Jung again? The Empress and Emperor....

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

TemperanceAngel	11 Feb 2004
In the RWS deck the Emporer and Empress are quite often thought of as Mother/Father figures, although I don't really relate to this. It is in my un-scholarly opinion that these are Archetypes that Jung manifested.... Am I right? I also say this because one of my family members has been a very Jungian Tarot Consultant for years and they think this about the Emporer/Empress (not always). Did it come from somewhere else before Jung? As I know nothing really about the Marseilles, does that deck think the same about these cards being the Mother/Father figure/archetypes? Edited in to add that it is the Papess in the Marseille that is the Mother? Excuse my ignorance please... Maybe this isn't in the right Forum, can someone please change it if they think it should be somewhere else :) xTAx

Phoenyx*	11 Feb 2004
Well, in the Sacred Circle deck, the Emperor and Empress are the Lord and the Lady. The Lady is quite obviously pregnant, and the Lord holds a staff in a forest (phallic symbol? ;) ). If the Lady isn't a Mother now, she certainly will be soon! And I bet that it was the Lord that got her that way! ;)

Rusty Neon	11 Feb 2004
(1) For Jungian archetypes and Tarot, you may find the 3-part article by Rosengarten useful. He also has a book. There you can see what Jungian archetypes he assigns to the various major arcana including High Priestess, Empress and Emperor. http://www.artrosengarten.com/lexicon3.htm (2) Modern-day scholars of the Tarot de Marseille in France do employ Jungian concepts and archetypes to the Tarot de Marseille. Whether or not to incorporate archetypes into the TdM is, however, up to the individual card reader.

TemperanceAngel	11 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Triquetra Well, in the Sacred Circle deck, the Emperor and Empress are the Lord and the Lady. The Lady is quite obviously pregnant, and the Lord holds a staff in a forest (phallic symbol? ;) ). If the Lady isn't a Mother now, she certainly will be soon! And I bet that it was the Lord that got her that way! ;) Yes, but where did the idea come from that the Empress should be pregnant? And perhaps she is not giving birth to a child, instead to an idea or thought... So maybe it wasn't the Lord who got her pregnant. Maybe she manifested her own birth...oh dear I am starting to make The Empress look like the Virgin Mary }) I would see the Empress actively manifesting a seed (thought/idea/plan), so therefore being very masculine :) Rusty thanks for the link, I will look over it. xTAx

Phoenyx*	11 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel I would see the Empress actively manifesting a seed (thought/idea/plan), so therefore being very masculine :) I wouldn't consider labour as being a very inactive or passive way to manifest, or push forth life. Pregnancy itself may be a "passive" way of taking the seed and nurturing it. Also, what just occured to me, is that a leader of a group, like an Emperor or Empress (President/Chancellor, etc) can have a very parental image. The head of the household is the parent (usually the father if he is present), he/she "leads" the group (family in this case).

TemperanceAngel	11 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Triquetra I wouldn't consider labour as being a very inactive or passive way to manifest, or push forth life. But I wasn't talking about labour, nope never mentioned it ;) I don't look at the Empress as being pregnant with a child, but more with the creation of ideas :) xTAx

Kiama	12 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel But I wasn't talking about labour , nope never mentioned it ;) I don't look at the Empress as being pregnant with a child , but more with the creation of ideas :) xTAx Yep, me too. Though I do see the symbol of her being pregnant with a child as illustrative of being pregnant with ideas, potential, projects, etc. How else do you get across such a concept in a picture? Kiama

Keslynn	12 Feb 2004
Kris Hadar (www.krishadar.com) has a very interesting take on the Empress card. His description makes her more indicative of structured ideas and the birth of them. It's much less about fertiliy and family. In my opinion, this makes more sense for the Empress and makes her a more equal mate to the Emperor. :) Kes

Imagemaker	12 Feb 2004
Quote: I would see the Empress actively manifesting a seed (thought/idea/plan), so therefore being very masculine :) There's a LOT of labor (for both genders) in "actively manifesting a seed" of any kind :) The male and/or female of any organization often has parental type roles in leading, reprimanding, organizing, recruiting, and "birthing" ideas. And some members relate to the leaders as children relate to parents in looking to them for solutions. I see a lot of mother and father elements in the Empress and Emperor totally unrelated to the reproductive process :)

Diana	12 Feb 2004
As Kris Hadar comes from a Marseille tradition, his take on the Empress is the same (give or take a few details) as all people who follow this old tradition. The Empress teaches us DISCERNMENT. She's the most intellectual of all the Major Arcana. She is Number III. Think about what a three means... Also, why is she an Empress in the Tarot and not a Queen? Has anyone ever wondered about this? There's a big difference between an Empress and a Queen and an Emperor and a King. The fertility of the Tarot belongs to the Papess. She is number two. And she has a veil. Veil in greek means "hymen". The Bateleur needs to pass through her to be reborn. I could go on for at least 10 pages. But that would not be quite right for a forum......

isthmus nekoi	12 Feb 2004
TemperanceAngel, the notion of having God the Mother and God the Father is pretty common. If you are asking where Jung found these archetypes, it would probably be from his extensive experience working w/unconscious material (such as dreams) in his practice. It is also a cross cultural concept and can be found in various religions and myths. I would advise critical evaluation in accepting those who have pinned Jungian archetypes to the card imagery (oh, yeah, this card is the animus). Archetypes are more dynamic than that.

Keslynn	12 Feb 2004
Diana, I was completely blown away by this definition of the Empress, and I also really like the extra details that you added in just those few sentences. This explanation of the Empress made the card make so much more sense to me. I never really understood all the fertility emphasis when the Priestess seemed to be doing the same sort of thing. Please feel free to go on. I am very interested in the nuances of this card in the Marseille system. :) Kes

TemperanceAngel	12 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Empress teaches us DISCERNMENT. The fertility of the Tarot belongs to the Papess. She is number two. And she has a veil. Veil in greek means "hymen". The Bateleur needs to pass through her to be reborn. I don't think I ever thought about this consciously until Diana mentioned it the other day, but I see The Magician as the seed and the High Priestess where the seed gets planted, so therefore I have my masculine and feminine, perhaps even Mother and Father archetypes. It was only yesterday in this thread I thought about the Empress being masculine, I am really enjoying these masculine and feminine discussions :D isthmus, do you mean the Empress and Emporer are that notion? I am a little confused by your post, can you elaborate for me? xTAx

isthmus nekoi	12 Feb 2004
I think the Empress and Emperor can be read as god the mother/father, but not necessarily so. I think the archetypes of god as mother/father are too complex to pin to any one image. And yes, Diana, please go on!

TemperanceAngel	13 Feb 2004
It interests me in my original thread about masculine and feminine that I placed the Empress with feminine (I think), but when I really thought about it I decided otherwise! So when I get a chance to sit properly againg and go through my list I think I will probably change my ideas ;) or ideals ;) xTAx

Moongold	13 Feb 2004
Lots of ideas in this spread . :) I have always thought of the Emperor as merely being Masculine. Along with the Magician, Sun, Hermit, and Hierophant, this image is often in Jungian terms seen to represent the Masculine. But there are different interpretations of this, too. We can't help using archetypes because they are so present in our consciousness but how and whether we use them is surely dependent on the particular context or reading. Sometimes I have seen Emperor being used simply as a metaphor for control; sometimes, authority; sometimes self-control. The Tarot of the Sephiroth, one of my favourite decks, sees Empress as being nature, love, creation, abundant opportunity - but definitely feminine. If you want to use those concepts.... that is :) It doesn't mean, as you have said elsewhere, that men cannot show qualities that are often seen as feminine. I like the characteristic Diana gives for the Marseilles Empress. It seems that (perhaps) the Marseilles doesn't get stuck in gender, which would be a good thing. Moongold

TemperanceAngel	15 Feb 2004
I don't think any deck gets stuck in gender, we have placed gender to the cards. That's why I asked the question about Jung being resposible for this process... I also don't see why it was the Empress and Emporer that were assigned Mother/Father and the God aspect of this as well? Oh well I will keep looking into it XTAX

Moongold	15 Feb 2004
Temperance ~ Why not try to get these two books. They might answer these questions to your satisfaction. GADD, I Tarot and Individuation. Nicholas Hays, 1994. NICHOLS, Sally. Jung and Tarot. Weiser, 1980 Moongold

isthmus nekoi	15 Feb 2004
Jung being responsible for gender associations?....... If you don't mind me asking, responsible in what way?

HOLMES	15 Feb 2004
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14243 regarding the emperess being pregant, i don't think she is in the waite deck and so it was a recent addition in the last 50 years (unless she is shown so in the historical decks i do not know :O). it is the people who have taken the jungian concepts and applied to the tarot , hence robert wang made the jungian tarot , but jung didnt' make it. the interpation then depends on the individual who is steeped into the tarot but also their philosphy or psychology of love. example i am sure , someone will make the jospeph campbell tarot, based on his work in mythology. just as people have done the recent dion fortune tarot which is based on her work on the qabbalah applied to the tarot. i would reccomend besides the recomendation mades by moongold, tarot symbolism if you can find it, it is quite an interesting read and full of tidbits of pearls of wisdom. (it is due to get republished in the 2005) for jungian and tarot , robert wang also has a book out called jungian tarot and its archtypal imagery which someone is sending me, here is the link. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0971559112/ref=nosim/aeclectic/ edited to add, from the review on amazon "Wang is of the opinion that to rapidly skim across ancient concepts of, for example, a mother goddess, is to consider the various faces of the Mother archetype represented in tarot as The Empress. And, again, the main reason for making such a comparison is to determine if the "true" nature of an archetype is revealed by those areas where far-removed cultures have deities with similar qualities. In this regard, the earliest mythologies seem to be the most useful. " edited to further add, new book on tarot archtypes out , http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1883991579/ref=nosim/aeclectic/

TemperanceAngel	15 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Jung being responsible for gender associations?....... If you don't mind me asking, responsible in what way? From my original post, I asked about the Jung archetypes, that was my question :D I did say please excuse my unscholarly and ignorant state :laugh: I don't think the question was answered, probably because it was a silly one (well, obviously it was...) XTAX I meant in the way of the Empress/Emporer being called the mother/father archetypes, was Jung responsible for that or did it come from elsewhere? Perhaps I did not explain myself in my first post properly...

TemperanceAngel	15 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold GADD, I Tarot and Individuation. Nicholas Hays, 1994. NICHOLS, Sally. Jung and Tarot. Weiser, 1980 Jung and Tarot I have picked up over the years, but it does nothing for me, I will have a look at the other one, thanks :) HOLMES: Thanks for your response, very informative! XTAX

isthmus nekoi	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel From my original post, I asked about the Jung archetypes, that was my question :D I did say please excuse my unscholarly and ignorant state :laugh: I don't think the question was answered, probably because it was a silly one (well, obviously it was...) XTAX I meant in the way of the Empress/Emporer being called the mother/father archetypes, was Jung responsible for that or did it come from elsewhere? Perhaps I did not explain myself in my first post properly... Oh dear, no I don't think anyone found your question silly! To answer it plainly, it's a no. Jung never said that the Emperor/Empress were representative of Mother/Father archetypes. He also did not create the Mother/Father archetype, however, as far as I know he did create the theory of archetypes. In other words, you could say the greek philosophers did not create atoms themselves, but they did create the atomic theory!

TemperanceAngel	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Oh dear, no I don't think anyone found your question silly! To answer it plainly, it's a no. Jung never said that the Emperor/Empress were representative of Mother/Father archetypes. He also did not create the Mother/Father archetype, however, as far as I know he did create the theory of archetypes. In other words, you could say the greek philosophers did not create atoms themselves, but they did create the atomic theory! Isthmus THANK YOU :* XTAX

isthmus nekoi	17 Feb 2004
Glad you got that cleared up and glad to be of help :)

The Jung again? The Empress and Emperor.... thread was originally posted on 11 Feb 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.