Would a blank tarot deck work?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jun 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

fall_guy	21 Jun 2005
Hi all. I’m a newbie here so apologies if this has been discussed before (or if it seems rather bizarre!)… I’ve noticed that most literature on reading tarot (particularly the LWBs that come with most decks) say that the meanings given are suggestive, and that you should consider your own personal interpretations for each card. This is particularly suggested if using a fully pictorial deck, and that reversed cards shouldn’t be needed. From what I’ve seen, this approach to tarot reading has become more and more favoured as the number of fully pictorial decks (with special symbolism on every card) have grown in number and popularity. I’ve tried this with a number of fully pictorial decks (mainly Rider-Waite and it’s clones), and although the images do suggest interesting interpretations and ideas, I’ve found that the overall reading is generally inaccurate! In contrast, when I read with a Marseilles deck and stick to the given meanings (and use reversals), the readings appear much more coherent. In these cases I don’t even bother considering the imagery and just stick to the meanings (in this case, from S. L. MacGregor Mathers). So...could the imagery (with all it’s symbolism) actually be irrelevant? If you had the ‘definitive’ meanings for each card, would a blank tarot deck work?

Citrin	21 Jun 2005
I read something interesting in a book about interpreting dreams. It said that dreams obviously are different for everyone, but if one was to read a lot about dream symbolism in a book the brain would after a while start to pick up these meanings and 'use them' in dreams. If just hit me that it might be the same with tarot when I read how you use the given meanings in a Marseille deck...? Oh, and I skimmed through a tarot catalogue (US Games I believe) yesterday in a store, and it actually had a deck with blank cards. :)

fall_guy	21 Jun 2005
Citrin wrote: Oh, and I skimmed through a tarot catalogue (US Games I believe) yesterday in a store, and it actually had a deck with blank cards. :) Are they taking the mickey, or perhaps there something profound about this...? ;) I've kind of wondered if reading the tarot is like making a model without the full instructions. There are so many different approaches to the artwork, and the meanings have changed subtly (and not so subtly) over the years (e.g the Tower can now be read as a release from a stagnant situation, rather than ruin/destruction as it had been interpreted as a century ago). New spreads have also been created by many readers, and many readings are a hit-or-miss affair (at least for me!). Perhaps, every now and then by trial and error, we hit upon the ‘correct’ method of using the tarot for which it was originally used and we get a ‘true’ result? Which brings me back to the meanings verses the artwork – maybe the truth lies not in the artwork (or even the card titles), but in the method and concise card meanings? Hence a blank tarot (free from any preconceptions on what the image suggests) might produce interesting results…?

Kiama	21 Jun 2005
Hi fall_guy, Interesting hypothesis - but one that has a huge flaw when you look beyond your own readings at others' readings. You method of reading with the 'correcy' meanings given by Mathers works well for you. But the method of personal interpretations works brilliantly for other people, and they get spot-on accurate readings with it. Ergo, we can conclude that it probably isn't a case of accuracy being based on method or getting the 'true' meanings. And as for the concept of 'true' meanings... Why is what Mathers said so much more correct than what some other person, today, says? Because he was a Golden Dawn member? Because he lived a while ago (and of course, we all know that the 'older' the knowledge, the truer it must be. ;) )? From what I have heard Mathers was a distinctly tricky man, always playing jokes and taking people for a ride. I would not want to say then, that his interpretations of the cards are 'true' and others false. And how do you know that the Tower was ruin/destruction originally? We have no early texts telling us the original meanings of the Tarot cards (and some believe that this is because the cards weren't originally used for fortune-telling at all, but as a game.) Just because something is old, or ancient, doesn't mean it is somehow better or more valuable, more truthful than the wisdom and methods we use/create today. In fact, I would be inclined to say that in many cases the opposite is true: older means out-of-date, old-fashioned, useless to modern day people, or simply stupid. The Romans read the future in the entrails of animals and birds... but does that mean that this method is better than any other divination method that is modern? I highly doubt it. For me, I think that the accuracy of a reading does not depend on whether we hit what you call the 'true' method ot 'true' meanings (and I highly doubt that a - there is anything in Tarot that is objectively true and b - that we can know complete truth) but instead on whether we, and our querent, engages with the cards on the table in front of us; if we can establish a rapport with our querent, and apply the cards to their question and lives; if we can help that querent. (And the last is the most important to me personally.) As such, some people will be able to connect with the cards by using a tried and trusted method handed down through somebody like Mathers, whilst others will feel better 'going with the flow' and reading intuitively, or using their understanding of symbolism, myths, legends, nature, animal symbolism, numerology, astrology, etc. With the latter method, people don't always just read the images on the cards (and even if they did, they'd be likely to get similar results because images of a certain card, though being different, often convey a similar concept.) They often find themselves, when confronted with a card (say, the Tower) in a reading, seeing a panorama of ideas, concepts, sayings, colours, images, meanings, people, films, poems, myths, legends, personal experiences, and more, that they then use to gain the meaning for that card - intuitively. I highly doubt anybody reads the cards blank. (Although I have had a particularly wonderful reading from a 16 year old who had never seen a deck before in his life, and was explained the intuitive method before going ahead and laying down the cards.) So, that rant aside - would a blank deck work? I think it would actually work with both your method of reading, and the intuitive one. (As long as the titles of the cards were on them.) The intuitive method doesn't necessarily need card images, because often readers who are experienced and have been working with Tarot a long time just use the cards as flash cards - they don't focus on the image before them but the panorama of concepts in their head that are inspired by seeing that card. However, I don't see why we need to do away with these beautiful, evocative, inspiring pictures. Even for your method they are useful - they help you remember the card meanings. The moral of this story? Don't extrapolate from your own, isolated experience, to a universal hypothesis. Blessings, Kiama

Xander	21 Jun 2005
fall_guy wrote: So...could the imagery (with all it’s symbolism) actually be irrelevant? If you had the ‘definitive’ meanings for each card, would a blank tarot deck work? First time ive used Quote :D hope it works :P i know everyone is always quick to splash there ideas and beliefs on threads and you will always get 1million different answers but look... tarot was made to help poeople who couldnt talk and speak to actually read and write! in the good old days it was used as a learning tool! tarot without pictures is to be quite frank useless! its only recently people have discovered ways of reading them for fortune-telling and selfhelp! but u can do that by virtually anything (the greeks read tealeaves :D ) there is only one way to truely understand tarot and that is too take away the writing on the cards because it to easily blinds people and leads them down a one way path! a picture paints a million defferent storys but a book only tells one!

Ross G Caldwell	21 Jun 2005
fall_guy wrote: So...could the imagery (with all it’s symbolism) actually be irrelevant? If you had the ‘definitive’ meanings for each card, would a blank tarot deck work? I think it could work, if you were fully clairvoyant. Some people can read crystal balls, which are completely empty. It depends on ability to keep concentrated on the "question" (which could be a silent person sitting opposite yourself), while emptying your mind of all other concerns. You have to go into the spirit, onto the astral plane, or into the subconscious - however you want to call it - and keep your head about you and cogent while you do it. The imagery of the tarot - combined with readings where the position/placement of the card in the sequence is important - sometimes allows people to do this in the exact opposite way to a crystal ball. Instead of emptying the mind, the mind is flooded with imagery which must be sorted according to the needs of the question. It is the same in the end. So a blank tarot card (do you mean one with a number, but no imagery - or just blank cards?) could work. I guess by "blank" you really meant numbers but no pictures. Cards with 1-78 printed on them, or something like that. I guess if you knew a literal set of meanings for each number, it could be just about the same.

firemaiden	21 Jun 2005
How blank is the blank deck? I'm sure somebody could read with a completely blank deck... There are people who read with imaginary tarot decks. Close your eyes, meditate, imagine a deck, imagine you are shuffling it, imagine you turn over the first card, what card is it?

fall_guy	21 Jun 2005
Thanks for the responses. Sorry if I wasn’t making myself clear. I’m not saying that Mather’s meanings are the correct ones - I just find it curious that the images don’t really speak to me, and that using a set of meanings (which happen to be Mather’s) seems to work better for me. I’m not doubting that the opposite is true for others (nor did I suggest the original meaning of the Tower – I referred to a century ago and used Waite’s meaning for it). By ‘blank’, I mean 78 cards with no pictures but numbered and with the meanings on them (including reversed meanings). I’m relatively new to tarot, though I used to collect them for the artwork rather than for reading (rather paradoxically given my question!). As someone who has never done a face-to-face reading (!), I’m curious as to how another reader does this. As Xander says ‘a picture paints a million different storys…’, when I’ve read using a pictorial deck the imagery DOES tell a lot of stories to me – but if the querent were present, wouldn’t alternative stories and concepts come to their minds? Aren’t the interpretations that I come up with based on my own preconceptions? Perhaps this is why such decks don’t work for me and that I need to work on ‘emptying my head’ (as Ross mentions) before a reading (which shouldn’t be too difficult in my case ;)). However when I focus on the meanings rather than the imagery, the reading seems more coherent. I guess what I’m really wondering is if it’s feasible that there once was a set of clear meanings for each card which made the imagery redundant? And if the cards could be used as flashcards (and perhaps a learning tool), could it be for a precise meaning rather than the concepts that are inspired by them?

Kiama	21 Jun 2005
fall_guy wrote: However when I focus on the meanings rather than the imagery, the reading seems more coherent. I guess what I’m really wondering is if it’s feasible that there once was a set of clear meanings for each card which made the imagery redundant? And if the cards could be used as flashcards (and perhaps a learning tool), could it be for a precise meaning rather than the concepts that are inspired by them? Hi again fall_guy, For me, I don't make a distinction between the concepts inspired by the meaning and the meaning itself. For me, they are one and the same. The meaning is the concept of the card, and the concept is the meaning of the card. Quote: by fall_guy As Xander says ‘a picture paints a million different storys…’, when I’ve read using a pictorial deck the imagery DOES tell a lot of stories to me – but if the querent were present, wouldn’t alternative stories and concepts come to their minds? Aren’t the interpretations that I come up with based on my own preconceptions? Perhaps this is why such decks don’t work for me and that I need to work on ‘emptying my head’ (as Ross mentions) before a reading (which shouldn’t be too difficult in my case ). I think it depends on the reader. Some readers will ask the querent what the cards bring to their mind, and use that to read with - after all, it's the querent's story, not the reader's! And yes, I think that the interpretations you come up with are based on your own thoughts- but that a good reader's thoughts will be those focussed on the question at hand, and therefore the meanings of the cards will be applied to the question more effectively. And what is better: your own preconceptions being applied to the cards, or some 100-year dead writer's preconceptions being applied to the cards? We have to realize that if these cards had meanings originally, and even with themeanings that were applied to them later, they were given by people like you and me - no more or less fallible than you and me, no more or less prejudiced. Ergo, I don't place their own views above my own as 'better'. Blessings, Kiama

Xander	21 Jun 2005
i think i know what your getting at and if im right in thinking that i do know then yes ur right ;) basically if u strip down eachcard to a bare minimum u will get the same meaning for that card in every deck? there deffently is a core to tarot and if you scratch away enough of the paint i think you will get the same answer for each!... ..but what makes tarot tarot is the whole hidden history and symbols deep within the cards - a perfect example is the painting the Mona Lisa... sure its some bird/bloke grinning at something but the question that still plays on everyones mind and still to this day is "whats she/he smilimg at"? the same with tarot - but unfortuanlty i think alot of the hidden meanings have been wiped out because of so many people printing there own ideas for decks! i read that egyptians hid messages in the form of pictures (Tarot) so enemies or whoever it was couldnt dechyper the message unless they understood the colours, symbols and pictures! but ur absoulty right in saying..... wouldn’t alternative stories and concepts come to their minds? Aren’t the interpretations that I come up with based on my own preconceptions? but the gift of tarot is being able to put that interpretation across! what alot of people dont realise is when they are reading tarot for someone they are actually reading for themselves aswell - purley because when the cards are laid out infornt of them its STORY time! :D and its YOUR story you tell :P the seeker will 9times out of 10 will listen to everyword you say and when u finish will say thank you so much that was really good! tarot is very fascinating dude it really is - but is also so very easily misunderstood! an excellent game to play is this.... get all the cards mix them together and lay out one at a time starting with Once upon a time.... deal the first card....and then off u go :P great fun dude, great fun :P ***edit bit*** hahai posted what i wrote the same time as Kiama :D interesting :P

Marina	21 Jun 2005
IMHO, although the Tarot requires, as all Oracles, intuition when reading the cards, *studying* the Tarot is really important. The cards don't mean what you want them to mean. If you work this way, then it's 'what-i-think-mancy' not taromancy. I, for example, am a Wiccan. The image Devil can represent one of the God's side, the Horned Man, Pan etc. However, i don't see the Devil card as a good fertility card - it's much darker than that. Although it may mean sexual power an all, it has loads of other meanings that keep it far from being the best card in the deck. You cannot just run away from the traditional meanings. You cannot see the Tower as a stability card just because the image of tower reminds of you strong castles therefore for you it means strength and stability. Big no-no. Then everybody would creat their own Tarot and there would be no consensus. Your intuition must work inside the original meanings, or at least based on them. Otherwise, you'll always see what you want to, not what the cards are saying. Tarot is tarot, no matter if you are reading Thoth or Raider-Waite. There is always a traditional symbolism that must be respected ;) ~Yuko

Umbrae	21 Jun 2005
Once again time for this post: Ravenswing wrote: There was this little cafe in Center City Philadelphia called the Last Drop. I had some paintings hung there for a while, so I dropped in more than usual. I came in one night near one in the morning and found a strange sight. There was a rather youngish woman with long frizzy brown hair and big clear blue eyes sitting at a table by the window. I watched her for a moment from the doorway. She was throwing sugar packets up into the air and peering at the ones that landed on the table. Then she would talk, with a serious look to someone near the table. She picked up the ones that landed on the floor, gathering them all up. Someone else would come up to the table and the whole process started over again. I made my way over to her, with enough curiosity for all nine lives. I filled the empty chair at her table and asked her what she was doing. "Tarot,” she said. She cocked her head and smirked at me. "But I don't have anything to tell you..." "What do you mean?" I asked, thrown off guard. "You can do it yourself," the smirk warmed up and her eyes widened. "Can't you?" "Umm," was all I could say. She laughed and put a hand on mine. "But not this way...” She tossed the sugar packets into the air. Some hit the table, some landed on the floor, one slid off my head. She looked at the packets and began telling me about myself. I must have had the strangest look on my face right then, 'cause she stopped short. She took a deep breath and explained her method. She said she read majors only. There were 22 sugar packets, numbered from 1 to 21-- with one un-numbered. Her method was simple. She threw them up into the air, reading only the ones that fell on the table. If the number didn't show, the Trump was reversed-- the Fool always fell on his feet. There was no definitive layout; she read the patterning something like one might read tealeaves. I watched her throwing packets til dawn. I think she may have been the best-- or at least the most dramatic-- reader I have ever come across. My paintings haven't hung there in a while-- and none sold. But every so often I go back there. I've been lucky enough to catch her a few times since the first. One of these days I'll give her method a try. fly well Raven Meanings…I suppose it is difficult to conceive, that left to their own devices – no books, no mentors…just a deck and desire, that a student will arrive at or near ‘accepted’ meanings on their own. I mean...jeeze…do we have faith in those ‘archetypes’ or not. If they have to be 'spelled out' and memorized, what kind of ‘archetypes’ are they? Why does the Le Calzature Fantastiche work just fine when the images are far skewed from accepted imagry? However, the images are what make tarot Tarot…the numbering system of the minors, the sequencing of the majors…that is part of what defines Tarot. Take the images away and it would be very functional for a divination deck, but it would not be Tarot.

Fulgour	21 Jun 2005
Until you turn them over, all the cards are "blank" ~ then too, you could try reading with your eyes shut.

Xander	21 Jun 2005
miss_yuko wrote: IMHO, although the Tarot requires, as all Oracles, intuition when reading the cards, *studying* the Tarot is really important. The cards don't mean what you want them to mean. If you work this way, then it's 'what-i-think-mancy' not taromancy. this is deffently true - you do have to have somekind of BASIC knowledge and understanding the history of it all - but you cant read the card the same for each deck! you have to study the picture i think! its more then just a name its the numbers on there, the colours, the dots, the expressions, the features everything! just reading the meaning of a card and saying what it says in the little handbook is useless! its good to keep in the back of the mind the general meaning of the card but you have to let the pictures do the rest!

sagitarian	21 Jun 2005
I personally believe so, after all, there are many psychics out there that don't need anything at all to give you a reading. They use no tools, only their natural intuitive gift. In nature to the cards though, I believe that a marseille deck works better for you personally because for whatever reason, your more "tuned" to that energy. I've tried a Marsielle deck (sorry if i'm mispelling this here), and I got NO WHERE with it. Tarot gave me good information, but very very basic stuff. My faerie oracle deck gives me all the information plus some stuff. It's whatever you are more attuned with that works for you. If you honestly believed that you needed nothing to be able to do this, then you could do just as good (or even better) readings as your doing now. Cards are only a tool for us to practice our natural intuitive nature. Once developed, no long do you need this tool, or any other, and you can practice reading without any thing to aide you with it. Did I answer your question? Sagitarian

Asenath	21 Jun 2005
umbre wrote: I mean...jeeze…do we have faith in those ‘archetypes’ or not. If they have to be 'spelled out' and memorized, what kind of ‘archetypes’ are they? ...However, the images are what make tarot Tarot…the numbering system of the minors, the sequencing of the majors…that is part of what defines Tarot. xander wrote: this is deffently true - you do have to have somekind of BASIC knowledge and understanding the history of it all - but you cant read the card the same for each deck! I thought that the reason why people read from different decks was because they didn't necessarily get the same feelings from the cards from one deck to the next. So even if you knew what a card should mean, it wouldn't necessarily mean that depending on what you intuited from the reading. Also, I thought that archetypes spoke to people on some cultural/universal level. As Umbre said, if the archetypes have to be spelt out then what good are they? But by the same token, if they were really that obvious, would the labels on the bottom of the cards or even the LWBs or the dozens of books on card meanings really be necessary? fall_guy wrote: However when I focus on the meanings rather than the imagery, the reading seems more coherent. The problem that I'm having with tarot right now is this, I know what a card is supposed to mean, but my interpretation of the card sometimes differs because of the image on the card. But as someone pointed out (perhaps on another thread), with the hundreds of decks out there everyone is designing a deck to suit their interpretation of a card's meaning. Their projections may turn out to be perceived as something other than what the artist intended. For example, I love my Golden Tarot deck, but one of the children on the 6 of cups creeps me out. He's holding (I actually think squeezing) a bird in one hand and offering another child a cup (of poison?)with the other. To me, his face looks sinister. Although that card's supposed to mean friendship and the like, I keep thinking juvenile delinquent going to kill tourture and kill animals and then go on to do the same to adults. Perhaps this sunny picture would better suit me as the Death card, but I have to get over my interpretation and his scowling face and learn to interpret "happy" thoughts when I see it. Also, I remember in one of my art classes, someone made some sort of drawing or painting with a scull on it. The prof asked why he did it (in a what does this mean sort of way) and the artist replied that he thought it suited the piece. The prof went on to explain to him that you have to be careful what symbols you use because historically, blah, blah, blah. I guess what I'm wondering is how to distinguish between the meanings of the card that I've developed because that's what they mean to me (regardless of the LWB), what the meanings of the card mean because the artist says this is what I felt and liked it, and what the cards are supposed to mean and if each type of meaning has a time and place to be used? (Or am I not making sense.?:()

catti	21 Jun 2005
Fulgour wrote: Until you turn them over, all the cards are "blank" ~ then too, you could try reading with your eyes shut. Rather than buy a blank deck I like to shuffle and draw in my minds eye. Catti

Marina	21 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: you have to study the picture i think! its more then just a name its the numbers on there, the colours, the dots, the expressions, the features everything! ... its good to keep in the back of the mind the general meaning of the card but you have to let the pictures do the rest! I never said all decks give the same impression - but they all are based one the same basic meanings. In no tarot deck the Magician will mean the end of a situation. Not in Thoth, not in Archeon, not in Raider-Waite. But, of course, each deck gives you a different feeling - helps your intuition to work in a different way. But the basis stay. Xander wrote: just reading the meaning of a card and saying what it says in the little handbook is useless! Not so useless. I've gotten some good insight reading *that* word in the book. It works as a little push, so the intuition can do the rest. ~Yuko

PlatinumDove	21 Jun 2005
a completely blank deck? I'm trying to imagine doing a reading with that... I may use the same deck over and over again, but I can look in my journal and see where I came up with completely different meanings for the same cards, depending on the person, the question, the atmosphere, or what I happened to focus on in the card at that time.

full deck	21 Jun 2005
We've been though this once: http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=16456&highlight=blank+cards It was interesting . . .

SunChariot	21 Jun 2005
fall_guy wrote: Hi all. I’m a newbie here so apologies if this has been discussed before (or if it seems rather bizarre!)… I’ve noticed that most literature on reading tarot (particularly the LWBs that come with most decks) say that the meanings given are suggestive, and that you should consider your own personal interpretations for each card. This is particularly suggested if using a fully pictorial deck, and that reversed cards shouldn’t be needed. From what I’ve seen, this approach to tarot reading has become more and more favoured as the number of fully pictorial decks (with special symbolism on every card) have grown in number and popularity. I’ve tried this with a number of fully pictorial decks (mainly Rider-Waite and it’s clones), and although the images do suggest interesting interpretations and ideas, I’ve found that the overall reading is generally inaccurate! In contrast, when I read with a Marseilles deck and stick to the given meanings (and use reversals), the readings appear much more coherent. In these cases I don’t even bother considering the imagery and just stick to the meanings (in this case, from S. L. MacGregor Mathers). So...could the imagery (with all it’s symbolism) actually be irrelevant? If you had the ‘definitive’ meanings for each card, would a blank tarot deck work? That all depends on how you read. There are many different methods. I read intuitively, by analysing the images of the cards. While I do keep in the back of my mind somewhere the traditional meanings, it is is nowhere near as important as accessing what my unconscious has to say on the issue on any given day, through the images. So, for the way I read, no a blank deck would be useless to me. Bar

Xander	22 Jun 2005
Asenath wrote: For example, I love my Golden Tarot deck, but one of the children on the 6 of cups creeps me out. He's holding (I actually think squeezing) a bird in one hand and offering another child a cup (of poison?)with the other. To me, his face looks sinister. Although that card's supposed to mean friendship and the like, I keep thinking juvenile delinquent going to kill tourture and kill animals and then go on to do the same to adults. Perhaps this sunny picture would better suit me as the Death card, but I have to get over my interpretation and his scowling face and learn to interpret "happy" thoughts when I see it. You see - my point exactly! reading the meanings of the cards just clouds you in someone else's interpretation and now you have to fight against yourself? like you said. . . "but I have to get over my interpretation and his scowling face and learn to interpret "happy" thoughts when I see it" WHY DUDE???? :( havent you heard the phrase keep you enimies close but ur friends closer? meaning to say that its your friends that cause you the problems not your enimies? I think what you have got from that card is your own interpretation of friendships and you should read it like that in readings not this hoo har way some dude made up :/ Tarot = Tuning and Reading Own Thoughts!!! (just made that up) :P oh and miss Yuko i wasnt going loco at you :P i was actually using that to refer to fall_guys origanal post :P Hugs and kisses dudes, hugs and damn kisses :D

Asenath	22 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: I think what you have got from that card is your own interpretation of friendships and you should read it like that in readings not this hoo har way some dude made up :/ While I agree with some of what you've been saying, my point with my 6oC illustration is that had I not looked in the LWB, this card wouldn't be about friendship, for me. Perhaps if I looked at another deck maybe, but not this one. I've only been studying for about a month and a half so I'm really ignorant and I have a lot of questions, but I'm learning as I go. If I were to cut off the titles of the cards and had never picked up any books, I think that I would probably only be able to connect to the majors in the way that the cards are "generally" interpreted. My goal is to one day be able to read a deck of cards which, on the pips, has no pictures. But, once again, to get to your point Xander, if I looked at a 3 of clubs and were to try to figure out what it meant, I would probably come up with a) nothing, b) some random answer every time I saw that particular card. Each card has a particular meaning for a reason, so I guess it's as Umbre said, it's the systems that are already in place that make Tarot tarot. That said, I think that a blank deck would be extremely difficult to read, but if you used the paint chips it could be quite interesting...

Asenath	22 Jun 2005
Also, I'm sure I saw a blank deck being sold somewhere (online) as well. Maybe even here on AT??? I think the point of it was that you were supposed to draw your own pictures onto each card.

Xander	22 Jun 2005
Asenath wrote: But, once again, to get to your point Xander, if I looked at a 3 of clubs and were to try to figure out what it meant, I would probably come up with a) nothing, b) some random answer every time I saw that particular card :( tarot is there to help you stop thinking like this :( i just think with the whole tarot thing, u should only scratch the suface and then let yourself build up the rest! tarot is like DNA - everyone has it but everyones is different! Ofcourse you have got to read the rules if you like to understand what the game is - but you should bend the rules in your favour! If someone can show me where it says THIS IS HOW you have to do it then i will understand - but im yet to read that anywhere if u catch my drift :P

Asenath	22 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: Of course you have got to read the rules if you like to understand what the game is - but you should bend the rules in your favour! My point with the three of clubs, exactly! But with rules or guidance, I think that there's always a point where you've maybe gone too far (off the deep end.) Right now I'm enjoying my own interpretations and compairing them with the accepted/traditional stuff. :) I guess you need to know the rules if you're going to bend them? Quote: If someone can show me where it says THIS IS HOW you have to do it then i will understand - but im yet to read that anywhere if u catch my drift :P BUt by the same token, when people come online and ask for help, they acknowledge that there is a "right" way, or at least a way that works, somewhere out there...or else, as someone pointed out, everyone would be doing their own thing??? :)

Xander	22 Jun 2005
Asenath wrote: Right now I'm enjoying my own interpretations and compairing them with the accepted/traditional stuff. :) cool cool :D but whats the accepted/traditional stuff? Asenath wrote: BUt by the same token, when people come online and ask for help, they acknowledge that there is a "right" way, or at least a way that works, somewhere out there...or else, as someone pointed out, everyone would be doing their own thing??? :) but aint we meant to be doing our own thing? or is tarot just another form of control? :P if so then its back to christianity with me :D

Babylon_Jasmine	22 Jun 2005
fall_guy wrote: Hi all. I’m a newbie here so apologies if this has been discussed before (or if it seems rather bizarre!)… I’ve noticed that most literature on reading tarot (particularly the LWBs that come with most decks) say that the meanings given are suggestive, and that you should consider your own personal interpretations for each card. This is particularly suggested if using a fully pictorial deck, and that reversed cards shouldn’t be needed. From what I’ve seen, this approach to tarot reading has become more and more favoured as the number of fully pictorial decks (with special symbolism on every card) have grown in number and popularity. I’ve tried this with a number of fully pictorial decks (mainly Rider-Waite and it’s clones), and although the images do suggest interesting interpretations and ideas, I’ve found that the overall reading is generally inaccurate! In contrast, when I read with a Marseilles deck and stick to the given meanings (and use reversals), the readings appear much more coherent. In these cases I don’t even bother considering the imagery and just stick to the meanings (in this case, from S. L. MacGregor Mathers). So...could the imagery (with all it’s symbolism) actually be irrelevant? If you had the ‘definitive’ meanings for each card, would a blank tarot deck work? I think your results have more to do with how your mind works than how the cards work. Your minds magickal structure calls for strict rules, so for you, yes, a blank deck with just names on the cards would work fine. For someone who's magic works on a more intuitive level it would be disastrous.

Babylon_Jasmine	22 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: this is deffently true - you do have to have somekind of BASIC knowledge and understanding the history of it all - but you cant read the card the same for each deck! you have to study the picture i think! its more then just a name its the numbers on there, the colours, the dots, the expressions, the features everything! just reading the meaning of a card and saying what it says in the little handbook is useless! its good to keep in the back of the mind the general meaning of the card but you have to let the pictures do the rest! This is not useless. Some people's mind's thrive on rules and if you give them a complex enough set of rules they will be extremely magickal, put them in a more freeform environment and they are helpless. for some people carefully following the rules of layout, reading the meanings in the book, and then deciding what that means is the best method. Doesn't work for me, but that doesn't invalidate it.

Asenath	22 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: cool cool :D but whats the accepted/traditional stuff? The LWB. Keep up with me! ;)

Xander	23 Jun 2005
whats the LWB?? :P Little white book maybe?

Xander	23 Jun 2005
Babylon_Jasmine wrote: This is not useless. Some people's mind's thrive on rules and if you give them a complex enough set of rules they will be extremely magickal, put them in a more freeform environment and they are helpless. for some people carefully following the rules of layout, reading the meanings in the book, and then deciding what that means is the best method. Doesn't work for me, but that doesn't invalidate it. indeed this is true dude - but then if you put a free flowing mind behind a set of complex instructions then become stuck and unable to become extremely magickal! i just think that if you stick to the rules the whole point of tarot is wasted - it doesnt become magickal anymore! i dont know if its me but i think theres too many sheep in tarot and not enough shepherds - and i know for fact people pick up a deck of cards read the book that comes with it and say "hey look at me - i read tarot!" which is sad! :(

Kiama	23 Jun 2005
Asenath wrote: Each card has a particular meaning for a reason, so I guess it's as Umbre said, it's the systems that are already in place that make Tarot tarot. At some point, however, somebody no more special or knowledgeable than you and I had to GIVE the cards these supposed 'particular meanings'. Why are we accepting their way as the right way though? I dislike the idea that because something is older and 'traditional' it is the 'right' or 'better' way to do things. And I also see the card meanings, and the SYSTEMS applied to the Tarot as very different things indeed - both interlink, but they are not each other. Kiama

Asenath	23 Jun 2005
Kiama wrote: At some point, however, somebody no more special or knowledgeable than you and I had to GIVE the cards these supposed 'particular meanings'. Why are we accepting their way as the right way though? I dislike the idea that because something is older and 'traditional' it is the 'right' or 'better' way to do things. Kiama As I said before, I'm new so pardon my ignorance: But the way that I view the cards isn't like the way I view a car. Cars have evolved over time to make them biger or smaller, faster, more comfortable, more durable or less durable, etc. With the growth of technological knowledge the car companies are able to tweek the original and fine tune it. HOWEVER, if you wanted your car to have two wheels, 1 seat and a handle bar, I somehow don't think you could call it a car anymore... My arguement is just because I'm "newer" and maybe less "traditional" doesn't make me "right" or "better", either. And once again, if there wasn't some sort of tradition to go with it, there would be no tarot section in the book store, your cards would just come with a little card that said, "do what you want...think what you want" and it wouldn't take people years to learn...

Cerulean	23 Jun 2005
I am not certain why but the interesting question reminded me of liking bibliomancy or consulting books to find interesting quotes and answers to random questions that I sometimes have. No pictures, just words and meanings for my answers. It doesn't feel the same as tarot to me, but sometimes a passage of just words is what I need. Would the following be a good experiment for you? Because at the moment, you might be free or less-conditioned as some of us are in certain tarot-imaging habits and contexts: 1. If you wrote symbols such as QS (Queen of Swords), 2S (Two of Swords) on index cards (or paper bits that you tear/cut into the same size)...if 78 is too many, how about take 20 random card numbers from the majors as an example similar to the posted story of the sugar packets.... 2. Picked one to three of the cards/paper from the pile/hat/group... 3) Gave yourself a reading. Look up the favored meanings that you find definitive...does this experiment feel relevant to you? (This is given the context of this original question: So...could the imagery (with all it’s symbolism) actually be irrelevant? If you had the ‘definitive’ meanings for each card, would a blank tarot deck work?) My apology if this sounds irrevelant--I actually am interested to see if this sounds good and related to this intriguing view. Cerulean

Xander	24 Jun 2005
Kiama wrote: At some point, however, somebody no more special or knowledgeable than you and I had to GIVE the cards these supposed 'particular meanings'. Why are we accepting their way as the right way though? I dislike the idea that because something is older and 'traditional' it is the 'right' or 'better' way to do things. And I also see the card meanings, and the SYSTEMS applied to the Tarot as very different things indeed - both interlink, but they are not each other. Kiama I thank the heavens thats theres another shepherd among us :D :D :D :P Asenath wrote: My arguement is just because I'm "newer" and maybe less "traditional" doesn't make me "right" or "better", either. And once again, if there wasn't some sort of tradition to go with it, there would be no tarot section in the book store, your cards would just come with a little card that said, "do what you want...think what you want" and it wouldn't take people years to learn... dude who are you comparing yourself too? who are you trying to be better than? - if you think like this you will be fighting against yourself for a very very long time :( and what you said about the tarot "do what you want...think what you want" is exactly that - tarot can be used as a tool for many trades i.e. to help control imagination, selfhelp, fortunetelling, playing trumps, making choices, telling stories, used as a coffee mat! dude its how YOU feel and if you are using it for self-help or anything with spiritual intent then you deffently have to start tapping into that head of yours and banish this non-believe in yourself :P

PlatinumDove	24 Jun 2005
As a rule, I tend to throw away the LWB (yes, little white book for Xander :P), and go with my own interpretations. After all, the traditional interpretations won't always work in every single case you draw that card. Part of Tarot is trusting your inner guide and voice. :)

Asenath	24 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: dude who are you comparing yourself too? who are you trying to be better than? - if you think like this you will be fighting against yourself for a very very long time :( and what you said about the tarot "do what you want...think what you want" is exactly that - tarot can be used as a tool for many trades i.e. to help control imagination, selfhelp, fortunetelling, playing trumps, making choices, telling stories, used as a coffee mat! dude its how YOU feel and if you are using it for self-help or anything with spiritual intent then you deffently have to start tapping into that head of yours and banish this non-believe in yourself :P Xander, read what I said again, I said that I canNOT say that my point of view is better than anyone elses. However, I see just from this site, that there are loads of people who have been doing this for YEARS so obviously something must be working. My method is to learn from the others around me (past readers included) and to take what I need and develop on it. Also, when looking up card meanings, the meanings haven't strayed so far as let's say the Lovers card meaning love, unity, the Indie 500, Spice Girls, and fierce dogs. I'm not saying that they can't mean that, but I think it's safe to say that we all start out from a similar common point and then move on. My earlier comments acknowledge this common point as being accepted to varying degrees so that we do end up with the fool, the magician, the emperess, etc. instead of the lazy, hungry, sleepy, confused, etc. cards. Also Xander I'm not sure how you can say that "if you stick to the rules the whole point of tarot is wasted", but that "if you think like this you will be fighting against yourself for a very very long time"...Should I just throw my cards away, then? But that aside, back to Cerulean and Fall Guy - my question would be what is Tarot? (Honest question.) We've already suggested that it's because certain systems are in place to not make it oracle or runes, etc. If the words are gone and/or the pictures are gone, and we give each card some other (inconsistant) meaning would it become some other divinatory tool?

Xander	24 Jun 2005
Asenath wrote: Also Xander I'm not sure how you can say that "if you stick to the rules the whole point of tarot is wasted", but that "if you think like this you will be fighting against yourself for a very very long time"...Should I just throw my cards away, then? im in no postition to tell you what to do but, its like this - you have just bought a car from a car garage and they say to you Hey you can drive this car how ever you want but your not allowed to got past the 3rd gear! you ask Why not He says because i said so, even though the 4th and 5th gear work fine i just dont want you to use them! Fair enough - you take the car and leave and never go past 3rd gear! all because he said not to! nice ;) im not having a pop at you or nothing like that - im actually still speaking in gerneral terms of the orignall question about blank tarot! (but maybe strayed a bit :P ) rules restrict you thats what they are there for! being restricted is not a cool thing! if tarot was meant to keep you restricted then they wouldnt bother painting pictures they would just be blank! and would have writing on telling you what to say! i think thats been my point from the start..... maybe :P

Marina	24 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: rules restrict you thats what they are there for! being restricted is not a cool thing! if tarot was meant to keep you restricted then they wouldnt bother painting pictures they would just be blank! and would have writing on telling you what to say! i think thats been my point from the start..... maybe :P Exactly. Rules restrict so nobody goes saying that the Magician ends the cycle, the Tower means strong stability and so on. They make everyone start at one same point (tradicional meaning) and FROM THERE go and find their own interpretations. And note that i'm not saying that traditional meanings are 'better' than the ones you find in your journey. No no, you'll never hear me saying that. They are a common starting point. A world without rules would be a mess. Imagine if someones steals your card - i suppose you wouldn't like it. But with no rules, you cannot say anything, because in the robber's world, there's no rule against stealing cars. Same for tarot. A tarot without absolutely NO RULE at all would be a oracle in which the reader reads whatever he wants. It's right to find how the cards work for you, find your own point of view and feelings about the cards; it's RIGHT to use your own intuition. You cannot just throw the basic meanings out the window because you think they 'end the magic of the tarot'. They are indeed the magic of the tarot - the reason why it has survived as such a strong oracle for so many centuries. You must follow the middle way. You shouldn't either stick to the meanings of a book so crazy you aren't even willing to analyze the cards yourself, nor ignore completely the basic meanings of the cards in order to 'free yourself'. Xander wrote: but aint we meant to be doing our own thing? or is tarot just another form of control? if so then its back to christianity with me I have no idea where you read that Tarot is against christianity. Or that it belongs to any religion...not wanting to offend, but it's just narrow-mindedness, you know. Using traditional meanings as a base is far from being controled. It's just having a common point to start learning, and a way to not let yourself get carried away with other meanings (you may end up contradicting and confusing yourself, which is never good). They are the basis...you cannot expect a begginner to start reading with his intuition, with nothing else to help him, lead him first. Reading with intuition isn't so easy to learn. :TPW Yuko

Xander	24 Jun 2005
there is wisdom in your words miss_yuko but unfortuanlty i have to say - you cant compare tarot to the car robbers! We are dealing with a spritual sector not a material one! spritually the skies the limit and it means exactly that - and people devote spritually because they can free roam away form politics and everyday propaganda and find hope if you like in things that materially we cannot get! our normal lives have rules yes - but not when it comes down to your own feelings and intuition! even if there were rules for that then why on earth would you want to stick by them anyway? too many people get suckered into control, like religion, politics such the like and unfortunatly become so under control they forget how to speak from their own minds! you are and so are others completely correct about having to understand stuff before! im not saying that you shouldnt and i havent once said that! i know this is just a swing going back and forth with everyones opinions but i think im being misunderstood!.... IM A VICTIM :P i kid dudes :D oh and with this..... Quote: Originally Posted by Xander but aint we meant to be doing our own thing? or is tarot just another form of control? if so then its back to christianity with me I have no idea where you read that Tarot is against christianity. Or that it belongs to any religion...not wanting to offend, but it's just narrow-mindedness, you know. ....... haha i was taking the mickey! im not sure how you got that i was saying tarot was against christianity or belonged to religion from that? maybe its narrow mindedness on your behalf no?? ;) i kid :) but then maybe that helps my point what you said - how you got that interpretation from what i said there was completely on the wrong tracks but if i drew a picture ;) you might of said something different :P love and hugs dudes - always love and hugs

Marina	24 Jun 2005
Xander wrote: there is wisdom in your words miss_yuko but unfortuanlty i have to say - you cant compare tarot to the car robbers! We are dealing with a spritual sector not a material one! Dear, you are the one who started with the car example...i just followed your fashion. XANDER wrote: i know this is just a swing going back and forth with everyones opinions but i think im being misunderstood!.... IM A VICTIM :P i kid dudes :D Perhaps...what exactly you are trying to say? If my answer was so off the wall, then maybe you should...i don't know, explain yourself better. Xander wrote: ....... haha i was taking the mickey! im not sure how you got that i was saying tarot was against christianity or belonged to religion from that? maybe its narrow mindedness on your behalf no?? ;) i kid :) but then maybe that helps my point what you said - how you got that interpretation from what i said there was completely on the wrong tracks but if i drew a picture ;) you might of said something different :P love and hugs dudes - always love and hugs If i was mistaken then, i'm sorry. As i said, i didn't mean to be rude. But i do believe you should express yourself more clearly...it seems i'm understanding all wrong (according to you), but i can only see with my eyes. I'd really like to understand your message and opinion :) Love :TPW Yuko

Xander	24 Jun 2005
your answer wasnt off the wall at all dude :D you say and do as you please! its always hard to try and explain yourself properly! and yes i always have this problem trying to explain myself clearly because i get too excited :D Ok this is how i see Tarot as a whole A miss-understood tool! :P my reason for this is because.... its purley misunderstood ;) its all good saying LOVE and LIGHT, LOVE and LIGHT, LOVE and LIGHT (thats what your meant to say in the spirit world) but its understanding WHY your saying this! Like in Tarot! its about understanding WHAT YOUR saying! like i said its easy to pick up a set of tarot cards read the LWB, pull some cards and then declare yourself a magician! anyone can do that! if you know what im trying to say? In a nutshell if people are SO connected with thier SPIRIT GUIDES and thier ANGELS then you know that you dont need your LWB's to guide you if you have your GUARDIAN ANGELS with you?!? this is why i think its misunderstood because people are to quick to read and say 'YES - this is what its about!!' because its here written in black and white! if people did really use DIVINE GUIDENCE then they know exaclty what im talking about? maybe :P i think i havent explained myself any better :P hahaha Love and hugs dudes with extra hugs :)

MeeWah	24 Jun 2005
This is a sincere & serious query by a new member, who does not deserve the attitude being waged which in turn results in like reactions & confusion on the part of other viewers. For this reason, the thread is being closed temporarily for review. ~MeeWah Senior Moderator

The Would a blank tarot deck work? thread was originally posted on 21 Jun 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.