Intuitive Reading vs. Card Meanings

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 May 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Satori	24 May 2004
Who is in a better position to read for YOU? Readers who know those card keywords cold, and don't have a clue how to intuit the more subtle energetic influences? Readers who are intuitive and etheric but wouldn't know a 5 of swords from a six of swords even if stabbed in the back? Or a mix of the two? Do traditional card meanings matter or is the impression you get as you turn each card what really counts? Please let me know how you balance intuition and the study/usage of card meanings in your readings! Thank you!

Nitewindz	24 May 2004
I've seen readers who don't "know" the cards provide excellent readings, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I suspect they are drawing more from their psychic abilities and less from the Tarot. I say this because I had a friend who steadfastly insisted on relying only on her feelings as she turned each card over. Her interpretations of spreads were often vastly different from the others in our group, and often the least accurate. Many decks deviate from the traditional Tarot structure and/or meanings. So I think a good reader considers the meaning assigned to cards within a particular deck as well as traditional associations. The assigned meanings and traditional associations help put the symbolism and intuitive flashes into proper perspective. That said, I have to confess that I avoid using the traditional physical attributes assigned to the trump cards, that is, I don't automatically assume the Queen of Cups is a blue-eyed, blonde female. Instead, I use the universal human charactaristics assigned to this card to find the person it represents. The Queen of Cups is a follower, so if there's a major player in the scene who is a follower by nature, I associate that person, male or female, with Queen of Cups. So I think the meanings, either traditional or assigned by the deck creator, are essential in order to correctly interpret the symbolism and flashes of intuition, unless the reader happens to posses unusually good psychic skills.

Sulis	24 May 2004
For me, a mixture of the 2 works best. I know that that's how I read myself. For me, and I think for most people each card has a multitude of meanings. Sometimes when I look at a card in relation to a specific question a meaning will just pop into my head - there usually is some link to the traditional meaning but sometimes it's just some aspect of the card or one particular image which has caught my eye. I think to get rid of traditional meanings entirely one would have to have a very strong psychic gift - I've not - I read the pictures, numbers and symbols on the cards. Love Sulis xx

Khatruman	25 May 2004
My impression also involves a blend of the two: study and intuition. However, I feel that intuition should be top priority. My best readings happen when I dispense with looking at a book (and I have NEVER tried to memorize "meanings"), and go with what I "see". I believe knowledge of card meanings comes in learning and study of tarot. The whole goal is to develop and intuitive sense, and that comes through study. It is as I try to teach my high school students. They, of course, want to memorize things, spit it back to me in a test, then be done with it. Any teacher who learns Bloom's Taxonomy knows that memorization is the lowest level of learning. It doesn't go deep. Rattling off card meanings doesn't necessarily mean one understands what is going on. There is a tendency to be too reliant on meanings and blinding oneself to what one "sees" presented before him/her. Your intuitive voice may see something simple in the picture on the card, but too much of a reliance on established meanings might trigger the brain to say, "NO, silly that card means...." and thus stifling the intuitive sense. I realize that my best readings happen when I internally tell myself that my "feelings" about the reading take top priority. What I find is that I call forth meanings, knowledge, etc. from my studies that corroborate what my intuition has already understood. However, if I go to the reverse, turn the cards and tell myself to remember what meanings each card has, or worse yet go straight to the books, my reading comes out distanced and not living. Do I make sense?

Satori	25 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman My impression also involves a blend of the two: study and intuition. However, I feel that intuition should be top priority. My best readings happen when I dispense with looking at a book (and I have NEVER tried to memorize "meanings"), and go with what I "see". I believe knowledge of card meanings comes in learning and study of tarot. The whole goal is to develop and intuitive sense, and that comes through study. Well, I am a little confused by what you are saying... I do study the meanings, and I also go with my impressions. I feel that most times even if at first it seems not to tie in with the "card meaning" I eventually understand the connection. But I find that there must be a certain energetic vibration or blueprint that occupies space in the Universal Mind or whatever it is named, that is each tarot card. Which is why I think there is so much consensus about what certain cards mean. The tarot scholars I've seen on this site certainly study the cards intensely. And this is partly what I came back to Aeclectic to find, the serious study and inquiry into the cards. But I'm not sure how, once you've really internalized a card meaning, and its history, how you then ignore that, and think it isn't coming into play in the reading.... I suppose that is the beauty and mystery of the tarot, but I think something else is emerging that I haven't yet seen the tarot scholars discuss and would be interested to see dialog about. People are devising new decks with new symbology, names etc. But more and more card readers today seem increasingly interested in doing readings the intuitive way. From years of people concentrating on a certain personalities for an archetype how do you find anything new? Or based on the evolutionary needs of us as a culture are we seeing new archetypes emerging, for better or worse? Let's face it, we are evolving. Reading about children today and the Indigo Children phenomenon shows something is happening. I wonder if tarot is evolving as well. The evidence seems to be around us. The creation of so many decks, intuitive readers, medical intuitives, energy healers...all leading us .... where? I'm not sure the answers are to be found historically. From what I understand tarot was a card game, the divinatory aspect seems to be agreed upon by scholars as coming in later...

contrascarpe	25 May 2004
I agree with the general concensus about combined readings. I had always been obsessed with "learning" the cards. In that respect, I am glad I was because I believe it is important to know these meanings. Personally, my best readings are almost totally intuitive. I find myself getting lost in the cards and a story emerges. Sometimes when I am stuck, I go back to typical card meanings, and that usually unblocks me. What I really dislike are decks with keywords printed on them, even though some of my favorite decks (Rohrig comes to mind) have them. I usually ignore those as well, but dread the inevitable client who will tell me "but that's not what the card SAYS", lol. Dan

Khatruman	25 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by elf Well, I am a little confused by what you are saying... I do study the meanings, and I also go with my impressions. I feel that most times even if at first it seems not to tie in with the "card meaning" I eventually understand the connection. But I find that there must be a certain energetic vibration or blueprint that occupies space in the Universal Mind or whatever it is named, that is each tarot card. Which is why I think there is so much consensus about what certain cards mean. I agree with you there, that there is an archetypal energy in each card's energy. I think what I am trying to say is that, in order to most effectively tap into that energy, a good reader ought to go at it more intuitively, rather than to go at it from a set of memorized meanings. When you say that you "go with your impressions", you are talking about going on your instinct first, then finding that you "eventually understand the connection." What if you went the other way? If you saw a card and immediately tried to recall the set of meanings that you had memorized. Would you have gotten the connected impressions that weren't apparent at first? I think you might not, since your left brain would be kicking in immediately and sorting out what is "correct" and what is "not correct" according to established meanings. That is why I am saying that instinct should be first priority. A good instinct comes from studying something deeply enough that you can synthesize it deep within your mind and find instinctive connections you may not realize. The instinctive mind is more susceptible to making connections to disparate knowledge than the logical mind.

firemaiden	25 May 2004
Some would argue that "instinct" or "intuition" is what you get after you have internalized the meanings, and have been working with them for so long that you make split second decisions without noticing it. In this case, "intuition" is nothing more than analytical process computed at lightning speed. Where does "intuition" come from? If a person does not know the standard meanings, or if they chose to ignore them, chances are, they are reading the image itself. This is what I like to do with the cards. I like to call it "intuitive image reading" - it is not necessarily a "tarot" reading, purists might argue. What I find amazing, is even if I totally disregard the known meaning of the card, and go with the image, eventually, if I go deep enough, it will come out to somehow exemplify the stated meaning of the card anyway.

contrascarpe	25 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden In this case, "intuition" is nothing more than analytical process computed at lightning speed. I agree wholeheartedly with this. When I am in my "zone", I find my mind opened up, totally uncluttered, and the analytical process takes a form of its own. Probably the only times my thinking is purely clear.

Satori	25 May 2004
[quote]Originally posted by firemaiden [b]Some would argue that "instinct" or "intuition" is what you get after you have internalized the meanings, and have been working with them for so long that you make split second decisions without noticing it. This resonates with me. The peril in it tho, is that it denies on some level the idea that there is any psychic activity happening. The interesting part of this is that ultimately, while I think we all have the ability to be psychic, I think that for me (and probably many on these boards!), my psychic ability is still being nurtured, and I wouldn't be comfortable calling myself a psychic card reader. Besides, that smacks a little too much of the stereotype, and I hope this is not offending anyone. "In this case, "intuition" is nothing more than analytical process computed at lightning speed." I'm glad you said in this case...are there others? "This is what I like to do with the cards. I like to call it "intuitive image reading" - it is not necessarily a "tarot" reading, purists might argue. " This jumped out at me. Now what would the purists call it? What do the "purists" say is a tarot card reading? Something about this idea makes me slightly uncomfortable. Who is it that gets to say what is or isn't a real tarot card reading? Ultimately, at any given moment, you synthesize the cards and read them to the best of your ability. Every experience, thought, and shred of information currently at your disposal at that particular moment goes into the reading. And this is beyond card meaning study, this is life experience. (This is not to say that a 40 yr old is a better reader than a 20 year old, but I have to say, that in terms of myself, I'm a better reader now than even a few months ago.) Now, if the cards I've been turning and reading for the last 10 years haven't been real tarot readings I really want to know what to call them.

Khatruman	25 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden What I find amazing, is even if I totally disregard the known meaning of the card, and go with the image, eventually, if I go deep enough, it will come out to somehow exemplify the stated meaning of the card anyway. Since the use of intuition is such a deep process, how do you really know that you are "disregarding" the known meaning of the card? The fact that you are aware of that meaning makes it difficult to truly disregard it entirely. I do take exception with the phrasing of "nothing more than" analytical processes. I think there is something profoundly deep in the analytical mind: the sum of experiences not consciously considered but nonethess stored, plus the trace wisdom of humanity before us. I think there is something deeply mystical about this.

yve	25 May 2004
I too feel that it is a balance, a combination of suggested traditional meanings and intuition....Rather the intuition is extrapolated from the suggested meanings to give depth and individuality to the reading.

Mimers	25 May 2004
I really like this ponderance. I never really thought about what the 'correct' way to read was. What I do when I read most closely resembles what Khat described. I do know all the meanings of the cards. I have also been studying numerology, meanings of colors, symbolism and things of that nature to add to my readings. I have never actually 'memorized' the meanings of the cards, however. I have read about them, and found that there was no need for me to memorize, because the pictures brought the meanings out for me. When I read, I lay down the cards, and before I tap into my knowledge base, I see how the cards make me feel. I take note of what symbolisms stand out to me in that particular reading, and I take note of any superflurious information that pops into my head. After this, I think about the knowledge I have read about and put it together. I give priority or more importance to those first gut reactions rather than to the established meanings of the cards. I use both knowledge and intuition, with the intuition taking precidence over the knowledge. I find this blends together and is usually very helpful to the person I am reading for. I don't consider myself psychic, but I believe that we all are and the first step towards uncovering this is trusting it when it comes. Sometimes the cards come into the reading to be a catalyst for our intuition, not necessarily for their established meanings. Did I make sence? :) Mimi

Sillanza	28 May 2004
I spent a lot of time studying the meanings and symbolism of the cards (I wanted to get it "right"), but I find my best readings occur when I simply look at the cards and accept whatever first impression hits me. Sometimes it's a traditional one, sometimes not. Sometimes the overall spread has such an obvious theme that I wonder why I bothered with all the study. I also dislike decks with "keywords" printed on them, and like another poster, I rarely use my Rhorig deck when reading for others for this very reason. I don't trust myself to remember every single impression of every card I've ever drawn, so I do consult my notes and books, especially if I feel a particular card has a message that I'm not getting. Often, this reference helps me eliminate what the card isn't telling me this time and helps to formulate what it is.

firemaiden	28 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman [b] Since the use of intuition is such a deep process, how do you really know that you are "disregarding" the known meaning of the card? The fact that you are aware of that meaning makes it difficult to truly disregard it entirely. Well, lets say, looking at the image without reference to the proposed meaning. But the image carries the meaning in most cases very profoundly, so you can travel wildly far out, (example: Nine of Swords rx - Thoth = nine dancing chile peppers...) but chances are it will relate somehow to the point of the card. Quote: I do take exception with the phrasing of "nothing more than" analytical processes. I think there is something profoundly deep in the analytical mind: the sum of experiences not consciously considered but nonethess stored, plus the trace wisdom of humanity before us. I think there is something deeply mystical about this. The "nothing more" is not to put down analytical processes. Far from it. It is a way of saying that I do not believe "intuition" is a separate faculty**. I agree entirely that the analytical mind is very deep. I think "intuition" is a word we use when we see the lighning fast result of the analytical process, which, as you say, includes "the sum of experiences not consciously considered but nonethess stored, plus the trace wisdom of humanity before us." and "sometiming deeply mystical"-- **edited to say: this position modified in the next post...

firemaiden	28 May 2004
Quote: FM: Some would argue that "instinct" or "intuition" is what you get after you have internalized the meanings, and have been working with them for so long that you make split second decisions without noticing it. Elf: I'm glad you said in this case...are there others? FM: Well, now you have me thinking. I would say that the kind of flashes that occur to one, irrespective of the card in front - those sudden flashes of vision upon the radar screen are something else entirely. I do not begin to understand what being pychic is, but the faculty to connect to others remotely, through telepathy, or sharing/sending/receiving energies etc, is definitely a kind of magic beyond the analytic mind! Quote: FM: "This is what I like to do with the cards. I like to call it "intuitive image reading" - it is not necessarily a "tarot" reading, purists might argue. " Elf: This jumped out at me. Now what would the purists call it? What do the "purists" say is a tarot card reading? Something about this idea makes me slightly uncomfortable. Who is it that gets to say what is or isn't a real tarot card reading? FM: Ah, well, I'm not exactly sure, I said "might" but then again, they might not... We'll have to ask the purists... Purists? Where are you?? Now we are getting into treacherous waters, this would be an interesting subject for a contentious thread. The word tarot has many meanings to many people. Just as the word "music" has many meanings to many people. Perhaps the reading ceases to be purely a "tarot reading", when the cards themselves are not tarot cards, or when they are not read as tarot cards?

Satori	28 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden FM: FM: Ah, well, I'm not exactly sure, I said "might" but then again, they might not... We'll have to ask the purists... Purists? Where are you?? Now we are getting into treacherous waters, this would be an interesting subject for a contentious thread. The word tarot has many meanings to many people. Just as the word "music" has many meanings to many people. Perhaps the reading ceases to be purely a "tarot reading", when the cards themselves are not tarot cards, or when they are not read as tarot cards? Definitions...okay, well, let the purists come! Light the candles, the purists are coming, the purists are coming! Okay, I feel better now. Well, I agree and disagree with that last bit. Because Tarot is Tarot. I believe however, that Oracles are everywhere! (Sounds like a Fanny Dooley riddle: Fanny Dooley loves Tarot but hates cards! Fanny Dooley loves Tarot but hates Oracles.) Isn't that what we are all trying to do? Get to a point in our spiritual development where the crutch (cards, stones, bones, steaming entrails) are no longer needed? When the mind just receives the messages, be it by intuition or a process we have not yet named, and the need to sit with cards is just not necessary? When life becomes Oracular? So that the swastika spray painted on the side of a building resonates with its ancient meaning as you drive by it on the way to work; and you know that while the artist meant it to be evil you understand the real identity of that symbol, and you bless it and are blessed by it? Or the pattern of acorns strewn across the sidewalk in the park, some nibbled and cracked others whole and untouched and you stand looking at this natural mosaic and realize it is the rune Uruz, and you again are blessed, and step away absorbed by the essence of Uruz. Or in the office your co-worker is ranting to the woman in the next cubicle, the keyboards are tap-tapping and the air processing unit clicks into action and the cacophany of sound becomes a symphony and for a moment you are caught up in the pulse and essence of commerce and you see through the window a pigeon on a rooftop amid other pigeons and the sound of the office and the dance and coo of the pigeons merge until they are one and the same thing and the meaning of it is not something you can share so you just live in the moment? (I got a little carried away for a moment. Of course in my life as a stay at home Mom I'm still looking for the Oracular in all of those poopy diapers, and believe me if I see something in there I'll post my address at the hospital!!! LOL) If I was making a point I think I left it in the park next to the acorns...may post again later if I find it....

firemaiden	28 May 2004
Claudia have you met my friend, Umbrae?

Satori	28 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Claudia have you met my friend, Umbrae? No, I cannot say as I've had the pleasure.....

prk001	29 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mimers I give priority or more importance to those first gut reactions rather than to the established meanings of the cards. I agree with that. Thats the only way I can read. Quote: I use both knowledge and intuition, with the intuition taking precidence over the knowledge. I find this blends together and is usually very helpful to the person I am reading for. I don't consider myself psychic, but I believe that we all are and the first step towards uncovering this is trusting it when it comes. Sometimes the cards come into the reading to be a catalyst for our intuition, not necessarily for their established meanings. I think we all are intuitive, but our doubts about it & the belief that we are not at all intuitive blocks it. I feel knowledge & intuition works best, because we know that we have some knowledge of the cards & that belief is helping us get rid of doubts & access the intuitive part. We know that we have some knowledge of cards so we can give a fairly good reading but most of us dont have the same belief in our intuitive capabilities. I think if one believes truly in his/her intuitve capabilities, he/she can give great readings even without knowing the standard meanings of cards. Very few believe in it & it works really well for them. We make them the exceptions & call them psychics. Its just the faith that you can access the information that will help you access it. Tarot is a great tool that open the doors of your intuitive sense more easily with all the architypal pictures & symbols. RK

Umbrae	29 May 2004
We were dining in that Greek place in the U-District when Laurel said, “Tarot is divination with training wheels. The Rider-Waite adds the helmet and body pads.” Back when I was doing corporate education, the buzzwords at the time in the Adult Ed field were ‘Consciously Unconscious’ (where a person knows they cannot ‘do’ a process; ‘Consciously Conscience’ (where they know how to do the process, but must think about it); and ‘Unconscious Consciousness’, where the process is completed in an almost Zen state, unthinking. These terms in this usage may vary from Jung and Freud’s usages. Most instructors, caught up in the unconscious consciousness state, have difficulty remembering when they were in the prior stages – and fail to progress the student through all three stages. Students are stuck in the consciously unconscious, or the consciously conscience…and never progress. When you are reading tarot, and thinking about our thinking – thinking about meanings…it is difficult to be open to that awareness that is what we were seeking in the first place. It’s so much easier to become a parrot – and blather out key words and ‘meanings’. Years later, when we no longer have to think about meanings (because we memorized them all?) – maybe we can learn to listen to the spaces between the cards. But the real question is…how do we kick start that process? Soul Cards are a good start. But you want to stay away from study groups…it matters not what somebody else thinks they see in the cards – what matters is what you see in the cards. With oracle cards, cards should not have the same meanings at each reading. It’s like when you read raindrops, or spent .45 shell casings, or entrails – there are no meanings…. So you have to be really quiet…and listen really well. Somebody once asked about Osteomancy…how do you read bones? What do the bones mean? It’s different…each and every time…because they have no meanings. Until you listen…and the language begins to form – and the language becomes words… Language provides meaning.

tmgrl2	30 May 2004
See, elf....firemaiden calls upon Umbrae and he appears... Thank you all. I think we all often ponder on the process from time to time. I am new to Tarot...Just yesterday, I happened upon an old book of mine, from the 1980's when I was reading using color and handwritings....It wasn't a book about anything religious or psychic. Out fell my notes that I took when I worked with my psychic mentor. It was notes on color meanings. Back then, he was so mystical to me and everything we did and I learned seemed so ...so...I don't know "not logical, " "intuitive"...Then I glanced down at the 10 questions/positions we used for readings. It was a Celtic Cross! Anyhow...at the time, I trusted myself more...I knew something about graphology and something about my friend's use of color. Then I let it all go for years..Now Tarot came along this year. I find, for me, I choose to study the history and traditions ...and I am using two basic decks...RW and Tarot de Marseille....At first, I looked up meanings in multiple resources and I still do that when I participate in a discussion about a card or cards.. But the best advice I got here was to ....read intuitively, using the Tarot images in the positions of a spread I choose. Since I have been reading so much here and at home and posting about meaings, certainly some of that has been internalized and comes forward, but when I read live, which I just started doing more frequently...if I get very quiet and into a relaxed "listening" mode, I do hear things other than those that I studied or learned. I believe all of the elements of the process are a flow, from the cosmic to my quieted listening self focused on the cards and the question, the the creative piece of who I am that turns what comes to me into words and messages and, as the reading goes along, comes together in some sort of cohesive overall spiritual guidance or philosophy... I have been reading Meditations on the Tarot (by Anonymous...translated by Powell)....so far, what I am reading there resonates with my own internal beliefs.... Quote: For the whole human being is at one and the same time a mystic, a gnostic, a magician and a philospher, i.e., he is religious, contemplative, artistic and intelligent. Everyone believes in something, understands something, is capable of something and thinks something. This fourth "sense" Quote: aspires to the synthesis of the diverse planes of the macrocosm and the microcosm. To me, if I am just operating on one or two of these planes, my use of Tarot is not complete. Recently, when I read, and really go to my calm and silent place first, the rest of it flows...and what I say isn't necessarily what I learned for these cards. My Valet D'Epee this week came up with a meaning I didn't "learn" but afterwards as I reflected, it did still suit the nature of that card in that position for that person. As Diana and firemaiden and Umbrae and many others here have helped me to understand, I need to trust what the images are saying to me...and speak for them. I believe, also, that the reading I got this past weekend at a psychic fair was a good "psychic reading" but not necessarily a Tarot reading. That's ok. I have no clue how she used the cards. What matters in the end is the experience and what we have gained from it. For me, I choose to use the Tarot cards as my channel. At the end of the "string" from the cosmic to us....as Umbrae just said Quote: Language provides meaning.

Vincent	01 Jun 2004
*****

Satori	01 Jun 2004
So nice to meet you Vincent. I am in the middle of my morning routine with my two girls and may be called away abruptly, however I promise that if this happens I will finish my response later. I began reading the article and decided that it was ridiculous, especially when I got to the discourse with Satan. Perhaps this is your point? You find intuitive tarotists ridiculous so you respond with the aforementioned article. I had hoped for more. I come into the conversation having read some research, done by skeptics, under my belt. Having read studies (scientifically done I might add) about the efficacy of intuition, only to find it fails almost every time, intuition does that is. Intuition, like many people, doesn't test well. So, perhaps we see a phenomenon or we find that intuition is bogus? Perhaps like the effect we see in physics, that just by observing a thing we change a thing? I would like to see some posts about the accuracy of readings done without intuition, just by reading and interpreting the symbols. But I must say that even when you, stalwart representative of purists, say here it is, symbols only, I will have to hold my hand up and point out that humans can't help but use a certain amount of intuition, gut feeling, opinion. Even your use of symbol sets is just that, your use of symbols, your interpretation, your experience and understanding coming thru. Even if you have a rich, philosophical depth to your understanding of the roots of tarot, and you don't apply any of yourself to the interpretation, you are just parroting whatever it is you have learned to this point. Is that tarot? Is that what it was meant to be? A dry recitation of definitions? So this begs the question that you seem to be implying, who is the better reader? The academic or the intuitive? (And to say that intuitives delight in their ignorance is really not fair is it?) I agree with firemaiden, I think it was she, forgive me if I misquote, when I say I think it is somewhere in between. It is study combined with personal experience, and that is what I see here on the forum, people using both. As for the definition of purist, I leave that to you. I dare not tamper with your definition of yourself, but you have provided us all with a starting point, and that of course lies in Egypt. I'm sorry that a mistake was made there, but was he a tarotist? Or was he a bit of an egotist and trying to be dramatic during his moment in the sun? And, I think, and I'm not expert on this, but isn't there a difference between language and symbology? Please don't feel required to answer that, I'm checking into it myself, rather than be labeled ignorant. And finally, can you honestly say when you read the tarot you never go with your gut? never? Not even when you may not know all of the meanings attached to say, a gryphon? Do you ever use intuition Vincent? Are you even aware if you do or don't? I would have to say that you do use intuition, you just aren't aware of it, or as you say, you define it differently. Thank you for chiming in on the discussion, it has been interesting if not enlightening.

tmgrl2	01 Jun 2004
and is their a synapse between faith and reason that we just can't see (yet?) or measure (yet?) and maybe never will... terri

Satori	01 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 I believe all of the elements of the process are a flow, from the cosmic to my quieted listening self focused on the cards and the question, the the creative piece of who I am that turns what comes to me into words and messages and, as the reading goes along, comes together in some sort of cohesive overall spiritual guidance or philosophy... As Diana and firemaiden and Umbrae and many others here have helped me to understand, I need to trust what the images are saying to me...and speak for them. At the end of the "string" from the cosmic to us....as Umbrae just said I want to tell you tmgirl2 (whenever I read your posts I'm thinking tommygirl, don't know why) that what you wrote above is really beautiful. In those few words you have described the process that seems indescribable. To me, however you come to the place where the cards and their images interact with the essential core of yourself whether you be an academic, intuitive, bumbling idiot or saint, does not matter. Who am I to judge how you get your information from the tarot? I'm not into arguing about who is right or a better reader or who may claim to be a real reader and who may not, and I really had no idea I was hitting a hot button. I just want to read the tarot, learn about its history and origins, and improve my skills. Thanks girl for your thoughtful sharing of how guidance comes to you. I'm sure many people out there benefited from your sharing.

tmgrl2	01 Jun 2004
Thank you ,elf, for your kind response....I love to read all of the discussions that give history and theory ...and sometimes I attempt to participate....but I see that as a piece of the process of using the Tarot.. But when I read....I believe that all parts of the process must be working together for the end result, the words, the message, the guidance to be spoken...and no matter how much studying I do, it always comes out differently when I read ....some is from my memory of what I have learned, but then, all of a sudden things start to flow and I find I have to say something about a card, that according to my "learnings" wouldn't be "right." But I say it, because it's what I get in that reading.... And I really do believe that there is faith and there is reason and that while we may draw ever more closely to understanding the unknowable, the unknowable can still be believable and true without empirical proof. In all fairness to the quote you gave of my words in the last post, it was a summary or paraphrase in my own words of some of my recent readings in Meditations on the Tarot. The book is touching me deeply and snippets of it have been internalized for me. It resonates with my own spiritual beliefs...and I believe that for Tarot to "work" when we read, we need to have all pieces of the process going on. I am beginning to trust this as I do more live readings. They aren't perfect, but they are happening and I love doing them....without expectation that the Q will like or agree with what I say. terri

Vincent	02 Jun 2004
*****

Satori	02 Jun 2004
Dear Nice Guy, Okay, a truce for now. There is much to consider in your response. I appreciate your position and yes, we invoked you, so I must at least thank you for appearing. And I will revisit the website you offer, although I admit I'm not excited to go look again.... I wonder, in terms of evolution, in terms of the changes in society and the needs of society, if perhaps Tarot as most, many, quite a few practice it now, is it perhaps the way it should be done? For so many to be grabbing hold of Tarot and finding that it works for them why are you so adamantly sure that they are the ones stumbling in the dark? Maybe you are missing the point too? And please, Vincent, I'm not looking for the easy way out. I'm not shirking my many years of study that allows me to join the discussion. You are right, I'm new to the forum and new to many of the old arguements. But, But, But....... But have you ever tried to practice the Tarot without your seatbelt? Ever tried to accept the imagery that comes through with out your defintions? Just try it.... (LOL, I feel a little like the proverbial snake offering the apple to Eve here....c'mon honey, take a bite....) I imagine it must happen, stray thoughts bubble up through all of your KNOWLEDGE, what then, what do you do with it? DO you get free form images welling up? I have more to comment on but children await....

Nitewindz	02 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Soul Cards are a good start. But you want to stay away from study groups…it matters not what somebody else thinks they see in the cards – what matters is what you see in the cards. With oracle cards, cards should not have the same meanings at each reading. I disagree. I first learned Tarot along with two other friends. We studied together about once a month. We did readings for each other, took notes on the spreads (what cards appeared where) and on our interpretations. At the next meeting, we reviewed the previous spreads and interpretations and how they fit or did not fit *what actually came to pass*. Comparing my interpretations with their interpretations, and comparing both to *what actually came to pass* helped me a lot. It helped me "see" more in the symbolism, and to sort out what was vaild "sixth sense" wisdom from what was not (I call what was not "general psychic noise"). I think the biggest key, for me anyway, was comparing the interpretations to *what actually came to pass*. Of course, you don't need a study group to do regular readings for yourself, take detailed notes, and compare those notes to *what actually comes to pass*, but I personally enjoyed sharing and hearing other opinions on my spreads, and the practice of reading for the others.

jmd	02 Jun 2004
I might pick up from an earlier comment made by elf as an entry into this thread, where it is written 'I'm not sure how, once you've really internalized a card meaning, and its history, how you then ignore that, and think it isn't coming into play in the reading' I can of course only talk for myself, but will use, as an introductory example, the 'reading' of Egyptian hieroglyphics earlier mentioned by Vincent. Certainly, following the deciphering of the Rosetta stone, and the many advances which have been made since that time, a person reading hieroglyphs will need to take into account its usage as, for example, semi-alphabetic (or its imagery standing for sounds). This is one level of study and reading. Which of course remains important. Where some Egyptologists also lose out, however, are on the non-'literal' reflections which are also legitimately made of the imagery used. That Kircher undoubtedly made numerous errors, in both his understanding of Kabalah and in his interpretation of Hieroglyphs, doesn't imply that the method used is inappropriate. Ideally, the four ways of reading, familiar at the times of Tarot's emergence in the middle ages, and earlier within Jewish exegesis, is legitimate. It is here that study and the more literal meaning forms but part of the background to using the cards in the course of a reading. We may have various understanding as to what intuition is and how it works, but generally would tend to agree that, for example, the engineer who is working on the design of a new gearing system, or the mathematician seeking a proof of the value of the difference of squares, or the chemist seeking to establish the form of a particular compound, or the philosopher seeking to ascertain whether a particular crown does have the gold its seller claims it contains, or the artist or architect seeking to embrace the required parts which have to be incorporated in a project, may indeed suddenly have a moment of illumined solution to the problem, a 'sudden' expression EUREKA!. This, however and why-ever it works, we may more or less agree to call examples of 'intuition'. In the reflection on Tarot, there are many sites far more instructive and useful than the one linked by Vincent. A browse through the Historical and Marseille section of the Forums will reveal numerous such links - whether they be to Huck's, to MJHurst's, to R O'Neill's, or indeed to many others' work I will undoubtedly omit if I begin to try to list them all. These are the more useful sites, in my personal opinion! But to return to the opening quote I give from elf and give a specific example... I may know of the connections between, for example, the King of Coins, the Mamluk decks of the 13th and 14th century, and the 'World' map drawn in Majorca in 1375 which bears the four suit emblems, with the southern quarter being the location of pressed gold. I may also have heard that in early French playing card history, each of the Kings was given a name after a famous King of former times. I may also read that many people describe particular suit court figures as having particular characteristics, and, indeed, I may even have worked out a personal system (or used somebody else's) or correlation between the court cards and astrology, element, or Tree of Life positioning, or even MBTI. Now, though all this may indeed form part of the background 'knowledge' of the card in question in the reading at hand, the knowledge also has to be transcended, and understanding and wisdom into the situation at hand allowed to unveil. This is the inspiration which needs to be 'listened' to, the intuition working itself into the reader's own particular and immediate situation. Here, it may be that what becomes of significance is none of the previously held knowledge of the card, but the particular look on the face of the King in the specific card of the specific deck being used in the specific reading at hand. His stern and paternalistic glance is then needed to be understood in the context of the other surrounding cards. For this, the background information and historical research into the cards may come to the fore, ...or not. Likewise, the reflective meditations which Kircher may have allowed, and his imagination to enrich, in unveiling an aspect of the depiction of the hieroglyphs, may yet reveal much which is of worth in the exegesis of the text in question - a method perhaps scorned in certain quarters, to their loss.

tmgrl2	02 Jun 2004
Wonderful post, jmd.... As a newcomer to Tarot..I grapple with my love of learning about the iconology and the history...but the more I read, the more I find that a few "gems" of knowledge resonate with my own internal spiritual self. And, to this, I must be true when I read, or I feel I shouldn't be reading at all. So, for now, perhaps my readings may focus on elements or images or numerology ....or not...but what comes to me when I quietly meditate on the question and the cards and the spread, with an honest heart and good intent, is my best for now. I will continue to explore my studies as well and I know there will be some expansion of my inner reading "well, " but I'm not sure I will be a better reader because of these studies or because of my added experience and practice or all of these things. This is my path in Tarot and it does include certain studies because I so choose. We all have our own styles in all we do in life and to try to separate out parts of ourselves that are intrinsic or to force an aspect of study that isn't, just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I have always loved studying and learning and, at 61, don't plan on stopping soon. But I choose what I study and explore and sort and keep and discard as I go along. terri

Vincent	02 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by elf I wonder, in terms of evolution, in terms of the changes in society and the needs of society, if perhaps Tarot as most, many, quite a few practice it now, is it perhaps the way it should be done? For so many to be grabbing hold of Tarot and finding that it works for them why are you so adamantly sure that they are the ones stumbling in the dark? Maybe you are missing the point too? I'm not sure they are stumbling in the dark. I am only raising the sort of criticism that could be levelled against them. These are questions that they must answer for themselves. Quote: Originally posted by elf But have you ever tried to practice the Tarot without your seatbelt? Ever tried to accept the imagery that comes through with out your defintions? Just try it.... (LOL, I feel a little like the proverbial snake offering the apple to Eve here....c'mon honey, take a bite....) Why would anyone need Tarot cards to do that? Why not look at cloud shapes, or stare into the embers, or gaze at the patterns left behind by tea-leaves... why Tarot cards? Also, why is it that most people who use this method prefer to use cards that actually have images on the minors, as in the Waite deck, rather than a deck that uses pips, as in the TdM? Imagine a client asked a question about the Waite deck you had spread before them; "what is the name of that angel on the Judgment card?" "who are those men falling from that Tower?" "why is there an 'M' on the Ace of Cups?" How many Tarot readers, unaware of the answers, would tell their clients the truth... that they didn't know? These questions have specific answers, they can't be guessed and they cannot be intuited, they must be researched. Quote: Originally posted by elf I imagine it must happen, stray thoughts bubble up through all of your KNOWLEDGE, what then, what do you do with it? DO you get free form images welling up? Sometimes, but then I squash them with the heel of my shiny jackboot. Vincent

Satori	02 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Here, it may be that what becomes of significance is none of the previously held knowledge of the card, but the particular look on the face of the King in the specific card of the specific deck being used in the specific reading at hand. His stern and paternalistic glance is then needed to be understood in the context of the other surrounding cards. For this, the background information and historical research into the cards may come to the fore, ...or not. Thank you for the serious response jmd. It bears noting that if I understand what you are saying then while those of us who may not be students of tarot history/iconography etc., and warehousing bits of anecdotal and historical detail in our minds, are then perhaps connecting to the cards more viscerally and hitting the mark thru a more emotional or visual and empathetic way. The problem would then be, that unless one were using a deck based closely on the original historical forms, the internalization of pictures would be on symbols less connected to what the original framers of tarot were using and more on the potentially diluted, and misconstrued picture/symbol sets of well meaning and creative modern people. Having said this, and really not seeing it as a problem, because, in my naievete it is my belief that the resilience of the tarot to respond positively to multiple users regardless of their educational backgrounds, I still wonder whether we are seeing an evolutionary shift in either the tarot or humankind. That said I am particularly interested in the point at which historically tarot became more esoteric and less a card game. From what I understand it was the wealthy who were commissioning decks and at what point did these beautiful bits of paper go from being a fun game to pass the time to a divinitory tool, and a means by which to transcend the boundaries of flesh and allow one to acquire the Secrets of Universal Truth and Mystery? It would seem to me that whatever is behind the tarot, the Mind if you will of Tarot that it would not want to sink into obscurity leaving us all in the dark. It is my trust, shall I go so far as to say my Faith in this Force that allows me to think that when I sit at my oak table and light my candle, a cup of tea by my elbow, a cloth spread across the pitted surface and begin the meditative shuffling of my cards, that I am indeed Doing something more than fooling myself into thinking that I am about to play the sacred game of tarot. And so while I do not know much about the androgeny of the image of the World card (I have taken a peek at the Marseille forum) and whether or not it was a Christ image, I know that there is triumph, and victory, and a sense of completion to the card. I feel the balance of what it means to be poised on tiptoe holding laurels and batons and to be surrounded by passion and learning and to feel what it might mean to be divine. And so I hold all of that in my heart and when it comes time for me to speak it is with reverence and a prayer that for a moment I might not be a stay at home Mom, with dishes to do and laundry to do and a child who will wake me at 6am regardless of how late I sat up with a tarot deck, that I might not be all of that, but be something other, something divine, or shall I say, at the least, inspired.

Vincent	03 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd . We may have various understanding as to what intuition is and how it works, but generally would tend to agree that, for example, the engineer who is working on the design of a new gearing system, or the mathematician seeking a proof of the value of the difference of squares, or the chemist seeking to establish the form of a particular compound, or the philosopher seeking to ascertain whether a particular crown does have the gold its seller claims it contains, or the artist or architect seeking to embrace the required parts which have to be incorporated in a project, may indeed suddenly have a moment of illumined solution to the problem, a 'sudden' expression EUREKA! . This, however and why-ever it works, we may more or less agree to call examples of 'intuition'. Good examples. It is worth noting that all of them are already well grounded in their professions before that flash of intuition sparks. That is, the mathematician is not trying to intuit the meaning of a plus sign, the chemist is not urged to believe that only a non-intuitive robot would think of NaCl as salt. Quote: Originally posted by jmd . In the reflection on Tarot, there are many sites far more instructive and useful than the one linked by Vincent. A browse through the Historical and Marseille section of the Forums will reveal numerous such links - whether they be to Huck's, to MJHurst's, to R O'Neill's, or indeed to many others' work I will undoubtedly omit if I begin to try to list them all. These are the more useful sites, in my personal opinion! They may be more useful and instructive for the sake of "reflection on Tarot", (whatever that may mean), but are they more useful and instructive for illustrating the nature of the rift between those readers who advocate an 'intuitive' approach and those who advocate research into the symbolism? I don't think so. And after all, that was the reason the link was given. But, if you are willing to give a link that better illustrates this conflict, and is a better example of the criticisms that 'intuitive' readers face, I am always willing to revise my views. Do you have such a link? Quote: Originally posted by jmd . Likewise, the reflective meditations which Kircher may have allowed, and his imagination to enrich, in unveiling an aspect of the depiction of the hieroglyphs, may yet reveal much which is of worth in the exegesis of the text in question - a method perhaps scorned in certain quarters, to their loss. Now that is an interesting claim. How, exactly, do you know that Kircher was indulging in "reflective meditations"? Kircher claimed to be able to read hieroglyphics, he may have even believed that he could, but the fact is... he couldn't. And the reason he couldn't was because he had no idea what the symbols meant. He wasn't meditating reflectively, he claimed he was translating. And, when you say Kircher's mistranslation "may yet reveal much which is of worth", can we expect this revelation anytime soon? Personally, I consider not knowing what the symbols mean to be somewhat of a hindrance to the translation of Ancient Egyptian, but then again I am not an expert in the field. Vincent

jmd	03 Jun 2004
With regards to finding appropriate discussions on the nature of Intuition, I cannot, as yet, find one better than a non-Tarot discussion, as outlined in Steiner's Occult Science: an Outline (also re-translated as An Outline of Esoteric Science), especially chapter five. I suppose I found, for myself, the link to J. Karlin's site un-instructive in specific reference to this thread, and rather of a tone which mocks more than instructs. That could just be, of course, a reflection of what I personally find either assists or hinders learning... others may be quite different. The link I give above, of course, talks of Intuition and of its development - not of an assumed 'rift' between intuitive readers and those who begin from a study of the specific possible symbolism incorporated within specific decks. As a matter of personal opinion, I see the two - 'intuitive' and 'symbolic study' - as very much complementing one the other. Here is where I also mentioned, as example, Kircher, and mention the meditative reflections he MAY have allowed. The 'simple' reason I mention this is from a more general reflection on human nature and his own specific interests: how may he have derived the suggested meanings given the lost art of reading the Hieroglyphs? perhaps - actually, I'll state it in stronger terms - undoubtedly through careful and meticulous study of the observed imagery, his rather 'flawed' background knowledge, and his own imaginative faculty (perhaps supplemented by discussions with others of like mind). To 'translate' from the unknown to a meaningful narrative, as is done also in a Tarot reading, requires, above all, trust, integrity, reverance and humility. Trust in the meaningfulness of the unfolding narrative, integrity in speaking what one senses, reverance towards to mysterium with which one is faced, and humility before the spiritual endeavour one is engaged in. Some may of course not see it this way.

Satori	03 Jun 2004
I have to agree with you jmd. Thank you for the link...will check it out.

Satori	03 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent Sometimes, but then I squash them with the heel of my shiny jackboot. Hmmm...this last bit causes me some sadness for you Vincent, even though I think you are again jesting. I see the last comment as sad because you are trying to kill your own inner self. So my inner knowing asks what are you so fearful of that you would want to squash a message from the very sanctum of your inner mind? You are on the verge of a transformative moment if you could find a way to allow your own perceptions and yes, intuition to assist you. This is troubling Vincent, and with compassion I ask you to revisit this stance and to put away those shiny boots. You have a deep reservoir of inner knowledge that wants very badly to aid you in so many ways. Really, there is nothing to fear, nothing will come up that is harmful. And if you have reason to think there might be things that will terrify or that you aren't prepared to face, perhaps you have a friend or therapist who will assist you. I wish you the best on your journey. Namaste,

Vincent	03 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by elf Hmmm...this last bit causes me some sadness for you Vincent, even though I think you are again jesting. What causes some sadness for me, is that you are not sure if it was a joke or not. Vincent

Vincent	03 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd . I suppose I found, for myself, the link to J. Karlin's site un- instructive in specific reference to this thread, I'm glad you mentioned something specific. This thread is titled Intuitive Reading vs Card Meanings and it might be instructive to read the original post; "Who is in a better position to read for YOU? Readers who know those card keywords cold, and don't have a clue how to intuit the more subtle energetic influences? Readers who are intuitive and etheric but wouldn't know a 5 of swords from a six of swords even if stabbed in the back? Or a mix of the two? Do traditional card meanings matter or is the impression you get as you turn each card what really counts? Please let me know how you balance intuition and the study/usage of card meanings in your readings! Thank you!" Halfway through the thread, some posters asked for an opposing view of the 'intuitive' side, and I supplied what I considered the best example of that opposing view. So it is a little surprising that you don't see that example of such an extreme opposing view, as instructive. Especially when you can't provide a better example. Of course, some people don't like the idea of balance in a discussion, and present their arguments with the expectation of having their views reinforced, rather than challenged, which my intuition tells me is probably not the most constructive aid for any sort of progression. But then again, as we have seen, intuition can be wrong. Quote: Originally posted by jmd . The link I give above, of course, talks of Intuition and of its development - not of an assumed 'rift' between intuitive readers and those who begin from a study of the specific possible symbolism incorporated within specific decks. You mean the "assumed rift'", that the original poster called Intuitive Reading vs Card Meanings ? The "assumed 'rift'" that Elf then went on to describe in detail? Quote: Originally posted by jmd . As a matter of personal opinion, I see the two - 'intuitive' and 'symbolic study' - as very much complementing one the other. Then in answer to Elf's original question, we probably do not disagree very much, despite what you think I might believe. It's getting a little tiring explaining the difference between the messenger and the message. Quote: Originally posted by jmd . Here is where I also mentioned, as example, Kircher, and mention the meditative reflections he MAY have allowed. I see. He MAY have allowed 'meditative reflections' (for which there is no evidence for, and much against), and these reflections MAY "yet reveal much which is of worth" at some indeterminate time in the future (although there is no evidence to suggest that this is ever likely to occur). Well, I suppose I will have to concede the point. That MAY happen. Vincent

Satori	03 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent What causes some sadness for me, is that you are not sure if it was a joke or not. Vincent I am chuckling now Vincent. I believe that firemaiden was spot on when she said that this thread would create some contentious discussion. I wonder if that was her intuition speaking..... Now, I believe we were getting the responses I asked for in the original post. So far consensus seems to lean toward a mix of both, study balanced by the brain's own natural ability to synthesize information and allow multiple influences (creativity, psychic ability, instinct, race memory-whatever you call it) to participate in the process. (Of course I haven't really tabulated the responses......) And you know I just can't help but wonder why nobody has answered one of the questions, which is what kind of reader do you as a tarotist want to read for you. The debate has centered around the idea of intuitive vs. academic. That was one of the questions I asked, but was not the first or even most important question. And I started this thread because I admit that I have been mostly an intuitive who knows the basics of the card meanings that I've read in books or read by authors of the decks I have chosen. I don't know the history of tarot all that well, and I'm not sure I need to know it. But here I am, looking into it. I have to say that jmd is to be applauded for answering my questions the way a leader or teacher would. And I'm not trying to pump up jmd's ego, its just that you Vincent did send me to a very irritating website and I think you did it to irritate me more than instruct me. I believe jmd also said something similar to this in his post. I also want to thank umbrae for his input, well thought out and very lucid and not at all facetious or sarcastic and leaving me to wonder what he really meant by his words. Instead he chose to illustrate why your own pathway into the oracular is the most important path. And I unconsciously borrowed some of his words, concepts I share, when I spoke of parroting back the definitions of the ancients. I admit also to being one of the people who wonder if by learning more symbols and iconography and so forth that something will actually be lost in my ability to read the cards. Something will change in me as I study more and so I see that I am poised on the edge of a transformation, and I acknowledge that there are gains to be made and other things to be lost.

jmd	03 Jun 2004
Thankyou, Vincent... I personally do agree that there are various ways of engaging in discussions, and certainly am addressing the posts, not the individuals who may have posted (of course, this and the immediately preceding two word paragraph are in this instance contradictory examples :)). What often happens, for myself in any case, is that I read through and consider the various views which have been articulated or presented, and allow my own further reflections to be spoken, rather than do an analysis of another's post. Certainly there are different ways, then, of engaging in discussions. For myself, the way I read the 'versus' (in the title of the thread and generally) is not as presenting a rift between the pair of concepts on either side of the word, but rather viewing and discussing, in this case, intuition in contrast to (but not necessarily in opposition to) 'pre-determined' or stated card meanings. In that sense, and though the concepts of intuition and pre-arranged card meanings may indeed be discussed, the two may also be seen as complementary (in the general meaning of the term, this usually implies, in any case, precisely the bringing together of contrasting aspects of a situation to make it whole - and the 'contrasting' is also precisely one of the general meanings of 'versus'). The term 'rift' implies a separation and disparity not usually assumed, at least in my own understanding, of 'versus'... but this is getting more pedantic than is possibly intended by the general sense of the thread. I personally do prefer to have various views presented, as this sharpens each of our own personal views. At this stage - and though perhaps not articulated in ways which we may each find total comfort in - there are three stated or implied views; reading is by the un-anchored free association of thoughts arising from the cards at hand (by whatever name we call this, and however we may explain its nature), often called (though perhaps inaccurately) 'intuition'; reading is by the meticulous study of the specific symbolic details presented and intended in a specific deck (which may even be mentioned in a - or more than one - book); reading occurs with a body of background knowledge with varies significantly from individual to individual, but which generally is not the significant information which comes to the fore in the reading at hand. I suppose that I tend to subscribe to the third of these. Though I tend to consider the study of the symbolic depictions and structure important, I do not consider it vital when using the cards for the purposes of engaging in an immediate reading (here is also why I cannot see how a person, who may see in a specific card a peculiar and strange situation, could ever have this 'certified as correct' by anyone else attempting to read the same spread intended for the interpretative eyes of that specific reader in that specific instance).

tmgrl2	04 Jun 2004
Whew! I have been following this discussion with great interest. Very well said at the last, everyone! As to the questions of what kind of reader I like for myself. I believe I would like a reader similar to my own "style." Someone who is or continues to studying the literature, the history, the iconology and perhaps various related elements implied by the images including but not necessarily limited to the Kabbalah, astrology, numerology. philosophy. I know there are areas that are way to intricate and in-depth for me to choose to study at this stage of my life. Sometimes I read threads that delve into discussion that are fascinating but beyond my "absorption rate" and desire. However, I still read them and find gems of help that I tuck away inside. I recently had a reading by a Tarot reader. It was really a psychic reading. It was good, but when I asked a few questions about spread or cards or positions or imagery, the reader answered, "Oh I don't use any of that...it's way to logical." I accepted her reading later for what it gave me, but somehow, for me, if one is going to use Tarot, I personally want some of the above areas of knowledge in the background of the reader, since I do believe the Tarot cards are a channeling tool rich in origin and historical and icnological history. At the end of the day, I still say after a reading, "Did I get good guidance? Did the reader give me some lateral way of reflection, perhaps?" If so, job well-done. That, too, is what I hope to give a sitter...some way of looking at a situation that will be helpful. Perhaps I will steer the Querent toward another path of thinking and feeling. If so, job well done on my part, as well. terri

Suriel	04 Jun 2004
Hmm..i think both are important when doing a reading. As to me, i'm more to a pictorial tarot reader than to a literal tarot reader, so i often read different meanings from the card's literal meanings. However, sometimes i just get to my intuitions more, than to rely on the card meanings.:) Lswern

Luminessence	04 Jun 2004
I agree with most of the people who have posted - I think that a combination of the two is best. That's the way I read - I use a combination of intuition and traditional meanings. When I was first learning the cards, I looked up the meanings whenever I would do readings, and I would use my intuition to decide which parts of the card meanings were the most relevant for that particular reading. Now that I know the meanings pretty well, I rarely have to look them up (although occasionally I'll forget what a card means), but I still read in pretty much the same way - I know the basic meanings, and use my intuition to decide which parts of those meanings are the most relevant. For example, in some cases the Two of Cups represents a romantic relationship, but at other times it could indicate a harmonious time or a need for balance. It's not good to get too locked in to the specific meanings, but I think it's also good to know those meanings, so that you have a platform to work from. Besides, your mind often works better when you give it a symbol set to work from, because it knows what language to communicate to you in. That is not to say that everybody has to use the same meanings. Often, what set of meanings you learn depends upon what deck you started reading with and what books you learned from. And everybody develops their own ideas about what the cards mean - I think everybody's ideas of the cards deviate at least somewhat from the standard meanings. But I think that what's important is letting your mind learn the laugnage of the tarot, so that it can communicate to you through that medium more effectively. I'm not sure where this fits in, but there's something else that comes through as well, and I'm not sure whether this would fall on the side of traditional meanings or intuition or neither. You can concievably do accurate readings without knowing the card meanings, but going by the traditional meanings rather than your intuition. Let me clarify - when you're first learning the cards, for example, you might do a short reading for yourself, and have no clue what the cards mean, but when you look up the meanings you find that they're remarkably accurate. You haven't internalized the meanings yet, but you also aren't going by your intuitive sense of the cards - you're looking the meanings up. So what's coming through here? Does anybody have any ideas?

tmgrl2	04 Jun 2004
Luminessence...that has happened to me many times...about doing the reading with "learned" or "looked up" meanings...and it was right on...at least in the very beginning, which is quite recently...We really are works in progress, ourselves and how we live and function.. terri

FlipTarot	06 Jun 2004
This thread is very interesting. Unfortunately right now I'm surrounded my screaming young things playing computer games and am finding it difficult to do justice to, so I'll read over the whole thread on another date. Just to throw in a quick one for now, however ... It's a little puzzling to me, as someone with I suppose a passion for cinema amongst other things, why there needs necessarily to be any dichotomy at all between readings on 'intuition' Vs. those based on culturally associated meanings eg gained from studies on the cards. Such a dichotomy is to me perhaps an artifice, because of the nature of 'meaning'. All interpretation is formed inside us, both from culturally-learned and handed-down meanings (sometimes called 'memes', in a not-entirely-satisfactory analogy to 'genes') and from our own particular integration, personality, expression and experience. It is formed both consciously and unconsciously (as is all experience). We cannot avoid absorbing cultural interpretations of anything - we pick some of these up indirectly as well as directly, like it or not. But we can shed some light on the complexity of meanings for some symbol etc by unearthing its history and context and perhaps applying various analytical schemes (in the '80s Freud and Marx were academically popular, and were used with great success to uncover interesting things about seemingly-superficial cultural artefacts like films). In essence, this was to make conscious and explicit the meanings of the film that were communicated implicitly and unconsciously. I'm not up to date with this stuff currently so I don't know what they do now. If we think of us Tarotists as artists, or filmmakers - what an artist feels implicitly about an object is as important as what they think and have learned about that object and the two are to some extent inseparable - the two things are joined. And the meaning of the object is only made possible through relationships to everything else, the context, history and culture. Eg A card takes on more tightly read meanings in relation to the other cards in the spread, and to the reader and environment. Reading is feeling and thinking: intuition and analysis interfused. I'm not sure if I could throw away either what I have learned about a card or my own response to it. My unconscious would have it all still there anyway no matter what I did. In selecting one interpretation of a reading over another, my unconscious is going to play a part, like it or not. If I wanted to remove this element, I would have to use a computer program to solely construct the entire interpretation from programmed meanings, keeping me right out of it. Just a quick $0.02 worth, as they say. Hope I haven't upset anybody. FlipTarot PS: I don't know if it's still in fashion but a little book that used to be regarded as a good example of indicating the seemingly bottomless richness of meaning in commonly-known things was Roland Barthe's "Mythologies". It's a series of often-beautiful essays on such things as Greta Garbo's face, or the meaning of a boxing arena. Recommended.

tmgrl2	06 Jun 2004
FlipTarot...I think many of us would agree with you about good reading being some combination of learned and intuitive meanings. Re "memes," it's interesting you mentioned them. We use the term in my professional field in a somewhat negative way...In speech/language pathology, we use "memes" to refer to common words used by too many people in our profession when discussing a disability. For example, a parent might say my child has an "auditory processing disorder" which really doesn't say much except that it's a large umbrella to cover any problem with verbal input...could be anywhere along the pathway from hearing to cognition. We encourage more specific descriptive language so someone who hears about a child or adult's communication problem knows exactly what the difficulty is. That being said, I think a good reading would do the same...instead of telling the Q, for example, I see solidity in the material plane....a longer, more explicit reading would elaborate in such a fashion that the sitter had "something to hold on to." I think we are saying the same thing...So, as I learn and study and listen to other people's interpretations in study groups and threads, my inner basin of knowledge widens and there is more I can tap into as I learn to read. Thank you, everyone, for such valuable input in this thread. terri

Satori	06 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by FlipTarot It's a little puzzling to me, as someone with I suppose a passion for cinema amongst other things, why there needs necessarily to be any dichotomy at all between readings on 'intuition' Vs. those based on culturally associated meanings eg gained from studies on the cards. Such a dichotomy is to me perhaps an artifice, because of the nature of 'meaning'. Reading is feeling and thinking: intuition and analysis interfused. I'm not sure if I could throw away either what I have learned about a card or my own response to it. My unconscious would have it all still there anyway no matter what I did. In selecting one interpretation of a reading over another, my unconscious is going to play a part, like it or not. Well said Flip. I agree with so much of what you are saying and am interested in hearing what you left out! This thread has been very educational for me and sharpens the entire idea of what it means to be a lifelong student of tarot. In fact I welcome the deepening of meaning and mystery held in the tarot as I study more and my ideas change and develop. I know in an earlier post I mentioned wondering how my readings will change as I study more, but now I wonder if they will. And your post adds fuel to this ponderance. It seems to me the more one studies tarot the more myserious it becomes. This is proven to me by the responses of people who definitely know more about iconography and history. There is always more to write on the subject, because let's face it, no one has answered the big questions about tarot and what it is, was, will be, and ultimately, we probably never will. The mistake I made was in titling the thread the way I did. I think the name should have been something like-Reading The Tarot: Intuitive reading and Historical study. How do you balance the two, if at all, in your readings? And then you flip could answer and say, well, you can try but ultimately, the unconscious mind slips in and stirs up everything that you thought you knew! Hows that for a paraphrase?

tmgrl2	06 Jun 2004
yes, sometimes, the more I learn, the less I know... but I still continue to learn.... I hope I am a composite soul of what I have studied, learned from life experience, gained from going deep within and discovered by trusting my intuition. terri

Satori	06 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 I hope I am a composite soul of what I have studied, learned from life experience, gained from going deep within and discovered by trusting my intuition. terri Girl, you are more than that! There is a public speaker, a man named James Rohn who talks about making your life a masterpiece. From what I have seen, your ability to share and listen and respond from the core of who you are with no malice or avarice makes you pretty close to masterpiece already!

tmgrl2	06 Jun 2004
Bless you, elf....I am 61 but still a work in progress and I wish to always have a beginner's mind.... TY o:) I love the statement by the author of Johnathan Livingston Seagull...(My words) How will I know if my mission in life is over? Answer: If you're still alive, it isn't. terri

FlipTarot	07 Jun 2004
Elf: I agree, there is always more to get into. Seems the thread is converging now. Looking back at some of the earlier posts, it does seem some people assumed intuition vs. book meanings msut be an "either/or" opposition. But the original title resulted in a v stimulating thread. tmgrl2: Your comment on being a composite soul says what I was trying to say in a more elegant fashion. I like your "wish to always have a beginner's mind". Reminds me of something Picasso once said - that he spent his entire life trying to learn how to paint like a child. He loved children's paintings, the way they saw. But that didn't stop him accquiring great technical skill in a traditional sense before he went into cubism etc. He may have claimed to have done a lot of 'unlearning' with this aim, but his earlier skills obviously come through in his more famous work. Perhaps Tarot's like that. I do think it helpful to draw parallels between reading tarot and artistic processes - a way of seeing, a sequence of images that we interpret with our composite selves. Making explicit and conscious that which is communicated implicitly and unconciously. Anyway, enough of that!!! Sounds like a Channel 4/PBS special. (Re memes: this term apparently gets used for any 'self-replicating' unit of cultural information, so it seems there are broader uses than the particular one you quote - see eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme I just had a quick look on Google and it does tend to get used in a negative sense though - I don't see why, since all of language must be 'memes' in the broad sense. I'm not sure I really like this term anyway so perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up.) Cheers FT

tmgrl2	07 Jun 2004
LOL, FlipTarot...I will check out your link later...it wouldn't come up but I am interested...I agree it probably applies more broadly..the word "memes." We only recently began using it in our profession in the fashion I mentioned. Now our "meme" is a "meme." LOL Like your reference to Picasso...that would be an interesting topic in art all around...earlier versus later works of artists...in terms of experience versus beginner's mind...firemaiden, where are you? And, of course, the application to Tarot reading as we gain experience. terri

Satori	17 Mar 2005
I was looking at this thread and wondering what I would say now, about intuition vs. someone who knew the meanings cold, say, memorized out of a book. the thread didn't really answer the question of who we'd rather have read for us. Has the earmarkings of a poll, I think. Anyway, I'm resurrecting it. I would want an intuitive reader to read for me. I would also want that reader to have studied a little. But, most importantly, I would want the reader to be able to tell me what she is reading and feeling, not intellectualizing, like in this example by Umbrae: Quote: "or I start giving a bit on the reading and going on and I look down...and it's not the Queen of Wands, it's the Page of Wands (really happened_...and you know what? Ain't no amount of study will help you with this)" because: So, for me, the reader who goes with the Queen of Wands even tho it is the Page of Wands, well, that's my reader. I don't know if that will end up being the intuitive reader or not. Or something other, something we don't yet have a name for. That kind of reader. And so this also shows what happens a year later on AT. The thread starter shows up and resurrects a thread just to show everyone they just didn't know what they were talking about a year ago.....:)

closrapexa	18 Mar 2005
Seeing this resurrected thread only now, I was wondering how I could have missed such an interesting debaton on my favorite subject. I was also wondering how many debates turn inton a debate on the nature of debate itself. Hmmm, maybe some one should a thread on the nature of debate and its uses witout cluttering many other interesting threads that have nothing to do with it? That being said, thought I'd put my own two cents in on this subject. Of course I agree with most of the people who have posted here that a mixture of the two is the best way to go around it. Now, there is no way to actually "define" intuition. How can we say exactly what that "little voice inside your head" is. But, we can look at the other side, the side of the "meanings." Not to defend the LWBs, but even the "meanings" come from somewhere. When people say that they are learning the tradtional meanings for the cards, then what is it that they are learning? What other people wrote? I hope not. Thats LWBism, and as I have said before, I don't feel that that is the right way to go about Tarot. All the so-called traditional meanings came from somewhere, obviously. But from where? Closrapexa furrows his brow and looks towads the Heavans for the answer From the cards themselves, obviously. In my opinion, a good symbol dictionary is a better companion for studying Tarot than any book, since that realy does give the words to speak the language, and your intuition then kicks in to give you the syntax. Remember that even the writers of the "meanings" did the work, and checked the symbols etc. and then wrote their own meanings. My recomendation is that ayone who wants to learn Tarot is that they do the work, that they do the homework, because learning other perople's meanings is the wrong ay to go about it, but so is discarding everything that is actually on the cards and say "I don't need to learn anything, I read only and exclusively with my intuition". If you go that way, then why not read Oracles if you read them ultimately in the same way?

psychic sue	18 Mar 2005
Mixture of both definitely. Anyone can sit there and read the meanings of the cards from the book. You need to pick up the main thread in the reading and create a story with that thread at the core. And that takes a little bit of intuition. Sue

Moongold	18 Mar 2005
I missed this thread as well last year as well and can’t understand how that happened. Intuition is receiving knowledge immediately without reasoning - just knowing without having to go through a “process” to get there. Both firemaiden and Khatruman alluded to this. I think some of us acquire and internalize knowledge so effectively that we morenaturally read intuitively. How good you will be at at intuitive reading, I suspect, is due to how much you’ve learned, how you’ve processed it, and even how physically fit and alert you are. Somebody who is sick and chronically tired may not be able access the deeper wells within in the same ease as if they were 100%. The querent and their question - even their state of mind - may affect how you read. There are some people who do use intution fairly consistently and others who use a more allegorical or literal approach. I suspect we have read in various ways depending on some or other of these things. I think the word intuitive is understood in so many different ways by folk that it has almost lost its meaning. For myself, I use an allegorical and sometimes intuitive approach. Often I would use both in the same reading. I should add that the more spiritually well I am the better I read.

Moongold	18 Mar 2005
I just read Umbrae's experience about speaking about Queen Wands when Page Wands is the card before him. What if this simply means you're tired, you're confused or you've lost concentration? The presence of the card provides the safety of the reading. If the card is important, you know you're not just getting ephemera from someone. At least I believe that.

The Intuitive Reading vs. Card Meanings thread was originally posted on 24 May 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.