Return of the Thoth to the West

chriske

Greg Stanton said:
What I HEARD (don't know if it's true) is that the OTO sued several publishers, including US Games, claiming that the Thoth tarot images were their intellectual property. This is why the deck has not been available for some time.

If it's true, I will have lost what very little respect I had left for that organization. Both authors of that deck are dead -- it was their property. So is the OTO exactly like the Church of Scientology now? Run by bullies with spurious claims on the legacy of its guru? I hope the OTO lost and that US Games and other publishers are not paying them for the "rights".

Hi Greg,

I am not an OTO member so please don't think that I have any axe to grind. But I agree with Carl at Llewellyn:

"I would say that the copyright issues really never were settled, but who wants to fight the OTO people? And ethically, I think they have the most legitimate claim anyway. Frieda Harris never got anything out of it."

Direct quote from his letter to Mary last year. Good enough for me.

Chriske
 

arcana17

Greg Stanton said:
What I HEARD (don't know if it's true) is that the OTO sued several publishers, including US Games, claiming that the Thoth tarot images were their intellectual property. This is why the deck has not been available for some time.
That's what I heard several times too.

Greg Stanton said:
If it's true, I will have lost what very little respect I had left for that organization. Both authors of that deck are dead -- it was their property. So is the OTO exactly like the Church of Scientology now? Run by bullies with spurious claims on the legacy of its guru? I hope the OTO lost and that US Games and other publishers are not paying them for the "rights".
Trying to make a quick buck on a almost 70 years old deck and forcing the deck out of stock for almost 1 year is inadmissible in my book.

I'm ready to vote with my wallet. Lon Milo Duquette is a prominent member of the OTO since 1975. Michael Osiris Snuffin is a member of the OTO since 1996. Both of them wrote highly recommended books on the Thoth; I'll pass and buy something else.
 

Grigori

Greg Stanton said:
What I HEARD (don't know if it's true) is that the OTO sued several publishers, including US Games, claiming that the Thoth tarot images were their intellectual property. This is why the deck has not been available for some time.

If it's true, I will have lost what very little respect I had left for that organization. Both authors of that deck are dead -- it was their property. So is the OTO exactly like the Church of Scientology now? Run by bullies with spurious claims on the legacy of its guru? I hope the OTO lost and that US Games and other publishers are not paying them for the "rights".

My understanding is that the deck has been hard to get not because USG were sued, but because the OTO won. Crowley left his work to the OTO in his will, and it has now been determined to be their property. Crowley was an undischarged bankrupt at the time of his death, so likely this is the reason why people got away with freely using his material for so long before now.

It's no different to any other intellectual property that falls into someones estate and is passed to their nominated heirs, until such time as it falls into the public domain. Folks who were paying or prepared to pay royalties are still selling the deck without any problems, and its rare in the west only because the market is monopolized by USG. I think we should remember before jumping to defend the poor people at USG, that they are a company that is renowned for vigilantly enforcing their own dubious copyright on the RWS deck, whose creators died somewhat before the Thoth's did. Wonderful that they've got a taste of their own medicine back, a lovely bit of Adjustment for them I say :)

Maybe the extra few dollars will help the OTO publish more of Crowley's work rather than fund the creation of a "Cats and Puppies hugging Bunnnies" deck to make more dollars for USG. I'm not a fan of the OTO's publishing history, and they're a bit lawsuit-happy, but I think it's daft to argue that Crowley should be the only person in the history of publishing whose work falls into the public domain immediately after his death. Though if we can apply that standard, I'll be bringing out my own edition of the Mickey Mouse drinks Coca Cola in Narnia Tarot in the summer of 2012 ;)
 

gregory

Grigori said:
I'll be bringing out my own edition of the Mickey Mouse drinks Coca Cola in Narnia Tarot in the summer of 2012 ;)
I am TOP of your preorder list for that one, please :D

Also I absolutely agree and think the whole thing very funny.

Then again, I do have several Thoths ! and it wouldn't have been so funny were it not that the deck has been freely available throughout and still is.
 

Le Fanu

It would balance things out nicely if US Games threatened to sue for RWS ownership and then were threatened to be sued over Thoth ownership.

I don't know the full detail but one thing I'd bet my life on; if US Games could proclaim ownership of the Thoth and do a cheeky backdated copyright somehow, then they would.
 

Greg Stanton

Sorry, but it just makes me think of a creepy cult that sues a lot: $cientology. So now a marginally cool esoteric fringe group is now the equivalent of a sue-happy cult, in my mind anyway.
 

cardlady22

Like rif says, tarobearslair is my Seller of choice. Well worth supporting IMHO.
 

Debra

I'm seeing the large 3-magus ones as a "preorder" for US $18.45 + $3.56 shipping on e-bay--seller says it's due in to the US by Feb. 18.

Bad news I guess for those who have been making big bux by selling off their US Games Crowley decks :p
 

RLG

rif said:
Um, it hasn't left the west yet. It's continuously been in stock here:
http://www.tarobearslair.com/aleister-crowley-thoth-tarot.aspx

I post this every time this subject comes up. :)

As of this writing, I see 23 standard sized decks in stock. They are the AGM blue box.


Dwtw
Of course, the Blue Box has always been available. But at $39.50 vs. $25 for the exact same (deluxe size) deck from USG, its a boon to cost-conscious buyers that the Thoth will be available in the US again, not just in online stores but in your local Borders, et. al.
As noted many times in these forums, the Thoth has never gone out of print. And likely never will.

Litlluw
RLG