Libra: Justice or Temperance?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

sarahbellum	27 Sep 2004
I just had a birthday, thus making me a Libra (and yes, I DID order myself some tarot stuff as a treat). So I have been thinking again about the Golden Dawn correspondences, and in particular, Justice as Libra. Am I way off base here, or does it seem to anyone else besides me that Temperance is a much better example of "Libra-ness?" I am a full-blown Libra in my chart, with four other planets besides the Sun, and all five of those are in the seventh house (ruled by Libra); and I have to say that the Justice card doesn't seem to me to carry the right energy, or something. I know the scales most decks show in Justice's hand would seem like the right symbolism, but I generally read the card as meaning cause-and-effect, reaping the consequences of one's actions, law, and legalistic thinking. Libra energy (and here I am maybe just a LEETLE prejudiced) seems to me to be more interested in balance, and keeping things on a beautifully even keel, and forming partnerships. Doesn't that sound Temperance-ish? Any other Libras out there? (HAppy Birthday, if so.) What do you think? Maybe I am just tired of being stuck with Justice (not my favorite card) and the Queen of Swords (older woman in an air sign) as "my" cards. I know there have been other discussions about the Golden Dawn's correspondences but I would love to know what people think specifically about this particular one.

MeeWah	27 Sep 2004
I think in Astrology, Temperance is associated with Aquarius which is also Air.

Mesara	27 Sep 2004
Justice does seem like one of the most boring trumps, and seems far less "glamorous" than Temperance. However, I think this is one of those cards that does not get enough attention or study. Perhaps because the meaning of it seems so obvious we are inclined just to skip over it to the more interesting cards. I have been guilty of this, but your question has made me consider Justice in a new light. We all know it is the card of fairness, objectivity. But what would that mean in the world we know today? Representation of one capable of rational thought, one who is obviously touched emotionally by the good and bad parts of human nature but can keep their wits about them all the same in order to work for the common good. One who is polite and welcoming to everyone in a world where so many people are not; because of race, religion, or other petty superficial reasons. People under the influence of Justice and LIbras (from what I understand) will keep their manners in even the most heated situations. Because of this they often serve as Keepers of the Peace because their judgement and decisions can be trusted. They will never be one to let their personal feelings get in the way, or take a bribe, or adjust things for their own alterior motives. I wish I could say the same for our politicians! Libras are all about balance, harmony, sophistication; attributes which I think all show through in the above description of the many facets of Judgement. I don't think your off base when you consider Temperance to be fitting also, but I believe Justice is a powerful card unto itself that can offer some great influences in our lives. PS Happy Birthday!

jmd	27 Sep 2004
Happy belated birthday, Sarahbellum... with regards to this, I'll address it in my own way as a frontal labour d'amie (excuse this multi-play on words, but my own brain seems to be enjoying lateral activity here). Libra is of course an astrological sign. Justice is a cardinal virtue usually represented with scales and a sword. The two do indeed share the implement of the Scales. Does this therefore imply that the Scales of the constellation of Libra are the Scales of Justitia? Some certainly seem to have conflated the two. In a thread in Using Tarot on the Chariot, I mention that 'Justice is usually depicted quite differently to Libra (though they each have scales), and the card clearly depicts Justice, not Libra'. I suppose that I still quite clearly stand by this. There is no doubt, on the other hand, that Golden Dawn derivatives have adopted its particular views in terms of that Order's card ordering and correlations - and adopted, as a consequence, a correlation between re-numbered Justice and Libra. It may be worth considering some of the general attributes of Libra and give further cards with possible connections. There is certainly that other commonly attributed Libran card, XII the Hanged Man (see, for example, the thread Le Pendu - a very worthwhile thread to read through, and not just because of the similarity of the thread title with that of an Aeclectic member :)). So already we have here three possibilities for correlations with Libra: VIII - Justice ; XII - the Hanged Man ; and XIIII - Temperance . For myself, Justice is not Libra - the central qualities of each are different. Though of course Justice has to weigh various considerations, this makes for the usage of the implement only one of the considerations to the overall card of Justice. Over the horizon, there is only twice a year that the Sun sets (and rises, of course) at a point between the solstitial extremes - and of course this occurs at equinoctial times - at the entry into Aries, when the life of the Earth seems to rise, and Libra, when life seems to set. The Hanged Man depicts this beautifully, with the setting (going downwards) of the head into the horizon, equally balanced between the north and south extremes. And of course, there is the possibility of considering the proper admixture necessary in ongoing transformation in the card of Temperance. Though I personally see this card less as Libra than the previous one discussed... Perhaps, to add to further considerations, we may begin to consider how Libra is reflected in each and every card. But of course, this would not be fair to a Libran seeking to decide on one correlation above another ;)

Fulgour	27 Sep 2004
letter: Lamed month: Tishre sign: Libra card: XII The Hanged Man AT thread: RWS: 12 >< 21 and Saturn's Glyph *

isthmus nekoi	28 Sep 2004
I have seen Temperance associated w/Aquarius as well, although Sagittarius is the one more often cited. Temperance does not seem so much a balance to me as it does a synthesis.

Waterlily	28 Sep 2004
I've also seen Temperance connected to Aquarius (Thoth deck?) and it makes sense in terms of some of the imagery (the water bearer) but my natural instinct is to read it as Libran. She's definitely more feminine and Venusian than the Justice card, and seems to have a more emotional feel than how I think of Aquarius. I now they're both air signs, but Libra being relationship oriented, makes more sense to me regarding the water imagery. Aquarius is more "lightening bolt" than river to me, despite its traditional description as a "water bearer". I think if it strongly calls to you as a Libran card, why not use it as your significator instead of the Justice card? I wonder if male Librans identify more strongly with the Justice card. (I'm a Cancer and I don't identify with the Chariot card which is often associated with Cancer - maybe it's too masculine for me?)

Fulgour	28 Sep 2004
XIIII TEMPERANCE is Scorpio. *

casia	28 Sep 2004
Isnīt libra also about beauty, about liking and wanting to have beautiful things? which card would that be?

Fulgour	28 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by casia Isnīt libra also about beauty, about liking and wanting to have beautiful things? which card would that be? The Queen of Swords. _________________________________________ The difference here is kind of like where some have read the book and others have seen the movie... more alike than different, but oh what a difference.

Alissa	28 Sep 2004
Here's another thread On Justice... that might help you to see the card in a more Libran light. ;)

TemperanceAngel	29 Sep 2004
I always think: Justice - scales/Libra - scales, it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at things, but it works for me!

xviiirkna	30 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by sarahbellum Libra energy (and here I am maybe just a LEETLE prejudiced) seems to me to be more interested in balance, and keeping things on a beautifully even keel, and forming partnerships. Doesn't that sound Temperance-ish? Those things can very much be about Justice as well, it just depends on your viewpoint. Start looking at the card from as many decks as you can to see what they have to say. Take a look at the Justice card from Alexandra Genetti's 'Wheel of Change Tarot', about half way down the page here: http://www.wheelofchange.com/WheelText.html Or Julie Cuccia-Watts' Justice card from both the 'Blue Moon' and 'Maat Tarot' decks. http://www.newmoontradingco.com/moon/fullmoonlibra.htm And another beautiful vision of Maat as the Tarot's Justice is in the 'Mary-El Tarot' by Marie White: http://www.mary-el.com/majors.html I'm also a Libra (birthday coming up in a couple of weeks) and while I love and find great comfort relating to Temperance, I do strongly identify with Justice...even the more traditional depictions. When you think about the meaning in it's purest sense, it is the very essence of balance, truth and fairness. I've always found that when I have trouble relating to a certain card, it's a message that I need to pay attention to the obstacles they present. These are the things I need to work on and learn to accept and embrace in my own life and point of view. For instance, my soul/personality card is the Hierophant - a card that has long eluded me for any real connection. Once I looked beyond the stereotypical Pope/priest depiction of this card I started clicking with other aspects of teacher, sage, conventional wisdom, etc. It broadened my vision and although I still don't always 'get it', at least now it doesn't immediately flip my switch to OFF. Just some thoughts. And I hope that you had a happy birthday! Blessings, Sally Anne

jmd	30 Sep 2004
I tend to agree with xviiirkna that if there appears 'trouble relating to a certain card, it's a message that I need to pay attention to the obstacles [it] presents'. In the case mentioned by sarahbellum, however, the issue seems not one of relating or connecting with a card, but rather more specifically the CORRELATIONS which some have made between it and a particular (and legitimately questionable) astrological sign. To have a legitimate question about GD-type association certainly shows that Libra, though it may undoubtedly have elements which may be connected to numerous cards, is not to be tied exclusively to VIII - Justice. Interestingly, of course, the Minchiate is a wonderful means by which to show that Justice and Libra are distinct - though, as with any card, may carry echoes of each other via, in this case, the scales.

sarahbellum	30 Sep 2004
It is amazing how much collective knowledge we have. I have been reading and thinking about all the replies to my original post, and looking at the Justice and Temperance cards in various decks, and last night had one of those breakthrough moments. I realized that in all my attempts to make my Libra-ness fit one card or another, I was going through many of the same thought processes I do when trying to translate from one language to another. After I thought about it, I realized that Tarot and astrology ARE two different languages. Just like when I try to translate something from French to English, I often find that some words or phrases correspond almost one-to-one, some are only approximations, and some just don't translate well at all. Not only that, but some languages are more closely related than others, too. For example, French and Spanish are a lot easier to correlate than, say, English and the language of dreams. (No matter how hard I try to describe some of the things in my dreams, I can never capture the feeling and the sense of import.) I would put the Tarot-astrology connection somewhere between those two examples. To me, the trumps represent archetypes, or facets of the human condition--all of us contain all of them--while astrological signs represent ways of being in the world. I also remembered that at the time Tarot cards were first being used, astrologers placed a great deal more emphasis on one's rising sign than on one's sun sign. (My rising sign is Sagittarius, which in many systems corresponds to--wouldn't you know it--Temperance.) And then when I thought some more I realized that I have never made any real use of any system of connection between the trumps and the various signs of the zodiac. In readings, it has never been a particularly helpful concept for me. I find much more useful information from the actual symbols on the cards--the sword and blindfold that Justice displays present many more shades of meaning to me, in actual practice, than any proposed Libra correlation. In fact, I realize that whatever connections I might make between a trump card and a sign are almost always dependent on the context. In some situations, the Lovers will fulfill a Libra-ish role; in others, the Wheel of Fortune can be very Libra-like. Sometimes I get seduced by the craving to pigeonhole things. For me, anyway, I now think the desire to match up trumps with signs, in any kind of definitive way, is just not very useful, and actually kind of frustrating. I still believe the Temperance card comes closer to describing my own sense of self, but I also now don't think I'll get too excited about it. Just because some other system or grouping has a definite number of categories doesn't mean it corresponds to anything in Tarot. I would hesitate to try and assign the twelve apostles to the courts, for example, or the letters of the English alphabet to the trumps, or the bones of the hand to the minors. In fact, now that I think about it, that's one of the more charming aspects of the Tarot--nobody can ever quite pin it down. Does this mean I just had a Hanged Man moment?

Fulgour	30 Sep 2004
:) Astrology was the library of ancient civilizations, an eternal reference. All knowledge was placed in the heavens, preserved in the stars, safe there from loss and destruction. The stars were the sacred reservoir. The Phoenicians created their alphabet to contain and preserve each important aspect of their heavenly library, beginning thus with Aleph. But now they belong to us, to interpret and preserve in our own way. *

Time4Tea	13 Oct 2004
Greetings all, I'm a Libra, too, and fairly new to learning Tarot meanings - but I my feeling is that Judgement is more Libra-like than Justice. Judgement seems to be more about weighing things up and seeing both sides of an argument, while Justice is about reward or punishment or consequences. I like the Temperance card in the Gilded Tarot deck, and it feels quite Libra-ish to me. The two cups have a symetry and balance that I like, and I read that tempering is a blending/mixing of two substances so that fits the idea of Libra. Typical Libra comment - use the one you like best...

casia	22 Oct 2004
I think libra is more Temperance than Justice. It is more about being diplomatic, mediating problems seeing all sides of the issue and combining everyones opinion to come to a solution. Combining the right amount of opposites.... to make everyone happy. It is also about pleasing, we like to please donīt we?

Fulgour	24 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Waterlily I wonder if male Librans identify more strongly with the Justice card. (I'm a Cancer and I don't identify with the Chariot card which is often associated with Cancer - maybe it's too masculine for me?) You're on the right track: VIII Justice is Cancer. Letter 8 is Heth ~ and the 4th month: Tammuz. This is not Kabbalah ~ it's the 22 letter Alphabet that can be clearly seen, in order, in the Majors. :)

The Libra: Justice or Temperance? thread was originally posted on 27 Sep 2004 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.