Do the Swords have a Bad Rap?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| lampdownlow |
16 Oct 2003 |
|
OK, be patient with one so tender in the mysteries on the Tarot...
And keep in mind that my tongue is usually a little in my cheek, even when I am being serious.
The card suits have both positive and negative qualities (and I realize I am oversimplifying a bit). The wands indicate forms of creativity but could also caution loopiness and messy plans. The cups are passionate but can betray sentiment and naivete. The pentacles may show worldy delights or priggishness, practical matters or mundane lack of imagination.
But the swords stand for either mental agility or despair? Why ruin? Why the "dark night of the soul". Why the bluesy wanderings? Wouldn't stupidity be a more likely "opposite"?
Does the Tarot caution that "thinking too much" leads to despair?
|
| cricket |
17 Oct 2003 |
|
Not necessarily. It all depends on how you view it. I look at things a lot differently than most people around here (but don't quote me on that ;) ) when it comes to stuff like this.
To me, pentacles and wands are the 'external' suits. They deal with the world around you. Swords and cups are the 'internal' suits, dealing with the thoughts and feelings inside you. Instead of finding a balance in each individual card, or a balance in each individual suit, the pairs of suits balance each other out. In this case, swords = pessimism, bad thoughts, depression, etc.; cups = optimism, good memories, high spirits, etc.
The good and bad in each card depends on it's place in a spread, the surrounding cards, and the overall intuitive feel of the reading. That's something you'll just have to learn through use.
|
| tepia |
17 Oct 2003 |
|
Hi
I have only been reading for a little while, but I know what you mean about feeling that way about the swords.
Reading written out meanings (for the RWS), I also getting a feeling of a connection between cold hard logic being a bad thing in tarot, associated with problems and that which is masculine. This suit of concepts is presented in a way that is slightly less favorable than the feminine intuition, creativity, and warmth.
I find this unfair because I really love science and logic, and because I like these things, it doesn't mean that I don't also have and tresure my creativity and intuition. Creativity is huge part of science, logic and pure thought. And it also doesn't mean that I can't have a place in my heart to be a tarot reader.
I guess I have be searching for my own meanings, which will be different for me than what I read in books, but the pictures on the cards are sometimes to obvious. Some of the scariest cards are in the swords. I feel like I identify with queen of swords, but she comes off as sort of a ... paradox.
I guess I am ranting a little - sorry! I don't mean to sound harsh. I really like this deck, but these thoughts are bothering me, and I can't resolve them.
Try this - lets say you did a reading for Albert Einstein, very logical, very creative, how would he fit into the archetypes of the tarot? If you every read any of his stuff, he had a very interesting and I would guess fullfilled spiritual life, despite being an incredible physicist. Nothing about his logic is "cold and hard".
Tepia
|
| Kiama |
17 Oct 2003 |
|
I don't see the whole suit of Swords as representing logic and intellect. Instead, I see them as representing the mind and all it'sworkings, and I see the Ace of Swords as representing logic and intellect. The sword on it's own, to me, represents this, so the Court Cards also have this association.
However, with the rest of the Swords cards I see them as looking at different aspects of the human mind, different conditions of the mind. And because the human mind is very much a messy thing the Swords cards show alot of messy things! Mental problems and difficulties mostly, such as the 2 of Swords: the problem od trying to make a difficult decision, or the 9 of Swords: mental anguish and overt worrying over nothing.
So to me the Tarot isn't saying that logic and intellect is bad: indeed, both of those qualities I see exemplified in some of the more positive Swords cards such as the Ace of Swords and Page of Swords. What is is doing is commenting upon the nature of the human mind: and when I say 'mind' I don't mean thought, but our mental processes and mental condition.
Just my take on it: I'm sure there are many other interesting opinions to come!
Kiama
|
| isthmus nekoi |
17 Oct 2003 |
|
In general, the higher the number, the further away you move from the purity of the source - the ace. In the case of the swords, the thinking function has become more complex, convoluted even, more and more threads of contention strain against each other - what was once an exciting discourse succumbs to the friction of difference and breaks down into the abstracted nitpicking of theoreticians.... Of course along the way from a-10, this pattern of synthesis and breakdown arises, but in general, the higher the number, the more difficult it is to achieve synthesis. So yeah. Don't think so hard lol. ^_~
|
| Thirteen |
17 Oct 2003 |
|
Keep in mind that the negitivity of swords--and the more positive aspects of some other suits--are related to the deck. Rider-Waite is a pretty dour deck as decks go. In Thoth--and Tepia this might interest you--Crowley puts a much higher premium on the whole logic/science/mind aspect of the cards and downplays the sickness, insanity, dispair aspect.
He's also much harsher on the emotional suits of cups, come to that.
by Tepia[b] lets say you did a reading for Albert Einstein, very logical, very creative, how would he fit into the archetypes of the tarot? If you every read any of his stuff, he had a very interesting and I would guess fullfilled spiritual life, despite being an incredible physicist. Nothing about his logic is "cold and hard". [[/b]
The mind is a tricky place, and AIR, the element (unless you think it fire which is a whole other discussion), is not something you can hold onto. We can value logic and science, but even in logic and science the mind plays tricks, the caculations go wrong, and you can soar dangerously into things of a philosophical--and imaginary nature.
Think of the movie A BEAUTIFUL MIND. Seeing patterns can lead a man to create and break codes, find the secrets of the universe. But it can also lead us to see things that aren't there. Tesla, a brilliant man, couldn't eat a spoonful of soup without caculating its volume and mass. Einstein could figure out e = mc2, but he also forgot where he lived. And Archimedes was so deeply into his math that he forgot to eat, sleep or bathe. His servants had to push him into a tub, where he would still, obsessively, draw shapes in the dirt and soap suds. Issac Newton was a religious fanatic.
That's the mind for you. Positive yes, but it's not wrong to consider how inconsistent, how slippery and strange it can get as well. Swords cut both ways.
That said, I don't think any human being is purely one thing. None of us is all sword or all cup or all pentacle. We're a mix. And if you feel drawn to the Queen of Swords, that only says that you're closest to her in type--not that you're all her.
Einstein's card would likely be that of Temperance--or as Crowley puts it, "Alchemy." E = mc2 is all about balance, transformation and energy. And I think in personality etc. Einstein had that desire to find the unified field theory, to find the balance--and spriritual center exemplified by Temperance and it's sign, Sagittarius.
|
| zagone |
26 Oct 2003 |
|
Swords are not all about the intellect -- as many have said, it depends on the deck.
I see them as concerning the intellect, violence, and sorrow.
Some decks do concentrate on thinking. Others connect violence with sorrow (the two go hand in hand) and so this suite really varies by artist.
-- Zagone
|
| ihcoyc |
26 Oct 2003 |
|
The problem arises when you attempt to have it both ways:
* Swords are the element "Air;" and
* Swords are violence and sorrow.
Either approach will work, but it strikes me as somewhat harder to mix them, which is what I feel the RWS tradition does.
Neither violence nor sorrow are really at home in the element Air. Violence belongs with fire, and Wands. Sorrow is mostly a Cups and Water business. Conflict exists with Air, but it is verbal, idea-based, and relatively abstract. Physical confrontation is Wands business. There is no "despair" in Swords, only mistakes; but weeping belongs in the realm of water.
Either tradition will work; you can either have the traditional cartomancy "swords are the bad suit," or you can have the elemental attributions. As an air sign, and a rather verbal, mental, abstract person, it strikes me as problematic to try to mix the two; if swords are Air, swords is the benefic suit; the malefic suits are Cups, Wands, and Coins. All of these carry their own brands of misery, but Swords, even at their worst, are "home."
|
| jmd |
26 Oct 2003 |
|
As usual, I find myself in so much agreement with ihcoyc. And as Thirteen brought earlier, part of the difficulty in discussing this - or any other suit - is in determining whether one is discussing the peculiar ways in which illustrations occur in the RWCS or whether the 'purer' or more ambiguous depictions of the Marseille variety are at issue.
One of the determining factors for most of us is which of the four elements the suit is to be associated with. In addition to the common attributions of Air and Fire, Water is also at times allocated to the suit of Swords (as in, for example, the Spanish Esoteric Tarot).
Others and I also mention certain other correspondences in one of the threads linked earlier: Swords-intellect or conflict?.
If one looks at the swords as implements, then they are, foremost, tools of warfare. As smaller implements, they become knives. But this is not the suit.
Of the sword itself, is it the sharpness of the blade which is of import, its making (and the associated metallurgy), or its martial art or usage? These are all questions which will bear on the overall understanding of the suit, and hence each individual card.
If one also thinks about the kind of individuals permitted, in earlier times, to bear swords, one is left with a picture of only those in particular landed political power.
The suits, and the swords, are indeed amongst the more difficult to achieve consistency on. To my way of thinking, I prefer to connect Swords to the element of Fire, and to the passions which may arise as one engages in any activity. Though the sword of judgement may seem to be connected to the intellect, for me it engages after the mind has performed its tasks, and ascend to the next element, in which the intuition of engagement, of Fire, is called forth, and the cutting through of the mind's reflections into the essence of what is at issue is required or performed.
|
| Thirteen |
28 Oct 2003 |
|
Ah, the old "fire" or "air" discussion. Knew we'd wander into that. There've been a ton of discussions on this one, so I won't go too deeply into it, but just to elaborate a little on JMD's excellent point: you can gain insight into interpetations by looking at the sword, itself, and asking, "what elements suits it?" And you might well think from there: King Arthur weapons, used by knights to fight for their honor, weapons of war, etc. and, thus, deduce that swords are: "fire." And so should be interpeted as passion and spirit, temper and heat.
OR you can go in the opposite direction look at the element, Air in this case, meaning words, ideas, the mind, and ask, what symbol suits Air? I tend to go from this direction. I think: One wrong word over the dinner table can sever a family. Words written down in a book can cause wars for thousands of years. The mind slices right through to the truth. We cut people down with words. But we also stand up for them, protect them, and lay down our words in truce. You make your point with words ;)
Which is why I vote Swords for Air. It'd be interesting to see how well water (emotions) suits swords. I've never heard of that element being attatched to them. The whole point of this being that swords require more decisions than perhaps other suits in deciding on how to interpet them. As ihcoyc pointed out, are they going to be science/logic/mind or violence/sorrow? Are they going to be fire or air (or water!)? And you might also ask: am I going to interpet Pentacles as "Health" and Swords as "illness" (which is yet another interpetation of them).
Choices, choices. But then, what do you expect of a suit with a double-sided blade?
|
| firemaiden |
28 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Thirteen
It'd be interesting to see how well water (emotions) suits swords. I've never heard of that element being attatched to them.
The Crystal Tarot (Lo Scarabeo) associates Swords with water. It makes for some breathtaking images of swords cutting through water like a shaft of light. Water, the scrying medium -- emphasises the psychic aspect of mind -- I think of psychic penetration, slicing intuition, lazer sharp insights.
|
| ihcoyc |
28 Oct 2003 |
|
It's a perennial problem: the four classical elements don't really map in an obvious fashion to the four Tarot suits.
That Cups are Water strikes me as the most obvious of the four; but then, even that could be changed. I can imagine excellent arguments that Clubs should be Earth, that Coins should be Air, which would leave Fire for the Swords.
Frankly, I suspect that the four suits were chosen by someone who really was not thinking of the four elements.
|
| Khatruman |
30 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by lampdownlow
Does the Tarot caution that "thinking too much" leads to despair? I most certainly think it can. So many times I have seen examples of brilliant people who fall into a skeptical view of life. They have become so knowledgeable that they become cycnical, despairing and often becoming black holes of energy, sucking in any hope or faith in anything that exist. It is because, of course, things hoped for or ideas that people have faith in cannot be proven by the mind. The mind is logical, seeks empirical evidence. The very nature of faith is that it goes against reason. A man rises from the dead after three days? A man moves a mountain? Stops time? Ascends into a flaming chariot? Then it would stand to reason that one who is deep into reason would dismiss faith. And isn't hope borne from faith in something? Without it, one is left to despair.
Happily, I am not one to become that brilliant!!!! (makes a goofy face)
|
| fairyhedgehog |
30 Oct 2003 |
|
Not sure I agree Khatruman.
Maybe it's because I'm not brilliant enough ;) but although I take a logical view and seek empirical evidence, this hasn't led to despair.
In fact, some beauty can only be appreciated by the mind getting more knowledge. Look at the stars - just seeing their beauty is amazing, but when you think how far away they are and how long the light has travelled from them to reach our eyes, well it is truly awesome.
I think perhaps it is a little knowledge that is a dangerous thing. Much of the truth that myth tells us about isn't, in my view, about factual occurrence but clearly it is important to us. So to dismiss it would be to do away with knowledge, not to get more knowledge.
Of course, my understanding of what myth is about is different from that of someone who accepts it as raw fact - but I don't think that my use of reason puts me in a worse position. Just a different one.
|
| tepia |
30 Oct 2003 |
|
ok then I have a question for all those who think thinking to much leads to dispair
How many times can you count when you know NOT thinking enough and letting your emotions be over powerful is what actually was more of a problem?
I guess the idea is, if there is so much negativity associated with thought and swords, why don't I see equal amounts of negativity with emotions and cups?
For example (an extreme one if that)
You could argue equally well that some one murdered someone because they were in a rage and didn't stop to think of the circumstances and repercusions
OR
that bad (insane) thinking processes lead one to believe it would be ok to commit murder.
And yet, in the RWS cards, you only see that kind of negativity with the swords, at least that is what I think
Faith and wonder can be equally achieved by emotion or intellect ... it really depends on the persons attitude
Tepia
|
| firemaiden |
30 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by tepia
Faith and wonder can be equally achieved by emotion or intellect ... it really depends on the persons attitude
I completely agree. It is artificial to separate them anyway. Who is able to experience emotion without a thought to express it, or a thought without an emotion behind it. Who is capable of experiencing faith without participation of both the heart and the mind?
As a great friend of mine once said, (aka Major Tom) "it all works together, Paula".
|
| Thirteen |
30 Oct 2003 |
|
Well, no you can't usually seperate thought from emotion--what you can do is become more or less emotional. I think internet chats and forums are an excellent example of this. I remember very clearly one discussion I had with a woman. On my side of the computer, I was going through what she'd said and pointing out some inconsistencies, discussing alternatives, making observations--and so were others. I had no real stake in winning or losing the point. I felt, to the contrary, cool, easy, mentally stimulated, able to accept if she was right--if she was--and able to drop the subject once I'd left the forum. I didn't think of it again until I came back to see her response.
Her response was from her husband: she was in tears, horribly upset. She's spent the entire night dwelling sleeplessly on this discussion, and her husband was informing those of us involved that she would NOT be returning to the forum. I was stricken--but also shocked. I went over what I and others had said...and I couldn't figure our how anyone could get emotional over it. But then, I had no idea what buttons I might be pushing, what bad memories I might be dredging up, what event that, to me, seemed a shrug of the shoulder but was, to her, earth shattering.
That ever happen to you? You're arguing a point that really doesn't matter to you, just because, and suddenly, the other person bursts in to tears, or starts yelling, or turns away and says they're hurt and won't be speaking to you? And you don't know what the heck you said that got them so upset? You were sword, they were cup.
But what of Swords and Dispair?
1) Thinking too much: I don't think that the disbelief leads to dispair ("I don't believe he rose from the dead") so much as seeing what everyone else is missing. A person who buys and tosses away paper products into landfills without ever knowing or thinking of the consequences is happier than one who knows all about enviornmentalism, recycles, but dispairs at the loss of forests, etc. Ignorance is bliss. Ever meet with friends who loved a movie that you felt was just stupid. And you picked it apart--only to have them say, "You think too much!" A bad movie is more readily enjoyed by those who can't see how bad it is. And the world is enjoyed by those who don't care about how their actions will affect the rainforests, prisoners in China or the future. Knowledge can lead to dispair.
2) ABSTRACT thinking leading to dispair: another difference between cups and swords on "dispair" is that cups relate to emotional relationships. Someone died, or left you, or hurt you. Anything you see or hear that reminds you of that wounds you again--a photograph, a song, or a thoughtless point made in an arguement.
But with Swords, dispair is in seeking answers that can't be found. Thinkof Enstein searching for the "answer to everything"--a physics problem--but no answer. Think of folk working and working at a math problem they can't solve. THAT's the kind of dispair that Swords bring. You need to solve a problem...but you just can't solve it. That gives you the nightmares in 9/Swords or makes you feel trapped as in 8/Swords. No one has hurt you, no one has died, but you feel dispair of finding an answer all the same.
That, at least, is how I rationalize it.
|
| Khatruman |
31 Oct 2003 |
|
Originally posted by fairyhedgehog
Not sure I agree Khatruman.
... although I take a logical view and seek empirical evidence, this hasn't led to despair.
In fact, some beauty can only be appreciated by the mind getting more knowledge. Look at the stars - just seeing their beauty is amazing, but when you think how far away they are and how long the light has travelled from them to reach our eyes, well it is truly awesome.
I think perhaps it is a little knowledge that is a dangerous thing. Much of the truth that myth tells us about isn't, in my view, about factual occurrence but clearly it is important to us. So to dismiss it would be to do away with knowledge, not to get more knowledge.
Let me clarify my perspective here, since people seem to be taking exception with my expressed views.
First and foremost, the point I attempted to make was that "I most certainly think it can (lead to despair)." The possibility is there for pure reason to lead to despair. I did not say it necessarily will. You say that "In fact, some beauty can only be appreciated by the mind getting more knowledge," and I absolutely agree with that. Note that even in the words "beauty" and "appreciate" you are working on more of an emotional level, rather than a mental level. This is an important consideration. You've tempered pure reason with aesthetic appreciation of beauty. By bringing in that emotional balance, you have subverted that intellectual despair.
I was looking at the suit of swords as the representation of an aspect of human nature, and that was pure mental reason. I still do see the possibility that an imbalance and reliance on reason can indeed lead to despair. The possibility is there: Here is the world. Everything dies. Philosophies contradict each other and there is no ultimate proof of any view of reality. The only purely proven truth is that we will all die. Take those truths without bringing in emotion (love, joy), faith, etc. and it can be quite despairing.
Therefore it is a possibility to look out for. It does not say that when a sword turns up, one should despair, but one should wonder whether perhaps too much reasoning is throwing one off-track. It is what we all do as experienced tarotists. We look at possibilities and potentials. Now if the sword is there alone in a reading full of cups, etc., I wouldn't take much stock in the despairing, but if swords are predominant, it is something to look out for.
|
| tepia |
31 Oct 2003 |
|
Ignorance is NOT bliss... well, at least to me...
"If knowledge can creat problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them."
~Isaac Asimov
Do you know that the study of what is aesthetic is an entrie branch in philisophic study? That I could recommend reading tons of scientific studies about what people think is beautiful? Of course, these are not the only ways to approach what is beautiful, nor would I want it to be. But beauty isn't purely an emotional thing, it can also be intellectual. For many hundreds of years, classical greeks believed that things that were they most beautiful in the world used the golden ratio and had perfect mathematical relationships (you can look this up). You could almost say some of them worshipped numbers.
I don't believe in all of these ideas myself, but the point is that emotion and intellect are two sides of the same coin. There are people that define themselves and their world emotionally, and those that define themselves and their world intellectually. Niether should completely forget the other aspect, and that goes for emotions too.
Beauty is not an emotional thing that saves you from the destruction of pure intellectual thought. I know plenty of people those lose themselves in jealousy, rage, depression and other bad emotional states. I've been there myself. I know that you can also lose yourself in reasoning, misguided reasoning, justifying the means by the ends, over analyzing things, etc, but what do you really see more of?
I know few people that are so intellectual that they have lost emotional grounding. But is see plenty of people justify what they do just because they FEEL that way - without really thinking about it.
Tepia
|
| Thirteen |
31 Oct 2003 |
|
Now don't get in a ruffle over my "Ignorance is bliss" Tepia, I know your bias in favor of the suit of swords. Believe me, I'm as much a brainy geek as you. I watch science programs with joy and excitement, NOVA is my friend and knowledge is certainly a form of "bliss" for me.
But just because ignorance isn't ALWAYS bliss, or knowledge CAN be blissful, doesn't mean that the observation is incorrect. Generally speaking, people don't LIKE having some really stupid beliefs torn apart by reason and logic and intelligent observation. It's a whole lot more fun to believe that if you stop kids from listening to Marilyn Manson music, they won't ever shoot up their schools. Of if your family prays together, they'll stay together. Or if you just put the Ten commandments up in a courtroom or the center of town, people won't commit crimes. OR--and I speak from the state where this happened--if you just get a new action-figure, movie star governer in office, all fiancial problems will vanish and your state will magically be restored to a golden age--just like in the movies.
Makes no logical sense, but solving the REAL problem is a lot harder. Takes work, sacrifices, and several answer not one. Very complicated, and never guaranteed. That's scary. It can make you dispair, fear, worry, fret. Thus, ignorance is bliss. You have an easy answer, and you're sure it will work. You do it, and you feel better, confident that the problem is solved. "Bliss"--born out of ignornace. To know otherwise is to know that you can never be certain. That there is no easy or simple or single solution. Most people don't want to know that.
More to the point, those of us who do know better DO dispair--not only because we know how complicated the real answer is, but because we KNOW what mistakes those who are ignorant are making. And we can't convince them otherwise. Knowledge can be bliss. But it can be nightmarish as well. Cassandra-esque on the nightmare scale.
|
The Do the Swords have a Bad Rap? thread was originally posted on 16 Oct 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
|
