coredil
Here are some pictures of Picards book:
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/valet_de_coupe/e/3fd5455a532081af550383aaae4821eb
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/valet_de_coupe/e/3fd5455a532081af550383aaae4821eb
Spanish Tarot (Marseilles)
euripides
Spanish Tarot
I have the English-only version of the Spanish Tarot (the Giusep Ottone 1736 Fournier / Piedmont-Ligurian) but no box or book. I'm trying to find out a bit more about it, and wondering if anyone has come across anything lately. Do any of our members have access to the museum, or a museum publication? I'd really love to see images of the original.
In particular, at the moment, I'm interested in the Tower card, as it has a falling branch which I suspect is the modern artist's mis-interpretation of flames, or, perhaps there is something else going on there (Garden of Babylon?) that requires investigation.
http://www.tarot.com/show_daily_card.php?explicit_card=16&explicit_deck=15
On the spiral 'S' on the Two of Disks, and on the circle of the Ace, there is no printing at all, where most decks have some info about the printer etc, so I'm wondering if this english-only deck is a bit of an oddity....
I have the English-only version of the Spanish Tarot (the Giusep Ottone 1736 Fournier / Piedmont-Ligurian) but no box or book. I'm trying to find out a bit more about it, and wondering if anyone has come across anything lately. Do any of our members have access to the museum, or a museum publication? I'd really love to see images of the original.
In particular, at the moment, I'm interested in the Tower card, as it has a falling branch which I suspect is the modern artist's mis-interpretation of flames, or, perhaps there is something else going on there (Garden of Babylon?) that requires investigation.
http://www.tarot.com/show_daily_card.php?explicit_card=16&explicit_deck=15
On the spiral 'S' on the Two of Disks, and on the circle of the Ace, there is no printing at all, where most decks have some info about the printer etc, so I'm wondering if this english-only deck is a bit of an oddity....
le pendu
I'm trying to find a copy of this deck in the trade forum.
Basically, this deck shows most of the signs of a TdMI style deck. The deck is supposedly based on the "Tarot of Giusep Ottoneit", an "Italian-Piedmontese".
I'm still trying to find samples of a "Italian-Piedmontese", or the Giusep Ottoneit, but have never been able to find any images of it.
Basically, this deck shows most of the signs of a TdMI style deck. The deck is supposedly based on the "Tarot of Giusep Ottoneit", an "Italian-Piedmontese".
I'm still trying to find samples of a "Italian-Piedmontese", or the Giusep Ottoneit, but have never been able to find any images of it.
Moonbow
My deck is exactly as shown in the link by euripides for Tarot.com, and it has the same Two of Coins with the words, "Tarot Fabricado Por Heraclio Fournier Vitoria Espana". The titles are in Spanish. I bought this deck because I liked the colours... yeah I know, but I am a girl so I can say things like that! 
euripides
web references to the Spanish Ottone Tarot
Collecting a few references. It doesn't help that Ottone is Italian for 'brass'. I think.
Collected Fragments of Tarot History
1736 Serravalle, Italy
“By the second quarter of the century this earliest form of the Tarocco Piemontese was being made in Piedmont itself; the earliest example known to me is one by Giuseppe Ottone of Serravalle made in 1736 and now in the Museo de Naipes Fournier in Vitoria.” (GT 196.)
- no idea who/what the GT reference is. Serravalle seems to be the maker of the Ancient Italian Tarots.
According to this page at 'tarot university', the Spanish Marseilles
" was published in 1975, but was based on the classical Italian-Piedmontese tarot of Giusep Ottone of 1736, (says the entry in the Fournier Playing Cards encyclopedia.)"
and this Hermetics.org - pdf
' The deck we are featuring from this family is based
on the classical Italian-Piedmontese tarot of
Giusep Ottone, first published in1736. Dr.
Lewis Keizer considers this family of decks to
be the best reproduction of the earliest Arcana
to have survived the Inquisition (see "The
Esoteric Origins of Tarot: More than a Wicked
Pack of Cards"). '
Then there's the Tarot.com article quoted by Laura_borealis at the beginning of this thread.
Collecting a few references. It doesn't help that Ottone is Italian for 'brass'. I think.
Collected Fragments of Tarot History
1736 Serravalle, Italy
“By the second quarter of the century this earliest form of the Tarocco Piemontese was being made in Piedmont itself; the earliest example known to me is one by Giuseppe Ottone of Serravalle made in 1736 and now in the Museo de Naipes Fournier in Vitoria.” (GT 196.)
- no idea who/what the GT reference is. Serravalle seems to be the maker of the Ancient Italian Tarots.
According to this page at 'tarot university', the Spanish Marseilles
" was published in 1975, but was based on the classical Italian-Piedmontese tarot of Giusep Ottone of 1736, (says the entry in the Fournier Playing Cards encyclopedia.)"
and this Hermetics.org - pdf
' The deck we are featuring from this family is based
on the classical Italian-Piedmontese tarot of
Giusep Ottone, first published in1736. Dr.
Lewis Keizer considers this family of decks to
be the best reproduction of the earliest Arcana
to have survived the Inquisition (see "The
Esoteric Origins of Tarot: More than a Wicked
Pack of Cards"). '
Then there's the Tarot.com article quoted by Laura_borealis at the beginning of this thread.
euripides
le pendu said:
sorry that was a typo on my part. Ottone. ....
le pendu
And that'll teach me to copy and paste in a hurry!euripides said:
Ottone!
kenji
Ottone images
I have a copy of Fournier catalogue, and it has a coloured picture of 5 Ottone cards, which includes two trumps and the 2 of Coins.
Robert:
If I send you the image by email, could you upload it here?
I have a copy of Fournier catalogue, and it has a coloured picture of 5 Ottone cards, which includes two trumps and the 2 of Coins.
Robert:
If I send you the image by email, could you upload it here?
le pendu
That would be GREAT Kenji. I'd be happy to upload it for everyone to see.
kenji
Ottone image
I believe le pendu will soon upload the image of 5 Ottone cards
They have French titles, not Italian.
I feel the most interesting cards in Spanish tarot is the trumps 2 & 5. They are obviously dechristianized: the persons wears NO papal tiaras, and the rod which the man in the trump 5 holds is neither a triple cross nor a bishop's crook. Besides, the Spanish titles in the Fournier reproduction are "LA SACERDOTISA" and "EL SUMO SACERDOTE". I don't know what the original French titles Ottone gave them were, but probably they were not LA PAPESSE and LE PAPE, I think.
I suspect this 1736 Ottone deck may have been influenced by "Montieri affair" (Bologna, 1725), which brought about the present style of Bolognese tarot.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The replacement of the Papi by Mori came about in 1725 by the intervention of the Papal Legate, Cardinal Ruffo. At that time, Bologna, although very proud of its ancient liberties, fell within the Papal States, but, by an agreement of 1447, enjoyed considerable autonomy. In 1725 Canon Luigi Montieri of Bologna produced a geographical Tarocchino pack: the body of each trump card gave geographical information, while the suit cards showed the coats of arms of the aniziani and gonfalonieri (aldermen and standard-bearers) of Bologna from 1670 onwards. At the top of each card a small panel showed the denomination of the card (Montieri substituted the 2-6 of each suit for the 6-10). What annoyed the Legate, Cardinal Ruffo, was that on the Matto Bologna was described as having a 'mixed government' (governo misto). Ruffo ordered Montieri's pack publicly burned; Montieri and everyone concerned with its production were arrested. However, the Legate quickly came to realise that to proceed against them on this ground would arouse deep resentment in the city. He therefore had the prisoners rapidly released, and, to save face, demanded instead that the four Papi be replaced by four Moorish satraps, and the Angel by a Lady (Dama). The first change was accepted, though the second was ignored, and Montieri's pack was reissued with the Moors instead of Papi; moreover, Moors were henceforth used in all Bolognese Tarot packs.
(quoted from "A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack" by Michael Dummett & John McLeod, pp. 262-263)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I wich I could contact with Fournier museum and check up on the French titles...
I believe le pendu will soon upload the image of 5 Ottone cards
They have French titles, not Italian.
I feel the most interesting cards in Spanish tarot is the trumps 2 & 5. They are obviously dechristianized: the persons wears NO papal tiaras, and the rod which the man in the trump 5 holds is neither a triple cross nor a bishop's crook. Besides, the Spanish titles in the Fournier reproduction are "LA SACERDOTISA" and "EL SUMO SACERDOTE". I don't know what the original French titles Ottone gave them were, but probably they were not LA PAPESSE and LE PAPE, I think.
I suspect this 1736 Ottone deck may have been influenced by "Montieri affair" (Bologna, 1725), which brought about the present style of Bolognese tarot.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The replacement of the Papi by Mori came about in 1725 by the intervention of the Papal Legate, Cardinal Ruffo. At that time, Bologna, although very proud of its ancient liberties, fell within the Papal States, but, by an agreement of 1447, enjoyed considerable autonomy. In 1725 Canon Luigi Montieri of Bologna produced a geographical Tarocchino pack: the body of each trump card gave geographical information, while the suit cards showed the coats of arms of the aniziani and gonfalonieri (aldermen and standard-bearers) of Bologna from 1670 onwards. At the top of each card a small panel showed the denomination of the card (Montieri substituted the 2-6 of each suit for the 6-10). What annoyed the Legate, Cardinal Ruffo, was that on the Matto Bologna was described as having a 'mixed government' (governo misto). Ruffo ordered Montieri's pack publicly burned; Montieri and everyone concerned with its production were arrested. However, the Legate quickly came to realise that to proceed against them on this ground would arouse deep resentment in the city. He therefore had the prisoners rapidly released, and, to save face, demanded instead that the four Papi be replaced by four Moorish satraps, and the Angel by a Lady (Dama). The first change was accepted, though the second was ignored, and Montieri's pack was reissued with the Moors instead of Papi; moreover, Moors were henceforth used in all Bolognese Tarot packs.
(quoted from "A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack" by Michael Dummett & John McLeod, pp. 262-263)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I wich I could contact with Fournier museum and check up on the French titles...
