PKT:Secret Trad#1 - Study Group

Abrac

What Waite seems to be saying is the Secret Doctrine is found in random combinations produced by shuffling. The numbered sequence has little to no meaning for him. Starting with the end of line 17 and continuing into the next paragraph:

“. . . but, as I have said, it is the presentation of universal ideas by means of universal types, and it is in the combination of these types—if anywhere—that it presents Secret Doctrine.

That combination may, ex hypothesi (theoretically), reside in the numbered sequence of its series or in their fortuitous assemblage by shuffling, cutting and dealing, as in ordinary games of chance played with cards.”

There are two possibilities, (1) numbered sequence, or (2) random assemblage. He then proceeds to analyze Mathers’ and Papus’ numbered sequences and rejects them both. [Edit: More likely he's rejecting their conclusions and methods not the numerical sequences.]

Then skipping ahead to the first sentence in the next paragraph:

“The Trumps Major have also been treated in the alternative method which I have mentioned (i.e. shuffling), and Grand Orient, in his Manual Of Cartomancy, under the guise of a mode of transcendental divination, has really offered the result of certain illustrative readings of the cards when arranged as the result of a fortuitous combination by means of shuffling and dealing.”

Grand Orient is Waite; it’s an alias he used sometimes. Manual of Cartomancy was published in 1889, so this type of “transcendental divination” was something Waite had been using for quite awhile. It doesn't seem to me that he would have been satisfied with any numerical sequence really, [Edit: His arranging the order of the trumps to suit himself proves this statement doesn't hold water.] as he was looking at things through an entirely different lens.

I’m getting ahead of things but it seems necessary to try and clarify line 17.

Yelell

Abrac said:
What Waite seems to be saying is the Secret Doctrine is found in random combinations produced by shuffling. The numbered sequence has little to no meaning for him. Starting with the end of line 17 and continuing into the next paragraph:

“. . . but, as I have said, it is the presentation of universal ideas by means of universal types, and it is in the combination of these types—if anywhere—that it presents Secret Doctrine.

That combination may, ex hypothesi (theoretically), reside in the numbered sequence of its series or in their fortuitous assemblage by shuffling, cutting and dealing, as in ordinary games of chance played with cards.”

There are two possibilities, (1) numbered sequence, or (2) random assemblage. He then proceeds to analyze Mathers’ and Papus’ numbered sequences and rejects them both.

Then skipping ahead to the first sentence in the next paragraph:

“The Trumps Major have also been treated in the alternative method which I have mentioned (i.e. shuffling), and Grand Orient, in his Manual Of Cartomancy, under the guise of a mode of transcendental divination, has really offered the result of certain illustrative readings of the cards when arranged as the result of a fortuitous combination by means of shuffling and dealing.”

Grand Orient is Waite; it’s an alias he used sometimes. Manual of Cartomancy was published in 1889, so this type of “transcendental divination” was something Waite had been using for quite awhile. It doesn't seem to me that he would have been satisfied with any numerical sequence really, as he was looking at things through an entirely different lens.

I’m getting ahead of things but It seems necessary to try and clarify line 17.

.......thinking........

.......thinking........

.......thinking........

I suppose I see what you're getting at. I am therefore unable to comprehend the difference then between "transcendental divination" "found in random combinations produced by shuffling" and 'fortune telling" from his viewpoint. BUT, that's not surprising in the least! 75% of this so far has been either outside my interest, beliefs, and/or my sheer capability to understand, but I expected that .....

Still I love the deck, so I irritatingly tag along :party:

Carry on, lest I derail you

Teheuti

Abrac said:
I’m getting ahead of things but It seems necessary to try and clarify line 17.

Thank you, Abrac.

I could copy out Waite's Tarot chapter in The Manual of Cartomancy but instead I think we can go directly to the chapter on page 124 (see link) called "The Book of the Secret Word and the Higher Way to Fortune" in which he references "the soul's progress" - which Eden Gray later called "the fool's journey."
https://archive.org/details/manualofcartoman00gran

Within this chapter, I especially recommend Section III: World of Attainment.

Waite writes in this section:

“The card which bears no number (Fool) passes through all the numbered cards and is changed in each, as the natural man passes through worlds of lesser experience, worlds of devotion, worlds of successive attainment, and receives the everlasting wisdom as the gift of perseverance."

Waite then gives sample questions for each of the three “Worlds” he discusses.
For the World of Attainment his first question is:
“What is, literally speaking, that kind of life which does lead to the Doctrine, and what form of it applies to my individual case?"

He also notes that a triple answer is possible for each question: an answer each from the Worlds of 1) Human Prudence, 2) Conformity and 3) Attainment.

He notes: "This is no question of ordinary Divination, but of a prayerful search after light on the things that concern the soul, and it is to the higher soul within us that we must look for the answer."

The result “is the analogical and mystical explanation of the law which inheres in the symbols, however combined."

On page 143, Waite gives a sample reading of the World of Attainment question "What is the kind of life that leads to the Doctrine?" If you learn best by example (like I do) then this part is well-worth reading carefully. It helps tremendously to lay out the cards and look at them as you go through his interpretation.

Note that all the Trump cards are shuffled and dealt in a line and then read as a combined long-statement. Remember that the meanings he is using are drawn from his earlier explanation of the card meanings in Section III: World of Attainment. Note how he draws special attention to certain key cards, reading them as triplets in conjunction with the cards on either side. Some of these triplets overlap each other.

Abrac

Yelell, personally I don't believe Waite's dogma, I just like understanding it because of all the misinformation there is out there.

Abrac

Thanks for that explanation Mary. I was aware of Waite's "three Worlds" but never have dug in and tried to understand it. Very interesting.

Teheuti

Abrac said:
Yelell, personally I don't believe Waite's dogma, I just like understanding it because of all the misinformation there is out there.

I admire Waite's "doggedness" in developing a comprehensive vision for the Secret Tradition that draws on the Western mystical tradition of Boehme, Swedenborg, Martinez de Pasqually, St. Martin, the Rosicrucians, Freemasons, alchemists and Kabbalists in relation to Tarot.

My personal relationship to Tarot is based more on a Jungian perspective that fits extraordinarily well with some core elements in Waite's vision. My spiritual practice is along the lines of what I call "California, eclectic, Goddess-spirituality" that differs significantly from Waite.

Teheuti

INIVEA said:
It's a fact that their is disagreements, and it is difficult to know which is the correct order.

I don't believe there is a correct order.

In one of the forums several years ago a couple of us who use different Tarot Trees took everyone on guided tours of our favored tree - just as if we were seasoned tour guides pointing out the sights and significance of each landmark and surroundings. I ended up with a deep respect for and greater understanding of each version. This convinced me that each Tree is a different kind of map of the territory - like topo maps versus road/driving maps versus 3-D shopping maps. Each emphasizes different things and elucidates different points. Each are complete from their own pov.

Yelell

Teheuti said:
I admire Waite's "doggedness" in developing a comprehensive vision for the Secret Tradition that draws on the Western mystical tradition of Boehme, Swedenborg, Martinez de Pasqually, St. Martin, the Rosicrucians, alchemists and Kabbalists in relation to Tarot.

My personal relationship to Tarot is based more on a Jungian perspective that fits extraordinarily well with some core elements in Waite's vision. My spiritual practice is along the lines of what I call "California, eclectic, Goddess-spirituality" that differs significantly from Waite.

I'm in the likely minority in tarot today with a Christian perspective, but I don't have to believe something to read or learn it. Unfortunately I lack the intellectual ability to follow most of these writings, and the alchemy is beyond over my head.

Yelell

Teheuti said:
I don't believe there is a correct order.

In one of the forums several years ago a couple of us who use different Tarot Trees took everyone on guided tours of our favored tree - just as if we were seasoned tour guides pointing out the sights and significance of each landmark and surroundings. I ended up with a deep respect for and greater understanding of each version. This convinced me that each Tree is a different kind of map of the territory - like topo maps versus road/driving maps versus 3-D shopping maps. Each emphasizes different things and elucidates different points. Each are complete from their own pov.

I guess I just assumed he would want a 'correct order' because of the later positioning of the fool before the world, but I suppose that's unrelated to what he's saying in this part.

Teheuti

Yelell said:
I guess I just assumed he would want a 'correct order' because of the later positioning of the fool before the world, but I suppose that's unrelated to what he's saying in this part.

Since Waite didn't believe the Tarot came from the Kabbalah or had an esoteric origin and he was well aware of changes that had been made to the cards and their order since their first appearance, I don't think he was terribly tied to there being an original correct order but, rather, orders that served certain purposes.

As Waite says: the Fool "passes through all the numbered cards and is changed in each." Thus, the Fool could start at the beginning and move through to the end (or near end).