What is the purpose of the Will? (split from BoL 2.22)

Curtis Penfold

Grigori said:
On reflection I'd like to challange this statement, the definition of happiness at least. I know popularly we're told that if we follow the will of God we'll be happy, but I think the definition of that is variable. I can think of a few Christian martyrs who are shining examples of following God's will, and they didn't have anything like a happy life. Also a few saints, nuns etc. I think happiness is probably the wrong word, certainty in spite of our circumstances is maybe a bettter way to say it. Direction and purpose, even when things are crappy I think is a kind of happiness that is realistic.
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I would use the word joy referring to something deeper than happiness.

I say deeper because what I'm referring to is a stronger motivational force than simple pleasure.

Fulfillment, purpose, yes! That's what "I'm referring to.
 

Curtis Penfold

Anyway, I'm a pretty deviant guy. In Sociology, I did a deviance project where I walked into 3 different location without wearing pants. I did acting every year of High School. I would sing and give high fives to people I didn't know in the hall way.

I created a theory about deviance: it can be a good thing. My secular theory is that harmless deviance helps people gain perspective on what is logically right and wrong as opposed to simply what society teaches. Objective morality.

My spiritual theory, one that I think resembles Thelema, is that a person can find their True Self (god-will?) when they forsake everything, including the comfort of social normality.

Now, I'm trying to understand the difference of what I'm thinking here and what Thelema teaches. Obviously, Crowley is no relativist. He believes there are some things that are generally right and things that are generally wrong. For example, he preaches against Osirian thinking. I'm guessing he feels that your god-will doesn't think that way? He's also against controlling others...I think.

Anyway, are there any thoughts on what I'm saying here?



P.S.
I'm reading the stuff you've guys suggested. Hopefully they help me have a clearer image on Thelema.
 

nicky

I don't think the idea of forsaking is very Thelemic. True Will would be embracing not forsaking.


Nicky
minervaled and clueless mostly ....but working on it ;)
 

Aeon418

Curtis Penfold said:
Obviously, Crowley is no relativist.
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Yes he was!
Curtis Penfold said:
He believes there are some things that are generally right and things that are generally wrong.
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The non-existence of external morality is fundamental to Crowley's thought. Thelema revolves around moral relativism and recognises that notions of "right" and "wrong" vary with context and the individual(s) involved.
Curtis Penfold said:
For example, he preaches against Osirian thinking.
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Only in the same way that enlightened people in the past preached against "flat world" thinking. In various places Crowley states that the Osirian formula still exists, but only because it is based on ignorance and limited perception. In that sense the formula of Osiris is still "true" for the vast majority of people on this planet today.
 

Curtis Penfold

nicky said:
I don't think the idea of forsaking is very Thelemic. True Will would be embracing not forsaking.
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It's finding that phallus ;)

But there are things you have to forsake, right? I mean, in a way, you have to forsake or at the very least not succumb to your ego. There are a lot of things that work contrary to your True Will.

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By the way, we've discussed my Mormon faith before, and I feel I should add that Joseph Smith did teach that we were all gods. In the Pearl of Great Price (a kind of rewrite of Genesis), the wording for God is Gods.

See, we believe in a pre-existence, that we all lived with God before hand, and that we helped Jehovah and Elohim create the world. In essence, we were Gods.

We don't remember that, but we're trying to. In reality, everything we're learning now we've known before.

We're supposed to follow the Holy Spirit so we can know what God wants of us. Some deep Mormon philosophers (like myself...maybe just myself) would say that, by following the Holy Spirit, we are becoming God.

See: Jesus, Heavenly Father, the Holy Spirit, they're all God! They're all one and the same. In the Pearl of Great Price, God says: This is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

So if our work and our glory becomes the same as God's, we become God. We become one as the Father and Son is one, as two married people are one.

Anyway, I think Thelema and Mormonism are talking about the same thing and just using different imagery.

Comments?
 

Curtis Penfold

Aeon418 said:
Only in the same way that enlightened people in the past preached against "flat world" thinking. In various places Crowley states that the Osirian formula still exists, but only because it is based on ignorance and limited perception. In that sense the formula of Osiris is still "true" for the vast majority of people on this planet today.
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If he believes that Osirian ethics are wrong, then I don't think he's not a true relativist.

Maybe I misunderstand relativism. The problem I've always had with it is that, under relativism, tolerance is just as valid as intolerance. You know what I mean? A system of ethnocentrism is just as valid as a system of relativism, under relativism.


Does Crowley believe Osirian ethics are wrong? If so, I don't think he fits the purist definition of relativism.

I mean, does he feel you have to find your True Will, or does it just not matter whether you find it or not?
 

Aeon418

Curtis Penfold said:
Thank you for that. I think it gave me a clearer picture of what Thelema teaches about the Divine Will.
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Did you spot the important developmental theme on which Thelema rests?

Will in the Old Testament is defined as strict obedience to the word of God enshrined in rigid codes of conduct and endless rules of the, "Thou shalt do X. Thou shalt not do Y", variety. Independence of thought and action is outlawed. Deviation earns instant punishment.
The perceptive reader will recognise that this is essentially a spirituality designed for children (of all ages ;)).

Will in the New Testament is more sophisticated. There is much less emphasis on rules. To take their place there is a role model called Jesus. Now when an ethical dilema arises there is no need to go trawling through a list of turgid rules and regulations. Instead the faithful merely need to ask themselves, "what would Jesus do?". This brings with it a lot more freedom of action and a big element of choice. Of course the ever present threat of punishment still exists. But this can be mitigated by "fessing up" and performing an act of grovling self-abasement called Repentance.
This is essentially a spiritulity for adolesentents (of all ages ;)). At this stage more freedom is granted than before. But with it comes more personal responsibilty. It's not complete freedom though. There are still boundaries and limits that have to be respected. (In a way it is comparable to the situation of a young adult who is still living with their parents.)

Will in Thelema is Do what thou wilt. No more lists of commandments to regulate behaviour. No more role models to guide action. This time you're on your own. This is spirituality for adults (of all ages ;)). This is freedom in the true sense. Basically if you mess up, you carry the can.
An analogy (don't take it too literally please) is that of a young adult leaving the family nest. Those who succeed and thrive are those who meet the new challenges and accept the new responsibilities. They may also find they have a lot more freedom of action open to them than when they lived at home.
The failures are the ones who still act as if they are living with their parents. So they blow all their money and party with their friends. Then suddenly annoying realities called bills start arriving in the mail. The party is over and you're on a one way ride up fudge creek. Either that or you go home with your tail between your legs and live with mum and dad again, with their rules. :(
This is essentially the warning in Crowley's description of the Hanged Man card.
 
The Chariot/Cheth & Hebrew Letter Elemental Weapons, the Aces, and Magick