The Bohemian Gothic Tarot

Beware! Baba is hazardous for your health!

This coming deck appears just as I have decided to quit collecting.
If it is half as beautifull as the victorian romantic, this will still be a must!
Dark victorian imagery, deep feeling, shadows and silver ink.
A treat is coming!

Gee, I am longing for the fall!

Baba, your artistry is just irresitible... Like your devil in your Victorian romantic tarot.

LB~I certainly can't speak for Karen, but I feel the same goes for all artists of all kinds. One can recognize a piece of work by Mozart, and Bach often sounds the same. Ciro's 2 decks are certainly very similar, though not exact. Dickens' novels have similar themes, and Hardy's even more so. If you go to a museum you can easily pick out all of Renoir's works from the rest and sometimes it is difficult to figure out which Pre-Raphaelite did a certain painting, as so many look similar in style. And Shakespeare certainly stood on his own with similar language, themes, repetitious phrases, etc.

An artist could go nuts and try every single style, every single colour in the rainbow, try various mediums, various themes. But in the end, the best of them find their niche. That niche, or style, or whatever you want to call it is what becomes not only their trademark, but their own challenge. Magic Realist Press did the BBC's. Then they decided some cards needed a change-they had a better view of things, they made those changes, thus the 2nd edition. The Victorian Romantic is lovely and lush, but has the balance of both light and dark cards. The Bohemian Gothic takes on an entirely new world~remaining in a similar art style that makes them so unique from other artists~and explores a much darker theme, not yet undertaken by Magic Realist Press. You find your nitch and then you try to perfect it. I find it exciting. Like discovering an unpublished Bronte novel. Similar language, similar style, but a new story and theme. I can't imagine this not being an exciting adventure and challenge for them when only looking at a few cards has me mesmorized and already sifting through the layers of imagery and imagining how I would read each card, myself. In a sense we are all artists finding our niche and trying to expand, grow and perfect it. An athlete could try out every sport there is, but if they want perfection, they need to settle down to one and put everything they've got into that one interest.

As for the drooling and the googaa's, that is how one often expresses their delight and their thanks for someone creating a work of art that speaks volumes to them. I, for one, plan to continue the drooling, because this deck is perfect for me. It mixes my love for art, Victorian themes and the mystique all in one, and as I am not too fond of many of the artwork in some of the darker decks, this will finally give me the opportunity to delve into that realm with artwork that I can relish.

In terms of drooling, yes, I do find it a waste of reading space. There was a time on this site when there was some great discussions going on - there were great studies and very interesting comment to get your teeth stuck into. But as time moves on, there is more interest in buy, buy, buy, and less interest in actually doing anything with a deck before moving on. You wait and see how long, after publication, that this deck gets dropped for the next flavour of the month.

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LittleBuddha, I both agree with you and disagree with you.

First, the disagreements :

1) Having glanced at FaireMaiden's profile, I note that she writes in this style because she is a Renaissance Faire enthusiast. I'd be VERY surprised if she used it in her everyday dealings with people.

2) That baba decks possess a certain "something" is undoubtedly true-the romanticism, the love of Central European art, the quirky humour, the very high production standards. But are they repeating themselves ? I have all their decks and I really don't think they are. Ploughing a deep furrow, possibly. In ten years' time (gulp !) I would expect their work to look rather different but to still exhibit, almost certainly, some of the same preoccupations and the same high production standards. Art evolves, artists evolve. It does seem amazing to consider that the Tarot of Prague, the very first baba deck, only saw the light of day in the summer of 2003. That's less than 4 years ago.

And, though there have been dark ELEMENTS in the previous decks (as I would want and expect in a balanced Tarot) this new up-and-coming Gothic deck is taking the whole dark thing to a new level. Am I right to assume by the way, Karen, that some of it will be rather tongue-in-cheek, in the manner of the Vampuss book ?


Okay, now the agreements :

I do think there is too much of "Oh-when-can-I buy-the next-new-deck ?" on this Forum of late. Of course it is exciting when we realize something well-made and lovely is in the works (I'm very pleased to see the Bohemian Gothic in the offing, and am also counting the days until the Gold Edition of the BBC lands on my doorstep) but I do agree with you, LittleBuddha, that it's sad to just see so many decks regarded as must-haves and flavour-of the-month. If a deck is really good , it's worth returning to again and again. And again. If it's gimmicky/poorly-made/poorly-produced, why bother with it ?

It seems to me that part of what LB was saying, is that there's a certain repetitiveness (beyond artistic consistency) and an accompanying flatness to the BG. I could be very wrong here, though, so everyone take this with a grain of salt.

I don't know about the repetitiveness, since I don't own any MR decks, in spite of their gorgeousness and my personal attraction to the Fantastic Menagerie. The flatness, however, I tend to agree with.

There is so much potential to this deck, and from the few cards Karen, whom I do not know, has shared, there is also a lot of realized potential. It looks to me like the surface is being skimmed on what this deck can offer, and that boundaries of where it can go are still in the process of being tested.

It can be so easy to go over the top with the Victorian Gothic theme, especially since its been rehashed and even parodied nearly endlessly. The cards, so far, show great restraint - they could have easily been campy. It doesn't take much for the genre to go there.

Perhaps there is too much restraint? Not enough comfort zones being broken?

When Victorian horror first hit the market, it provided very real chills to its audience. These days, when it's become a cliche, it may be difficult to disentangle nostalgia from creepiness. These images are safe because we are already familiar with the archetypes presented.

To a Victorian, the image of a woman dancing with skeletons would have been a vastly different experience than to any one of us. What Karen and Alex are doing looks like a distinct attempt to recreate the momentum such a picture might've had for its original audience, which is a monumental task IMO.

I think this "flatness" I'm mentioning has a lot to do with the familiarity with the genre a lot of fans of this deck have. For some, it's pitch perfect. Others, like me, will want the envelope pushed as far as it can go.

Of course, this deck isn't copletely finalized. As such, it shouldn't be held up to the stadards of a finished product. I believe she already mentioned that is still a work in progress.

That being said, these are all points of discussion.

Oh dear. Well, please let's not turn this thread into something confrontational. All opinions are valued by us. Thank-you to several people for the defence - but also thank-you to LB for coming out with an honest attack. I know that in his case it's a real and sincere opinion, not just someone "having a go" - and I'm glad that he gives his opinion in such an honest way.

Is this deck like our others? No, I think that (apart from the general "baba studio style" which of course is just "us" and part of what we are) it only has obvious similarities with The Victorian Romantic - this is where the whole habit of calling it "The Dark Sister" comes from.

In a way the decks will be related to one another. Gothic decks aren't for reading with every day, whereas I find The Victorian Romantic is just a very rewarding day-to-day deck - it's the one I use most as it can go so deep emotionally. But on the days you need a deck for something quite different - exploring dark fantasies and things that are more forbidden and hidden, then The Bohemian Gothic will come into its own. I think both decks - in use - may have something to offer one another.

In practice, I think the two will look related but very different - in fact the technique we are using is a bit different this time and I think the visual style won't feel quite the same.

Is it "easy" for us? If only! No, we have worried a lot over the idea of a dark deck for four years now off and on. Alex and I both find it a very demanding thing to undertake - we seriously discussed not doing it at all as we aren't "Goth" people - just people who love certain aspects of the Gothic. But, well, in the end there isn't a dark deck out there that I feel gets the essence of Gothic as I want it to be (too much that reminds me of the film "Van Helsing", too little that reminds me of Herzog's "Nosteratu" - if you film buffs know what I mean). So that was a huge motivation for us to do the deck.

But LB is right - there is always a danger of artists beginning to rest on their laurels and starting to repeat themselves. For this reason mostly, Alex and I agreed, just after Tarot of Prague, that we would do a very limited number of decks ourselves, and after that will focus on editing and publishing decks by others. So you won't see repeats - I won't say the exact number we agreed on, but we both think it is just enough to let us say what we have to say then stop - always the best artistic decision

Interesting posts. The thread has bite.

I am off out soon, but I want to thank those who have responded considerately and open-mindedly to my post.

I appreciate your comments very much Karen. And you know I respect you and Alex I don't doubt that I will one day buy this deck to compare and contrast with the others. But in it's progress, I think that varied discussion, on a forum like this, is what AT has always been about.

And just to clarify, I hope you didn't think I meant that I thought your job was easy. I know how hard you work and the endless time and mental energy it takes up. I just meant that I wondered if the physical process, which is alike, had become less challenging in that you know it so much better now.

I know you know me. And hope you all know me better than to think I would be critical for the sake of it.

These were just questions, initially. And questions are good.

LB

Oh, and the question of whether the deck will "push the envelope"? Good question. I just hate what's happened to many dark fantasy and horror films in the last few years. I get bored rigid with ludicrous special effects and blood and gore and in-yer-face shock everywhere. The only thing I've found vaguely interesting has been Terry Gilliam sending up the whole awful genre in his "Brothers Grimm" (was it a send-up? Yes, as far as I know it was - certainly it was hysterically funny at times)

I LOVE the quieter, more insinuating, more suggestive Gothic - and I find it FAR more frightening. So this is what the deck sets out to be. It won't be "Hell Raiser 8" or "Halloween 11", but it will, I hope, have echoes of Poe as illustrated by Harry Clarke (not stylistically, but in terms of atmosphere) - and if we achieve that we'll be very happy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Clarke

Interesting thread, and it looks an interesting deck.

I find most 'gothic' or supposedly 'dark' decks pathetically cheesey.
Cartoon vampires.

This deck, from the few cards I have seen, seems to be rather stylish.
'The Dark Sister' has a lovely ring to it.
It's a shame you're not using that name.
To me (probably only to me) the 'gothic' word has all sorts of tacky, cheesey associations.

For this reason mostly, Alex and I agreed, just after Tarot of Prague, that we would do a very limited number of decks ourselves, and after that will focus on editing and publishing decks by others.

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By editing and publishing decks by others, do you mean publishing original decks by a single artist, in the manner of US Games for instance, or do you mean more of the collaged and coloured clip art style of deck that you've published in the past year?

I guess I should clarify "pushing the envelope."

I tend to be bored silly by most recent horror films. They leave little to the imagination, which is where the darkest work is done.

(Maupassant's "La Horla" comes to mind here.)

I certainly do not mean blood, guts, gore. I do however think of the genuine chill (again, that word) that reading M.R. James's "Lost Hearts" brings.

I will probably purchase this deck, if only for my fondness for atmospheric, gothic horror.

But since I have a chance to bring things up with its creators, I can't exactly hold back.

I'm more interested in exchanging ideas than criticism.