The Occult Achievement of the 20th Century-The Thoth

I find it hard to believe I am on a tarot forum sometimes.

Anyway I asked my big Brother "what do you think is the greatest Occult achievement of the 20th?"

He answered after thinking for a few moments.

Curing illness in the womb. (Occult fetal blood tests and repair)

I nearly fell over with laughter.
He is right. A lot of this thread is just......rubbish in light of the world out there.


~Rosanne

Kenshin Gordon said:

Were your statement true, that would make these chess players just about omniscient and omnipotent in the boundaries of the game, because they have already seen the outcome of the game 20 moves ahead.

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You've clearly missed the point. Knowing all the possible outcomes of a game of Chess is one thing. But the actual experience of playing one particular game is a different thing altogether.

Think of the number of times that 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 has been played over the years. Yes, we're heading into the same old Ruy Lopez opening that's been played millions of times. But it was never the same game twice, because the people, time, and location was always different.

Rosanne said:

So the Book of Thoth is a starting point and then to appreciate the deck fully one must immerse in further reading of those other books you mentioned.
Sounds like a full course in Occult studies.

~Rosanne

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O yeah! That's the way I see it. Except one may not start from the deck or the book ... one might encounter the qabbalah first, or the Book of the Law ... or Magick Book 4 ... whatever, it's all connected. Thats why one cant get the big picture (in this stream of magico/philosophy) just from looking at the cards and interpreting the symbolism ... in a variant mode (shall we say?)

I see all of this system grafted on to the Tarot ... like a big complex 'tracing board'. That's why I think it is A great occult achievement.

Rosanne said:

I find it hard to believe I am on a tarot forum sometimes.

Anyway I asked my big Brother "what do you think is the greatest Occult achievement of the 20th?"

He answered after thinking for a few moments.

Curing illness in the womb. (Occult fetal blood tests and repair)

I nearly fell over with laughter.
He is right. A lot of this thread is just......rubbish in light of the world out there.


~Rosanne

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Ummmm ... OCCULT. I thought we had an agreement on what we are actually talking about?

Rosanne said:

I find it hard to believe I am on a tarot forum sometimes.

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All this talk of the divine when we're supposed to be talking about divination... oh wait.... There's some kind of connection there ain't there?

Rosanne said:

I find it hard to believe I am on a tarot forum sometimes.

Anyway I asked my big Brother "what do you think is the greatest Occult achievement of the 20th?"

He answered after thinking for a few moments.

Curing illness in the womb. (Occult fetal blood tests and repair)

I nearly fell over with laughter.
He is right. A lot of this thread is just......rubbish in light of the world out there.


~Rosanne

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That is funny, and in essence you're right, it's all rubbish! But its good rubbish. Its appropriate rubbish for us Thoth dorks who want to know the nuts and bolts of the Universe and our spiritual development. Does that mean that everyone needs to study and discuss it like we do? I think not. In fact I doubt every Thelemite of today, would be reborn as a Thelemite in every future incarnation. It'd be kind of boring, wouldn't it? If everyone were into this stuff, it'd be a little upsetting to the balance of the Universe. But that's just my own theory.

The occult's role in society might be somewhat like the center of a wheel (The Wheel of Fortune?) from which spokes reach out to the outer rim in the form of music, art, literature and even movies these days. The central truth may be diluted so that its general idea is grasped by the masses at the rim, or retain its more profound mystical identity from the center, nevertheless, the center, will always move the outer rim one way or another. You could theoretically forget all the occult rubbish and instead follow closely the common threads behind man's greatest cultural achievements. Many artists work from the outside into the center of our “wheel” running only on intuition, having never read anything by Crowley.

Just look at music alone: Mozart's Magic Flute, Beethoven's 9th, Mahler's 2nd and 8th symphonies (Hell... all of them really, though the 8th is right out of Goethe's Faust), The Beatles, Frank Zappa, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden (Much of the heavy metal genre sounds like they could have been written by RHK) Those are just a few off the top of my head.

The question about occult achievement is more valid, when you stop to think about it's domino effect upon the culture outside of the occult.

Aeon418 said:

You've clearly missed the point. Knowing all the possible outcomes of a game of Chess is one thing. But the actual experience of playing one particular game is a different thing altogether.

But it was never the same game twice, because the people, time, and location was always different.

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Did you miss the rest of my post?

Kenshin Gordon said:

This would obviously be a fallacious statement (and I in no way intended to compare a master chessplayer to God) because it is not the master chessplayer who moves the pieces, but you- the master chessplayer merely anticipates your moves. Ultimately, you are the person who directly controls the outcome.

But again, attempting to rationalize an irrational force is like fitting a square into a circle. What we are simply doing is grounding the characteristics of a hypothetical force; that is, if God were as the Bible says or most religions and knelt to the rules of logic.

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Rosanne said:

He is right. A lot of this thread is just......rubbish in light of the world out there.

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Of course it is, because we all miss the point of the thread and debate on a different matter than the one at hand. Occult is everyone's workshop after all. Ask 20 occultists, and you will get 20 different answers on the same question, except if they are on the same cult.

Kenshin Gordon said:

Occult is everyone's workshop after all. Ask 20 occultists, and you will get 20 different answers on the same question, except if they are on the same cult.

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Well I think cult is harsh. I would say in this case cult of Personality.
It does make me smile that here on this thread about an occult achievement (even though I know the thread poster meant "AN" not "The") we have ended up talking about Thelema practice as if that is a natural adjunct to the Thoth deck,whereas the Book of Thoth by whats his name, is the natural adjunct. Lots of little codes and messages for the 'in the know crowd'. I understand passion. It seems to me here, that it becomes cant. What it appears to me that every 'man and woman a star' has become a clump where the reflection and the uniqueness of luminous stars or God's is lost. I don't know your individual lives and you don't know mine but lots of words show followers and that Tarot is just a side issue.
Not that you may believe me, but I read every word on this forum. It appears in general I see product development via Thelema rather than exploration of emotional intelligence via the deck. So be it. I would be less than honest if I didn't say what I believe.
Good luck with your un-clumping.
The deck is great in my eyes. The Book of Thoth is the best with it it seems to me.
As to The greatest occult achievement....??? A great achievement -The Thoth deck.
~Rosanne

Aeon418 said:

What can an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent (non)being, outside the laws of time and space actually do? The short answer is, absolutely nothing. Events, and the expereince of them, are only possible from a limited, finite, subjective point of view. So God is in a bit of a bind here. All those infinite possibilities and no way to realise them. What a shame.

Take a blank sheet of paper. This blank sheet represents the undiferentiated No-Thing. Some people like to call it God. Now pick a point within the No-Thing and draw a circle around it. Congratulations! You've just created the universe. How was it for you?

Suddenly Self and Not-Self have been created. Possibilities can now be realised and manifested from a particular point of view. You are one such point of view. What the divine wishes to experience from that point of view is called True Will. Unfortunately this illusion of finite existence is only possible through this little temporary phantasm called an ego. The ego, not seeing the big picture, doesn't want to play ball with the True Will. Instead it fearfully sits inside it's little circle and says to itself, I am I. And throughout it's little life it tries to maintain the circle (Tower) at any cost.

Now rub out the little circle. Congratulations. You've just experienced death and re-awakened to the fact that you are God, who is No-Thing.

Fancy another go? No problem. Just kick youself out of Eden, again.

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This is a excellent way to put it. People dont want to accept that they are the ones in control of the whole scenario of their existence. They prefer the power give away which is religion and all of its trappings,which states that some outside force is in charge of their progress. There is a reason why most ruling governments and monarchies through history have tried to enforce some sort of state mandated religion or teachings,it keeps people in control.

Religion appeals to people because they dont want to accept the fact that THEY are the only ones they can depend on to advance themselves spiritually. No outside agency can do this for you,you must make the choices that advance your growth.

moderator note

Hi folks

I've had a couple of people suggest we've gone a ways off topic on this thread, which I agree with. I've tried to split the thread, but its not really possible to do this in a way that makes two new threads that can exist on their own.

For pragmatism's sake I've decided not to split the thread, as this conversation while very different, is at least part of a continuing flow of discussion. Though as we continue, could be try to tie our points of view back to the start a little bit?

Thanks so much
G