Meaning & Image

moderndayruth

gregory said:
Ah, now there I think I disagree. Do you think they come from some kind of HIGHER source ? because that would perhaps knock out the idea that they come from the image creators in the time and society they live in....
Which part exactly do you disagree, Greg? I do believe that the inspiration to create anything - be it a story or a Tarot card comes from "above" whatever one choose to call it - Universe, Goddess, Higher Consciousness... i personally call Him - Hashem. (Hope there are no objections to my right to do so.) I am speaking from my own experience with writing and from what i've heard/read from numerous creative people.By the way, imo that which is not 'inspired' is made for commercial reason only. I think every image creator/ writer interpretes the creative impuls through time and society they live in yet i do believe they are 'channels'. I don't need anyone to agree with my view of the creative process, after all - it is only my own view, but if there is something left unclear in the way i perceive it - please do let me know, i'll try explain.


gregory said:
Also if from a HIGHER source - would the creator even be able to explain whence they came ? or choose what to put in ? It almost sounds as if that would be a bit like automatic writing - something happens while you create, something that you have no control over - but the images just sort of EMERGE, previously formed. Or something. If you see what I mean ?
I have no experience with automatic writing so i wouldn't know, as per writing of fiction, i do have control over wording/ execution/ manifestation of the creative impuls that did not originate in me.

Kilted Kat said:
This begs the question why there are Pikachus and Bulbasaurs in the first place.

There is always a choice. But there isn't always only two.

I agree 100% with Kilted Kat, in my experience *choice* is an illusion of the mind, in reality there is always an alternative.
 

gregory

ummm. I will have to come back to you, MDR - I should be doing something else and was about to log off. I think we are on the same wavelength but at different nodes :D

ETA but if there are alternatives, there has to be choice, no ???? :confused:
 

moderndayruth

gregory said:
ummm. I will have to come back to you, MDR - I should be doing something else and was about to log off. I think we are on the same wavelength but at different nodes :D

ETA but if there are alternatives, there has to be choice, no ???? :confused:

That's what i thought as well ;)
As i see it - choice is between the two and the alternative includes at least one more option. :)
 

kwaw

gregory said:
But the sign itself is an image conveying the intended meaning - those that Helen Keller used were tactile images rather than visual - but still images. That is exactly my point.

Images may be signs, but signs are not confined to images, so I would say that Keller used tactile signs that conveyed meaning - and in a way are we not all born into a cacophony of meaningless signs impressing themselves upon our senses - and in that sense say that signs come first, then meaning? Do we construct meaning via storing up a stock of how those signs respond or adapt to our responses to them?

RiccardoLS said:
What I wanted to say... is that we do not discover or learn the relationship between image and meaning: we *build* it.

Perhaps we may think of the relationship between sign and meaning as its 'language'. There is a piece by Carruthers on the learning of Latin in the middle ages which I am fond of quoting whenever given the opportunity, I hope the repetition is not too out of place here, for though it is about the language of latin we may apply it to other languages too, including the language of tarot italics mine:

Quote:
"For whatever the changes in curriculum, in learning to read Latin
the elementary procedure was to build up from the shortest units
(letters and syllables) to longer and yet longer ones: words, and
phrases, and then sentences.

"This pedagogy had at least two consequences that are strange to
modern concepts of language learning. First, the tendency throughout
the middle ages is to see words in the first instance as single
letters variously combined in syllables, rather than to comprehend
them at once as semantic units. Words are thus understood to be
constructions made up out of syllable, not simplexes of meaning.


"Meaningful signs result from a 'play' of non-semantic units, in a
way akin to graphic design or musical design made up of tone and
pitch and length. The elementary pedagogy of Latin pre-disposed
anyone who underwent it to first recognise letters in patterns of
syllables. A second consequence of this basic pedagogy is the tendency
to view knowledge less as a 'language' in our sense of that word,
whose rational units are semantically whole and only referential or
conceptual in function, and more as involving recombinant sets of
design elements, whose units are sub-semantic 'signs' of all sorts
that make meanings (rather than necessarily 'having' them) in
constantly varying combinations with other 'signs'.


"The result must have been to give earliest education the aspect of a
calculational game, in which pattern recognition was a key to
success. Intricate chains of stories, woven together in the
activities of memory, are a characteristic medieval habit of mind
that is not accidental, nor the manifestation of some time-spirit
or 'mentality'.
It was learned in school from texts like the
Psychomachia. Like a tuning fork, the textual trope reverberates in
the culture made personal memories of those who read it. So a
reader's memory, not confined to worries about 'the author's intended
meaning,' is freed to roam its memorial symphony, 'gathering up'
harmonies and antithesis in the compositional activity which Hugh of
St. Victor described as 'meditation,' the highest kind of study,
that "takes the soul away from the noise of earthly business" (such
as grammatical commentary) and "renders his life pleasant indeed" who
makes a practice of it.
Intrepretation can then become a form of
prayer, a journey through memory like that Augustine took with his
mother Monica, by means of which, at moments, the soul seems to
recollect beyond itself, to find out God's own sweetness."

End quote from:
"The Craft of Thought: Meditation, rhetoric and the making of images,
400-1200" (Cambridge University Press 1998) by Mary Carruthers,p.146 -
148.
 

gregory

Does that all not still allow us to build upon the meanings, though ? Just as Latin is not (so my sainted mother tells me) a dead language, nor is the language of tarot ?

ETA why cannot a tactile sign be an image ? Just as poets have multisensory images in their work (I am living with a poet who assured me of this when I raised this whole thread with him...) why can't Helen Keller ? Seriously ?
 

kwaw

gregory said:
Does that all not still allow us to build upon the meanings, though ?

We are constantly exercised in the making (building) of meaning.

gregory said:
ETA why cannot a tactile sign be an image ?

Not saying that it cannot be, merely that it doesn't have to be.
 

gregory

kwaw said:
We are constantly exercised in the making (building) of meaning.
Exactly. And does every earlier shade of meaning not stay with the image/word/sign/whatever - or - DOES it ? Its past is part of its present ?

My head is beginning to hurt. I may have to retire for a little while....
 

kwaw

gregory said:
Exactly. And does every earlier shade of meaning not stay with the image/word/sign/whatever - or - DOES it ?

Without some continuity there would be no language - but the meaning of words do change over time of course, sometimes to mean something completely opposite, which can cause misunderstanding and I am sure most of some age will notice the changes of language even across generations without need of far distant examples from chaucer or shakespeare ;)

gregory said:
Its past is part of its present ?

And the present is part of its past?
 

moderndayruth

gregory said:
Exactly. And does every earlier shade of meaning not stay with the image/word/sign/whatever - or - DOES it ? Its past is part of its present ?

My head is beginning to hurt. I may have to retire for a little while....
The same here. Even if Pikachus won the battle against Bulbasaurs or viceversa would that make them better Tarot readers or would it just show that one of the tribes were better equipped with quotations of third partie's opinions and experiences? What's the meaning of it? If Pikachus convert to Bulbasaurs's faith or viceversa what do we get as a final result? Some canonical Tarot text to which we all oblige from now on?
I am with Greg, retiring...
 

kwaw

RiccardoLS said:
What I wanted to say... is that we do not discover or learn the relationship between image and meaning: we *build* it.

r.


In short, I tend to agree "that we build it" and that it is like the cathedral at Barcelona, under constant construction and forever unfinished, and all the more marvellous for it.