Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum

Hadar's "Véritable" Tarot de Marseille - What is it true to?

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Marseilles & Other Early Decks


 
Fulgour's Avatar
Fulgour  Fulgour is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2004
Location: slumbrin in the windrows of the hours...
Posts: 7,828
Fulgour 

Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
[size=1.5]Translation of Kris Hadar's reply (original in above post)[/size]

...the Tarot was made for people who
did not know how to read and write…
Often when looking at these images I sense that a lovingly deliberate
effort was made to keep the cards looking and feeling like the property
of the commoners ~ they say, we are like you, of the world you know...
Top   #11
kenji's Avatar
kenji  kenji is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 11 Mar 2004
Location: Fukuoka, Japan
Posts: 397
kenji 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ross G Caldwell

1. Avignon did not become part of France until 1791; until then, it was a Papal dominion. According to Chobaut, who studied the Avignon cardmakers most deeply ("Les Maîtres-Cartiers d'Avignon du XVe Siècle à la Révolution" 1955) No Parisian or Royal Edict concerning cards was promulgated there until 1756 (no legislation concerning cardmakers whatsoever in fact) when the King forced the Pope to allow the same tariffs on cards from Avignon as in France. Avignon was effectively dominating the market with much cheaper cards, to the detriment of Marseilles.

Therefore the Payen family, who were cardmakers in Avignon from 1686 until after the Revolution (the first Payen had been a card-maker in Marseille until 1686), could easily have preserved an *unbroken* tradition, and Payen's 1713 deck from Avignon therefore does not represent a recreation after the destruction of 1701. In Avignon, there was no destruction.

2. Dodal's deck could be dated anywhere from 1701 to 1715. There is no date on the pack. 1701-1715 are simply the dates when Dodal was active in Lyon. Therefore, Payen's could be earlier than Dodal's, strictly technically speaking.

And if Dodal had to recarve his plates, then Payen's is certainly to be preferred.

It is a pity there is no real facsimile of Payen's deck...
Hi Ross,
This is a very interesting topic
Now I have a question as to the data on Payen:
Kaplan II says "Born in Marseilles in 1683, Payen
established himself in Avignon in 1710, where he
died in 1757" (Probably derived from "TAROT, JEU
ET MAGIE").
I wonder which is right???
Top   #12
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 

Quote:
Originally posted by kenji
Hi Ross,
This is a very interesting topic
Now I have a question as to the data on Payen:
Kaplan II says "Born in Marseilles in 1683, Payen
established himself in Avignon in 1710, where he
died in 1757" (Probably derived from "TAROT, JEU
ET MAGIE").
I wonder which is right???
Our Payen spent his whole life in Avignon, since he was three years old.

As far as "established himself in Avignon in 1710", Kaplan is actually misleading (not intentionally I am sure). What he should have said is that Payen "established himself *independently of his father*, in Avignon, in 1710."

Kaplan lists Chobaut in his bibliography, but since there is no asterisk it's hard to say if he's read it. Chobaut is authoritative because his research is constructed on primary documents. He actually studied the archives, the birth, death and marriage records, the records of the transactions, inventories, contracts, etc.

Note that "maître-cartier" - "master cardmaker" - is not a description of the quality of his work, it is a technical term meaning the "master" has established himself, he is no longer an "apprentice" working under someone else.

Chobaut on Jean-Pierre's father -

"Jean Payen (or "Payan" before 1700), born around 1654, son of François and Catherine Bourelly, established before 1686 as a merchant-cartier at Marseille; at Aix-en-Provence in 1679 he married Thérèse Geoffroy, daughter of Jacques; two of his brothers-in-law, Blaise Geoffroy and Jean Dreveton, husband of Marguerite Geoffroy, were master cardmakers at Aix-en-Provence.
"I know nothing of the reasons which made Jean Payen decide to establish himself in the Papal City [Avignon] in 1686. Doubtless, since the death of Guillaume Garet [the last noted master cardmaker in Avignon before Payen, died 1685] there had been no master cardmaker in Avignon, and Payen hoped to have less competition and be better protected from the French regulations than at Marseille or at Aix-en-Provence."
.....
"Jean Payen, followed by his sons, was extremely successful; he had many apprentices (...) Jean Payen was the first of 10 master-cardmakers of this family who worked in Avignon for the entire 18th century."

[snip details of addresses and apprentices - he became very rich - in 1697, he bought a paper-mill which his family owned until 1774. He died in 1731, appointing his eldest son Jean as heir. Chobaut also provides a genealogical chart].


Jean had four sons -

1) aforementioned Jean - 1680-1758; cartier in Avignon;
2) Jean-Pierre (our Jean-Pierre Payen) - 1683-1757; cartier in Avignon;
3) Pierre-François - 1687-1748; cartier first at Arles, then Avignon;
4) Armentaire - 1690 - ?; cartier at Arles.

The first son's story is interesting for us, since he became master-cardmaker as his father's heir, while he appointed his son the director of the papermill owned by the family. It was a virtual monopoly of Payens in Avignon.

Chobaut on Jean-Pierre Payen (ours) -

"Jean-Pierre Payen, baptised at Marseille the 29 June 1683, died at Avignon 27 September 1757, son of Jean, established at Avignon in 1686.
"Emancipated by his father at the time of his marriage, 2 June 1710, Jean-Pierre Payen established himself merchant-cartier and stationer on the 5 June, at rue Rouge or the Orfèvres, parish of Notre-Dame la Principale. On the 8th of July 1712, he bought a house and boutique, rue de l'Argenterie or Bancasse, parish Saint-Agricol, and there installed his industry and business.
"He appears to have had good rapport with his confreres in Montpellier: he had as apprentice in 1724, Nicolas Surville, and in 1730, Antoine Bacquier, both originally from this town; in 1735, his daughter Marie married Fulcran Bouscarel, merchant-cartier and stationer of Montpellier, son of Bernard, of the same profession.
"His eldest son, Jean-Pierre (1723-1793) would be a silk-merchant, then merchant-stationer and binder. The workshop and boutique of playing cards on the rue Bancasse went to the younger son, Joseph-Agricol."

Thus you can see that Kaplan's date 1710 is misleading; this is the year that Jean-Pierre Payen was emancipated by his father, and established himself as master-cartier in Avignon, *independently* of the other Payens. Kaplan makes it appear that 1710 was the year Jean-Pierre first came to Avignon from Marseilles; in fact, since three years of age he was in Avignon. 1710 is just the year he started his own business.
Top   #13
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 

Quote:
Originally posted by kenji
Hi Ross,
This is a very interesting topic
Now I have a question as to the data on Payen:
Kaplan II says "Born in Marseilles in 1683, Payen
established himself in Avignon in 1710, where he
died in 1757" (Probably derived from "TAROT, JEU
ET MAGIE").
I wonder which is right???
I have just checked Depaulis "Tarot: jeu et magie" and he says exactly what Kaplan says, hence must be Kaplan's source. Therefore the misleading ambiguity is from 1984 Depaulis.

In 1984 Depaulis had not yet read Chobaut's 1955 article, it appears, since the earliest reference to "taraux" is mentioned in it. In 1984, Depaulis writes that the earliest mention of "tarau" is Rabelais, 1534. But Chobaut quotes an Avignon account from 1507 - "cards commonly called 'taraux'". Depaulis apparently checked this reference recently, and found out that it really dates to 1505. But in 1984, he didn't know Chobaut's text.

Nor did he know, of course, that there would be a debate by members of the aeclectic tarotforum on the importance of the date 1701 in France, and whether it applies to certain cards.
Top   #14
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ross G Caldwell
It is a pity there is no real facsimile of Payen's deck...
The Beneicke Rare Book and Manuscript Library has the 1713 Payen in high resolution b/w images

at
http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl_...ype=&curpage=6

on the same page, there is what appears to be an 1889 Wirth (b/w)

home page
http://www.library.yale.edu/beinecke/brblhome.html
Top   #15
kenji's Avatar
kenji  kenji is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 11 Mar 2004
Location: Fukuoka, Japan
Posts: 397
kenji 

Dear Ross,

Great information!!
Thank you so so so much.

"Payen deck may precede Dodal's"...
Very interesting
Top   #16
Fulgour's Avatar
Fulgour  Fulgour is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2004
Location: slumbrin in the windrows of the hours...
Posts: 7,828
Fulgour 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ross G Caldwell
The Beneicke Rare Book and Manuscript Library has the 1713 Payen in high resolution b/w images
at
http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl_...ype=&curpage=6
on the same page, there is what appears to be an 1889 Wirth (b/w)
home page
http://www.library.yale.edu/beinecke/brblhome.html
Alas, repeated efforts, even by alternate routes, have failed to
bring me to this page (the first link) and the images thereupon.

Ross, can you please check out the link to see why I get only
'not found'? ~ I'd also love to see the Oswald Wirth images...

Thanks!
Top   #17
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 

Quote:
Originally posted by Fulgour
Alas, repeated efforts, even by alternate routes, have failed to
bring me to this page (the first link) and the images thereupon.

Ross, can you please check out the link to see why I get only
'not found'? ~ I'd also love to see the Oswald Wirth images...

Thanks!
I guess it's the randomizer of the search string... it must time out.

I found if you go the home page (my second link), you should go to "Digital Images Online" - click on it.

In the search field, type "cary" and "cards" (any other words will bring you different results)

- you should get 12 pages. The whole Payen deck will be on pages 5-6; the Wirth deck is at the top left of page 7.

You can probably find it other ways too, the site is a little hard to negotiate.
Top   #18
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 

Quote:
Originally posted by kenji
Dear Ross,

Great information!!
Thank you so so so much.

"Payen deck may precede Dodal's"...
Very interesting
It's made me think about two details - the face on the Devil's belly, and the figure in the mandorla in Le Monde, with cape and girdle. These details are pointed out by Depaulis, but I haven't checked the pips and honneurs against the Dodal or Conver.

The Payen seems to be an underrated deck. We should petition Borvo and/or Beneicke to publish it with somebody. There will be enough demand!
Top   #19
Fulgour's Avatar
Fulgour  Fulgour is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2004
Location: slumbrin in the windrows of the hours...
Posts: 7,828
Fulgour 
Smile


Thanks, Ross! This time the Oswald Wirth images, and all
the others, came in just fine. This site is always like
going to the Circus for the very first time...
Top   #20




 


 


Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

Copyright © 1996 - 2019 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.