Swords

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Jun 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Deus Ex Machina	24 Jun 2004
Why do swords represent thoughts? In my mind, swords are anything but intellectual in nature - they carry connotations of violence and conflict. Of course ideas can create conflict, can be wielded like swords, and cut through untruths, but I can't think of much else. What am I missing?

Luminessence	24 Jun 2004
In tarot, Swords represent the element of Air, which represents the intellect. I'm not sure why Swords were chosen to represent Air, though. You're right - they do seem too violent for that to really fit.

linabeet	24 Jun 2004
I see swords as cutting through the air. The slicing power of itellect, nothing stands in it's way. It's the magical tool associated with the element, so it's symbolic. It's a cold swift rational element. The clear or not so clear lines of communication can be very dangerous, they can cut right to the heart and out again. Air is very impermanent and flighty,constantly in motion. Swords have that same instant impact feel to them, for me. The slicing attack of the mind.

ros	24 Jun 2004
I have read where some people use Swords as a fire sign. Maybe this would work better for you. You would then use Wands as Air. Something to think about!

dolphinprincess	24 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ros I have read where some people use Swords as a fire sign. Maybe this would work better for you. You would then use Wands as Air. Something to think about! This is exactly what I was thinking... There are many people that use Swords/Fire and Wands/Air... that may help you a bit.

Thirteen	24 Jun 2004
Linabeet hit on the main reason why, but just to add...what are you missing? How about the idea of razor sharp intellects; of cutting words; of swords clashing as a way of communicating...or putting up one's sword as a way of getting across an even more important message. People left their swords at the door to talk peace, or walked in wearing them to make a statement. Swords whistle in the wind, like words. They clash, like arguments. And if you don't know how to explain yourself, you babble wildly, as if inexpertly swinging a sword. Meanwhile, the brilliant speaker or scientist presents his evidence like a master fencer, coolly cutting to ribbons any theory to the contrary. A cool mind, like a cool, skillfully weilded sword will win a fight far faster than one weilded without skill and in the heat of temper. We forge our thoughts, our words as we do swords; folding arguments upon themselves, heating and cooling them, honing their edges. If we fail to really temper that steel, to make our ideas strong enough, then our sword will snap the minute we take them into battle, leaving us weaponless and lost. Are you beginning to see the connection of Swords to Air/communication/intellect? Finally, there's the story of the Sword of Damocles: "One day...[when] Damocles complimented King Dionysius on his abundance and power, Dionysius turned to Damocles and said, "If you think I'm so lucky, how would you like to try out my life?" Damocles readily agreed, and so Dionysius ordered everything to be prepared for Damocles to experience what life as Dionysius was like. Damocles was enjoying himself immensely until he noticed a sharp sword hovering over his head, which was suspended from the ceiling by a horse hair. This, the King explained to Damocles, was what life as ruler was really like. Damocles, alarmed and quickly revising his idea of what made up a good life, asked to be excused. He then eagerly returned to his poorer, but safer life." Thus, a sword can hang over our head like a nightmare or worrying thought. Our own words can be used against us. On the other hand, like Excalibur rising up out of the Lake, a sword can represent a fantastic idea and/or the words that unite a war-torn country, and create a Camelot. This is why a lot of us go along with the connection between swords and air/intellect/ideas/communication. Remember most of all that swords themselves are not violent. A sword hanging on a wall can't hurt you (unlike an unwatched fire!). They are tools and, like words, they can be used to defend as well as hurt, cut through bonds as well as take captives. Or just used to display great skill, as at a fencing match. Offering your sword to a king was how you swore fealty, and being touched on the shoulder by a sword was how the king transfomed a man into a knight. Yes, swords were weapons of war and fighting, but they were also emblems of great, shining, otherworldly IDEAS. Does that help?

northsea	25 Jun 2004
The Swords have a traditional connection with the nobility, and the nobility is the class of folks known for both philosophy (the philosopher-king) and waging battle.

Deus Ex Machina	25 Jun 2004
Thanks everyone, especially Thirteen. Your posts helped tremendously. Swords make a lot more sense now.

WooMonkey	25 Jun 2004
Agreeing with the above, I also prefer the air/swords pairing. They are the right suit for intellect because they are not warm and fuzzy. Remember, we refer to smart people as "sharp" and not so smart folks as "dull" (or at least we used to). :)

jmd	25 Jun 2004
When one is having a verbal argument, the similarity to air is the verbal aspect, the argumentative side to fire (passion). Leaving one's sword at the door, then, may indeed refer to leaving one's fiery element at the entrance in order for one to engage in discussions without the intrusion of the sword entering conversation. The various stories which include swords may as easily (to my reflections, more easily) relate that aspect to fiery qualities than to air ones. A fire within the confines of the hearth is likewise as safe as a sword hanging above the mantlepiece - yet each may, in similarly metaphorical sense, rage and be wielded in utter destructive impulses. Swords may certainly be correlated to the element of Fire - as well as, as has been done by others, to the element of Air, or of Water, or of Earth... each with appropriately seemingly good grounds. A perhaps useful task is also to see how swords can be correlated to each of the elements, for then its elemental attribution(s) become better understood, and not limited to the writings and reflections others have made.

Frequency	26 Jun 2004
I think it's interesting to co relate the sword or dagger or whatever often used in ritual... Whether you are pagan or satanist or whatever... and also the fire used in ritual too, or maybe the altar upon which you practice (stone, earth), or the chalice from which you drink? Do you feel to perform a succesful ritual all four elements are nescessary? Sorry to get off track a bit. Back on topic: I think it's important to see the swords as cunning, despite cutting. Truth hurts.

Thirteen	26 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd When one is having a verbal argument, the similarity to air is the verbal aspect, the argumentative side to fire (passion). *SIGH* Here we go again. When I talk ARGUEMENT, I don't mean the PASSIONATE or HOT part of it. Yes, words relate to "AIR" but words don't belong solely to Air. Air is the "brainy" part of words, the part which is clever and sharp--up above the world, in the theoretical clouds, in the untouchable mind. Meanwhile, passionate words belong to Fire and romantic, poetic words to Water. The point is, with Fire and Water it's less what you say than how you say it. One man can read a speech and the words will seem to burn; they'll heat up people (Fire), another can give the same speech and get a woman to melt, to fall in love with him (water) and a third can give the same speech and have people discussing and analyzing it for hours; chatter, chatter, chatter (Air). With AIR the words leave people speechless because its cleverness has just slit their throats or the truth of the words have just stabbed them right through the heart. If they're equally clever, then they might be able to stand up to those words, come back with their own words and start fencing, as with a pair of lawyers (an exchange of hot air?). This suits air and, metaphorically swords (IMHO). But if you want to set people aflame, make them want to run out and burn things down, then you need words spoke in a such a way as to fuel their inner fires. This is why I see Wands as fire, because Wands are wood and like such passionate words can set people ablaze, can set spirits alight, and make them ACT. Fire doesn't inspire argument or debate or analysis--all you want to do when your on fire is feed off that wood and burn. You can't set someone on fire by using a sword. It won't BURN. But you can set a staff, a spear or an arrow on fire (all common emblems of the wand suit). Quote: A fire within the confines of the hearth is likewise as safe as a sword hanging above the mantlepiece NO, it's not. I DARE you to leave a sword on the wall and walk out of your house. Now I DARE you to leave a fire burning in the fireplace--NO screen in front of it. Do you want to take the chance? Have you seen fires pop? Crackle? Toss out cinders? I have. I've seen them land on rugs and wood floors and start fires; in the 19th century it was all too common for women, sitting to near to fires, to find their hair and dresses starting to burn. Cinders floating up out of chimneys set thatched roofs alight and burned down whole towns! I'm sorry, but a sword hanging on the wall isn't going to destroy your house, your village or a city. Or haven't you heard of Mrs. O'leary's cow? Now if you believe with all your heart that fire = swords, and that's the way you see it, fine. And if Deus Ex can't hold with Swords as Air/Communication/Intellect, and wants to go for fire - sword, that's fine, too. There's an abundance of archived threads elaborating on the subject. But honestly, to me, the fire/air debate is so old and tired that it's moot at best. Either I convinced you or I didn't. And it doesn't matter to me at all which.

jmd	26 Jun 2004
Thirteen, as you well know, I respect your views as your views - and of course as shared my many other people. But on various aspects, we do not see the Tarot in exactly the same manner - and hope that ongoing differences add to the possibilities and the deepening of insights. To add to the example of the 'safe fire', I would of course feel perfectly safe about leaving a fire 'within the confines' of the hearth. Not placing a screen on an open fireplace, or closing the door of a combustion chambered wood heater, is of course unsafe, as is a sharp sword laying about with children playing. I personally agree that how one says something may reflect qualities of fire (like wielding a sword?) or water (the emotive aspect?), and what you have to say reflects, similarly, air-type qualities (like the movement of a plume or pen). The disagreement is to whether or not the mind, thinking and words have aspects to which swords may be contrasted, or alternatively which are sword-like. In metaphor, one can always find some similarities - hence also why Air is at times attributed to the suit of Cups. I agree with you, also, that this argument has been discussed many times before - and it seems that some hold strongly to various views, or have particular insights which directs one in particular ways. Frequency also brings another aspect, with regards to magical implements, to virtually argue against Sword as Fire by 'forcing' the list of implements to prevent an otherwise complement of four. I could just as easily list a chalice from which to drink, a fire set upon an altar, and the magical wand - this last as Air, bringing a full fourfold complement of elements. For myself, I suppose that the various traditions which link Fire and Swords together only adds to its appropriateness. Within the more traditional form, the Michaelic Fire and Sword imagery is a wonderful example, as is, of course, the Genesis fiery sword which turns every way to guard the way to the garden of Eden. Even in other traditions, of course, there is relevance: in Tibet, there is the Fire Sword to cut through ignorance and wordly attachment; and amongst some of the various pagan views mentioned by Frequency, at least some also have a clarity of correspondence between Fire and Sword (see this site and this one for two examples - I realise others reverse these, as other sites plainly illustrate). ...and then, on a more jovial note, there is this Fire Sword. ;) For myself, and as often mentioned, I tend to prefer to consider the implement and its usage, rather than assume an elemental attribution. It is not a matter of convincing each other, but of, I also would have hoped, unveiling both our various views and also the suit at hand. In this case, swords.

Deus Ex Machina	30 Jun 2004
13 and JMD, I see both of your points. Personally I associate ideas with air - Ideas are in many ways "above" all other things, as air is above earth, fire, and water. Ideas are intangible, as air is, but their presence can be felt, and we need them to survive - like oxygen. What I was unsure about though, was not whether Ideas and thought correspond to air or not, but whether they correspond to swords. I see more connections now - however I'm starting to wonder if the swords/ideas connection is an outdated remnant of anti-intellectual sentiment. Swords make ideas seem dangerous - which can be true, but I think it would be rather ignorant to say that ideas in general are dangerous. IT doesn't help that the suit of swords is the most negative suit in the tarot. If you explain why my worries are incorrect, i'd be very greatful.

Diana	30 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina IT doesn't help that the suit of swords is the most negative suit in the tarot. The suit of swords is the most negative suit in the Rider Waite tarot, as well as the Crowley tarot. But I don't think it is the most negative suit in the Tarot. Most unfortunate indeed, this depiction of "negative" swords. No suit is more negative nor more positive than any other. All the suits are actually "neutral" to begin with.

Kissa	30 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd For myself, I suppose that the various traditions which link Fire and Swords together only adds to its appropriateness. Within the more traditional form, the Michaelic Fire and Sword imagery is a wonderful example, as is, of course, the Genesis fiery sword which turns every way to guard the way to the garden of Eden. Even in other traditions, of course, there is relevance: in Tibet, there is the Fire Sword to cut through ignorance and wordly attachment; and amongst some of the various pagan views mentioned by Frequency, at least some also have a clarity of correspondence between Fire and Sword (see this site and this one for two examples - I realise others reverse these, as other sites plainly illustrate). ...and then, on a more jovial note, there is this Fire Sword . ;) Oh i've been missing those during four days... I had never even thought of Swords=Fire before getting interested in this stunning Nigel Jackson tarot that was gently sleeping on my too crowded tarot shelf... Then one day, about two months ago, it hit me and i came here to read some old threads... Of course jmd came to the rescue (via his older messages) he he... and his arguments made so much sense i discovered that swords=air had always bugged me somehow or maybe it was wands=fire that bugged me more. I just couldn't get why the elemental association to Wands would be Fire that actually destroys them... And Swords=Fire as jmd (and i guess many Tarot fundamentalists - ;) to my dearest Diana-) just rang the right bell. Ideas can be passionate as fire. Ideas and ideals are a fire that get many (if not all) of my actions started for example. So, my point was: i was a good girl, read the RWS books, swallowed the Swords=Air//Wands=Fire thing because that's what they said and what's used in 90% of the decks available on the market... and one day i realised it felt wrong. Not saying it is wrong, just feels wrong to me when i am using my cards. I cannot see why a constructive tool like Tarot would put the Wands for Fire (see above) that suits so perfectly to Swords for so many reasons. Just my two cents. I also agree with Diana that there is no negative suit in the Tarot as there is no negative card. Which was definitely not what i thought when i first look at the Nigel Jackson tarot about two years ago: some cards freaked me out (that's the reason it went to long time hibernation on my crowded shelf). Now when i read some comments that this deck is satanic and gives nightmares, i smile inside. A long way... I am quite proud of myself :) Quote: It is not a matter of convincing each other, but of, I also would have hoped, unveiling both our various views and also the suit at hand. In this case, swords. Amen to that. Kissa Edited to add: sorry, i haven't read Thirteen's message. I have the most profound respect for the wonderful Tarot Basics written by Thirteen and the way they are now available for a ridiculous price as an eBook (think of the bunch of money Thirteen could have made with the Basics being published by Llewellyn for example... but no, they are yours for $5 just one click away). I don't consider as a betrayal or a denegation of Thirteen's work to find myself more comfortable with Swords=Fire and I still intend to go back to the Basics regularly as the journey is much more fun than reaching the goal (which is anyway??)...

The Swords thread was originally posted on 24 Jun 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.