Chariot Cancer?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Ariana |
21 Mar 2004 |
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I don't know if this question was already asked before, if it has sorry...
I was wondering what does Cancer has to do with the Chariot?
It's the only major in which I cannot see the connection.
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| jmd |
21 Mar 2004 |
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In many ways... nothing whatsoever.
The astrological associations made by the Golden Dawn are based on assumed Hebrew letter associations, and it is these latter which are in turn associated with planetary attributions in such texts as the Sefer Yetzirah.
Of the various astrological associations, Cancer is often associated with the Moon card.
However, there is also a sense in which the Chariot, as each and every single card, may be seen through specific aspects of, int he case of this discussion, the sign of Cancer.
Like Cancer, the Charioteer is 'encased' within the protective enclosure of his 'shell', and has two out-lying pincers (or horses or, with Levi as exemplified in the RWCS, sphinx-like creatures).
Also, one may view the Chariot as not so much as in movement, but rather as immersed in the world, and victorious within his own domain (home).
Not only does the Charioteer enclose himself within the protective chariot, but is himself protected with further carapace-like armour...
Certainly may, as other cards too, be connected in thought with aspects of Cancer...
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| Ariana |
22 Mar 2004 |
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I should have said that I asked about the Chariot in Marseilles.
Or is it not cancer in this deck?
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| jmd |
22 Mar 2004 |
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Now that's an interesting question indeed, Ariana...
Does your source provide additional correlations? For example, to what do they connect the Emperor to? This may provide background as to the reason as to why certain connections may have been made by whomever you are reading or discussing it with, though suspect, given that you have already mentioned the Chariot and Cancer, that it is ultimately a Golden Dawn sourced derivative, and as such, the clear discussion linked by Thirteen may best answer this.
The Golden Dawn, in its early days, did use the Marseilles, upon which their preferred attributions (such as Cancer with the Chariot) were linked.
Of course, with regards to the Marseilles imagery per se, there is nothing, to my knowledge, which gives reason to symbolically make the connection. Rather, one may as easily link it to Gemini or to Libra... or even to Sagittarius!
It would be interesting to know, again, your source, and again note that the 'reasons' for the Cancer connection may be those of the Golden Dawn's.
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| TemperanceAngel |
22 Mar 2004 |
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I am not sure if this helps, but being a Cancer I have found the lesson of the Chariot (or one of them) to be 'emotional detachment'. Now as a Cancerian this isn't the easiest task.
That's how I have learned to join the two together, or at least that's the major point, there are lots of smaller reasons as well....
XTAX
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| Ariana |
22 Mar 2004 |
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Well my source is not an especific one but various in internet. All information provided seems to be based on RWS and not in Marseilles. I read Marseille, I know to read RWS as well, but for me Marseille is THE root TAROT for all the rest. It is my favourite one and the one I feel my comfortable reading with.
Now, I should re phrase my question then to "Cand I relate major arcanas in Marseille to same astrological symbols?"
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| TemperanceAngel |
22 Mar 2004 |
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Ariana,
You should post your question in the History and Iconography section, you will get lots of help and responses in there!
XTAX
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| Phoenix Rising |
22 Mar 2004 |
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I see the charioteer directing that chariot without physical action, but with his intention or will. So if directing by his will, the wheels of motion would not move if he didn't have the emotional intent. It is our strong emotion or desire that creates the outcome. So the moon ruling his emotional body would surely make the tide flow within.
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| jmd |
23 Mar 2004 |
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With specific regards to Ariana's last question, viz, 'Can't I relate major arcanas in Marseille to the same astrological symbols [as the rwcs]?', then the answer is twofold.
In one sense, you certainly may correlate the same astrological signs to the ones made with the Waite/Colman Smith, or indeed to the CH Thoth, or to the many different correlations which various authors have also made.
My question would be why you would want to attempt to correlate certain astrological signs or planetary forces to specific cards. If you answer by describing how the individual correlations you want to make seem to fit, then fine. If, however, the answer given is simply something along the lines that others do it, then I would hold the correlation back.
If one compares the Marseilles depictions with various other mediaeval imagery, then only a few appear to 'match' or correlate astrologically. Of these, the Moon and Cancer, the Sun and Gemini, and the Star and Aquarius are probably the only three cards which fit.
Justice is usually depicted quite differently to Libra (though they each have scales), and the card clearly depicts Justice, not Libra. Leo would certainly not have its pride at the hands of a human (whether man or woman), and the Chariot has no apparent astrological correlation.
This does not mean that many people have not sought to 'find' correlations - and some seem to work better than others, but there is much disagreement as to which correlations 'works' best.
For myself, I prefer to hold back the correlations, and allow various ones to emerge in reflection or reading.
Of course, if you wish to follow the ones popularised from the Golden Dawn by especially the (Rider)/Waite/Colman Smith, then you will be able to find much written material as to how and 'why' this may be made to work.
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| jmd |
23 Mar 2004 |
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PS.
If you wish to comment or add to the thread on the Chariot in the more Marseille focussed History and Iconography section, you are more than welcome!
:):):)
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| Ariana |
23 Mar 2004 |
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Originally posted by jmd
My question would be why you would want to attempt to correlate certain astrological signs or planetary forces to specific cards. If you answer by describing how the individual correlations you want to make seem to fit, then fine. If, however, the answer given is simply something along the lines that others do it, then I would hold the correlation back.
Well sometimes I find useful to correlate major arcanas to planet or signs energy. I have some knowledge about it, and this is an added value to the reading. Something like a complement.
But anyway I don't feel the same with all the major arcanas, this may happen with the High Priestess, The Emperor, Justice, etc.
That's why Chariot / Cancer was not so obvious to me.
tks jmd for your comments :)
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| kwaw |
24 Mar 2004 |
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In kabbalisitic terms the Sun is a symbol of God as transcendant, the Moon a symbol of God as immanent.
The immanent or indwelling spirit of God is called the Shekinah. In kabbalistic prayers the Shekinah is asked to dwell in the body of the kabbalist, who then exists as the chariot of the Shekinah. The chariot then is a symbol of the body as a home [dwelling place] and vehicle of the Shekinah, the indwelling spirit of God, as Cancer is the 'home' of the Moon [symbol of the shekinah].
Kwaw
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| Kissa |
24 Mar 2004 |
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I too have great difficulties to associate the Chariot to the Cancer sign. I haven't read jmd's posts as i wanted to reply fast (CSI beginning in 3mn...) but i'm sure they'll help me understand better (i'll have my mind on CSI mode when i'm back here).
I found that Flash Silvermoon (www.flashsilvermoon.com) has renamed and reassigned planets and signs to the trumps in her Wise Woman tarot. Her seventh trump is "Gorgon/Medusa" and she assigned it the Gemini sign, which makes far more sense to me so far. Here is what she says about this card: "The Gorgon is ruled by the dual mental sign Gemini. Geminis often seem to be pulled in two directions by dissonant thought forms. The Gorgon's ability to focus the mind is a positive solution to this problem: use the power of the mind, do not be used by it."
Diane Wilkes wrote a (no so flattering) review of the deck on her Tarot Passages and you can see the reassignements there as well as some cards and their meanings on flash's site.
My two cents,
Kissa
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The Chariot Cancer? thread was originally posted on 21 Mar 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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