mammalian mind" meta means "beyond" but in this case means thinking about itself...self awareness or self processing. Complex is a funny way of saying "area" or "region" Tarot is the physical representation created by our ancestors of the symbolic imagerial meta code that is used as the primary language throughout the brain. Further, the mammalian meta complex has more direct access to brain regions than either the ego or the reptillian complex, and in essence, reading tarot is thus having a conversation with this aspect of the self. Self concept occurs primarilly in three seperate psychic areas of the brain, these being the reptillian meta complex, the mammalian metacomplex, and the "modern" or "egoic" or "intellectual" metacomplex. Most people will only ever be consciously aware of one of these.

Diana	21 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by pan how could a batch of tarot readers not know about the mammalian meta complex? You mean like a Gaggle of Geese? Or a Flock of Birds? A Batch of Tarot Readers? The best Tarot Reader I have ever met had hardly ever read a book in her life......... completely "uneducated" in the eyes of many. Especially those who had school education and university education (the latter can be such terrible intellectual snobs, not so?) But she never got it wrong.... But perhaps she wasn't a Batch. Just a Tarot Reader. Thank you for your explanation. It is always good to learn something new every day.

pan	21 Oct 2003
in some cases ignorance really is bliss... in the case of a good medium, they don't need much more than the first good "tune in." i suppose you are a single person, not a batch... ummmm...

Umbrae	21 Oct 2003
Reading for yourself is an exercise in personal bias...but that's my opinion. I never got into reading for myself. Now reading for others is where the saw meets the wood. Or where the mammalian meta complex meets the theatre complex. Hey I know…you know what’d be fun? Lets all try to obfuscate our implications by constructing language patterns that complicate our message!

pan	21 Oct 2003
i have an even better idea. lets try to find and use language and truth constructively and meaningfully to convey the information that is genuinely important. umbrae; a christian concept/word form, similar to the collective unconscious eventually abandoned by mainstream christianity. interesting choice. whats your beaf really? thati am talking about things of which you have no clue? bingo.

moonlitpath	21 Oct 2003
Pan: I would imagine his B-E-E-F is the intellectual snobbery in presenting basic Psychology 101 information as if it were part of a doctoral program.

Macavity	21 Oct 2003
I note the CAT seems to have it's mind on practicalities... Dinner maybe? :) The parent site http://baillement.chez.tiscali.fr/ is rather fun too... }) Macavity

nina	22 Oct 2003
Hello, Punchinella, I also would recommend journaling. But I don't know if you can really avoid bias completely. I know I'm a bit of a pessimist, and I do notice in my journal I give a little more weight to darker interpretations, I can even find in my journals those periods when I was in a depression by the stubborn refusal to get anything hopeful out of a spread. I have also encountered this difficulty when doing a reading for somebody I know well. But then there are those times... I don't mean this to sound overly mystical, but the times when I really need the guidance I light a candle hold the deck in my hands with my eyes closed and breathe deeply and slowly until i feel my body is relaxed and my mind is clear (you'd be amazed how long this sometimes takes me) and then I proceed. When I do that, the spread speaks so clearly that I usually find myself journaling it not to help myself understand, but so I don't forget this great reading. And pan, please don't be so touchy. We all tease each other here a little bit, there was no need to bare your claws. I'd like to hear your opinions but if you react like that I'm going to be afraid to respond to them! -nina

punchinella	22 Oct 2003
Wow everybody--this thread seems to have gone on for quite some time without me seeing it--usually I get email alerts. Thanks for a lot of great suggestions (I particularly like Nevada's idea--of pulling cards from additional support decks in order to force myself to see the obvious . . . ) I do always ground & center before reading, & light one or more candles (symbolic--illumination, etc. etc. . . . ) . . . Actually, things have been much better lately. For one thing--I realized that the readings I was feeling most suspicious of tended to come from one particular deck--BW Renaissance--& I have therefore stopped using it. (Actually--the first & only time I ever read for a friend, in person, I used that deck. & she announced immediately the reading was over that it had no meaning because I was not psychic . . . she told me that the cards merely reflected what was in my head, & demanded that we go immediately to a local psychic & pay $40 each for 'real' readings . . . Perhaps her assertion somehow tainted my deck?? --Or, more likely, my relationship with it? --At any rate: I no longer use it, in spite of admiring & feeling attracted to its great beauty. sniff sniff.) I've also given up all hope of getting definite answers to the BIG questions . . . there are a couple of things that just matter too much, & asking tarot about them is . . . well, it just doesn't work, & that's fine. I understand & accept that now. & I've also joined the reading exchange, & read a couple of times for other people. This has been WONDERFUL, I absolutely love doing it (well--apart from feeling drained for several days afterward!) --Reading for other people does feel more solid somehow . . . It's so much simpler, since the plethora of variables normally poking their noses in & demanding consideration, being unknown to me, cannot even hope in this case to intrude . . . I wish I had more 'live' friends here in town though, willing to be experimented on . . . When I read for someone on-line, I don't get to see their face, hear the inflection in their voice as they respond to the reading . . . Ah, well. Perhaps some day. Macavity, thanks for the CAT link. It was most enlightening. --P.

lark	22 Oct 2003
We're a batch? Are we voting? I vote for chocolate chip.

punchinella	22 Oct 2003
No, no, PEANUT BUTTER-chocolate chip.

pan	22 Oct 2003
i think that dream journaling is a very nice and sometimes very useful compliment to reading cards. Things your subconscious mind wouldn't be able to express in the cards can come up in dreams. Journaling and tarot are both ways of creating better communication between the ego self and the subconscious mind.

lark	22 Oct 2003
That was very nicely said pan. Now you can have a cookie.

pan	22 Oct 2003
mmm... thanks

lunalafey	28 Oct 2003
I feel safe in saying that there is no-one who has not wondered if the reading they just did was influenced by "wishful thinking" - was "biased" or " objective"- what ever one wants to call it. There is an 'experiment' of sorts going on in reading exchange to be or not to be looking for someone with a question that they don't think they can 'read properly' for themselves.....and others too......

Star Spirit	31 Oct 2003
Sometimes I feel I am being biased when I read for myself, because I want things to turn out for the better and I feel that I influence the reading that way. Yet I don't do many readings for others *yet* because I'm still developing my skills. Lately my readings have turned out to be quite accurate, except for maybe one aspect I overlooked, which is patience. Generally things do turn out for the best in the end and the readings are correct, but often something will get in the way before that happens, something that I didn't see coming. I'm working on it though.

The bias (???) thread was originally posted on 21 Sep 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.