"Mystical Reasons" vs Plain Common Sense Rant

Umbrae said:

Near the end of the summer (You’ll notice if you stick around long enough), we always have a spate of newbies who ask questions that us older folks find either amusing or annoying.

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Umbrae!

I was headed to post about this very phenomenon when I read your post. I think it's the beginning of the school year, schedules open up or online time increases.

That said, Closrapexa's post really resonates. Not because I'm "above" the flaky woo-woo perspective. But because it often seems that these anthropomorphizing posts indicate an instinctive sidestep of personal power/responsibility destined to blunt Occam's edge. Me personally, I'm starting to get tired of the relentless psychologizing of Tarot, but that's me.

I'd like to quote someone who may yank some chains:

“In this book it is spoken of...Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow.” Aleister Crowley

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Ramsey Dukes has a fantastic book about the utility of living your life AS IF "demons" were literal personified forces influencing every aspect of your life, but the codicil he offers is that if your world is populated with demons and you're aware of them, it is your responsibility to deal with them directly. If cards can have power, then so can any object: from votives to toilet paper. Animism doesn't displace responsibility. Eventually this thinking would seem to lead to subjective Great Chains of Being... because ranking is human nature. I only get irritated when folks don't follow their own arguments to their conclusions.

So I come down in the middle: if your deck gets mad when you try to read with it or the magick chickens aren't squeezing out eggs, then you're going to have to learn how to wrangle those spirits, which may or may not take assertive action. And if it is just paper and pigment, then you're gonna have to find the tools to tap the psychic sap on demand.

As far as I can tell, a magickal worldview is insistently interconnected and always calls into question the hard edges of all descriptive language. And if it helps woo-woos to imagine it external and pragmatists to locate it internally to face that obstacle, either way its "actual" position is inconsequential and illusory. The ultimate challenge of "Magick" is that it's completely personal and subjective. The ultimate test of "Magick" is that it must produce results.

Scion

I am one of those who doesn't believe the cards have a life of their own in the sense discussed here. I don't think they get angry at people. They are simply pieces of cardboard with pictures on them. Sometimes they smell terribly of chemicals.

The power of tarot lies in the images and what they evoke in us. Because tarot reflects familiar and age old symbols, it speaks to us in a particular way and for all of us this may be different and unique.

I personally believe that if we use cards to read for others we have a personal responsibility to know ourselves, to be aware of the human capacity to project our own stuff onto others or onto things.

My own view us that some project their own wonder/fear onto the cards and then feel that the cards are angry with me . Or that the cards themselves have miraculous qualities. People may cleanse their cards as a personal ritual if they have particular associations. In the same way, I will bring flowers into my house to create a pleasant ambience. I will burn incense and and candles for the same reason. Sometimes we need these rituals to mark a certain transition from one state of mind or place to another. Such rituals have ancient foundations.

I agree with Scion that people need to take personal responsibility for their thoughts and actions. My cards don't get angry at me. My computer does not get angry at me. My car does not get angry at me. I might sometimes imagine that they do but essentially I know that is unrealistic. The cards simple reflect images and I interpret them. My PC and car are simply mechanical things that break down through wear or neglect.

Sometimes, I think, some people on boards like this and on the internet generally pretend there is a kind of "magic" about things that is unrealistic and I suspect they do this because it gives them a sense of power. There is power in mystique and the perception of "magic". They might be well intentioned but they almost always have something to gain, either materially or psychologically. They may not even realise this themselves, although I think many do. Some people hint at science to support vaguely stated opinions but when questioned often know little about the science. I think that sometimes there is very little intellectual rigour here. I would like to see some statements backed up a little bit more with evidence or thought. That wish may not fit the prevailing culture, however.

I tend to be cynical where money is involved, and money has always been connected in some way with spiritual or religious expression. Money is more and more involved with tarot. Politics too. Please note that I am not identifying individuals but a common trend in real life and virtual communities.

Of course, this is only my opinion. And people could well suggest that I am projecting my own cynicism onto others' beliefs and behaviours. Possibly. One can never competely understand another human being. These are my observations and experience only.

One last thing. We are adults here. A different opinion is simply a different opinion. If someone is hurt by the expression of different views, then I wonder what they are doing reading tarot. I wonder what they are doing participating in a forum like this, in a world like this where communication and relationship can only thrive with the open exchange of views.

Perhaps it is somewhat an evasion of responsibility. Most of us have been taught all through the years that in order to gain things, we must appease the Gods, whether it is through rituals, prayer or other things. However, there are no Gods in Tarot, even if you feel that the information and insight gleaned from the cards is from a higher being, still the cards remain only a way to communicate with God.

Again, I am all for rituals and other things that make people feel good. I use them myself. But I do it for myself, not for the cards. When these rituals begin to become based on fear, i.e. "If I don't cleanse my cards, keep them in special cases, etc." then I feel that it is undermining what I feel Tarot is all about, development of the Self. At times for me it still amazes me that all the wonder of Tarot exists. I suppose you could call me a wide-eyed skeptic

Tarot should be a source of joy, wisdom and enlightenment, never fear or dogma.

closrapexa said:

Perhaps it is somewhat an evasion of responsibility. Most of us have been taught all through the years that in order to gain things, we must appease the Gods, whether it is through rituals, prayer or other things. However, there are no Gods in Tarot, even if you feel that the information and insight gleaned from the cards is from a higher being, still the cards remain only a way to communicate with God.

Again, I am all for rituals and other things that make people feel good. I use them myself. But I do it for myself, not for the cards. When these rituals begin to become based on fear, i.e. "If I don't cleanse my cards, keep them in special cases, etc." then I feel that it is undermining what I feel Tarot is all about, development of the Self. At times for me it still amazes me that all the wonder of Tarot exists. I suppose you could call me a wide-eyed skeptic

Tarot should be a source of joy, wisdom and enlightenment, never fear or dogma.

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Yes. And people who have real fear may be better off putting the Tarot away until they are ready and can use it with faith, joy and discernment.

Northwind said:

Yes. And people who have real fear may be better off putting the Tarot away until they are ready and can use it with faith, joy and discernment.

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But these things can be learned. I would never tell anyone who had a real desire to learn Tarot to put the cards away just becasue they didn't follow my own viewpoint. I would agree to disagree with them

Northwind said:

Yes. And people who have real fear may be better off putting the Tarot away until they are ready and can use it with faith, joy and discernment.

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I should have added humour as well. The cards were a game at first, after all. Humour is a great part of tarot.

I wouldn't suggest that people stop using tarot because they did not share my viewpoint. I suggested that people with real fear might be better off giving it a rest for a while. It's quite different.

My experience has been that people with real fear stop using the cards anyway, but may return a life time later

Sometimes...oh, what paper and ink!

I found myself curiously yearning for the yellow-paper copy of the card deck used in "Bewitched" and thought it was a cute association--using a tarot card from a deck as a make-believe credit card. I think I would find that a charming deck--well, I liked the old reruns and the cute movie...

I know it's sometimes silly to believe an old deck has something to it--I did once receive a vintage (1940s) Italian deck thrown in a lot--had smoky, stained edges, curled corners, fading in some of the ink.

This deck has character and I kind of play games with it, but don't read with it much. It's a double-sided, so every half-image or symbol card would have to have upright meanings. That's the one deck I think I'd like to sometimes personify with 'moods'--although it isn't the deck at all, it's whether I want to read with pip-and-half-picture daring.

I like the recommendation of 21 Ways to Read a Tarot Card and think this would be the perfect deck to do creative exercises with.

I enjoyed the variety of opinons and ideas.

Cerulean

Indigo Rose said:

In my Tarot journey, I believe I am getting my answers from God. I seek to have a relationship with God, and I seek guidance and understanding from Him. To this end I pray, read scripture, and use the cards for receiving communications from God: divination. However, my Tarot answers are subject first to my knowledge of God(which comes through the Holy Spirit and His Word), my faith(which comes from the heart), and my common sense(which comes from the rational mind).

In my opinion, it is a hunger for connection to the Eternal Creator which allows people to fall into deifying the Tarot cards. The cards are just paper with meaningful images created by human hands. They carry no curse, no power, and no glory. They are objects. However, the One whom I seek the answers from carries all power, all glory, and deserves all reverance.

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Agreed 100%. And if we get Divine guidance from the cards, the answers come through the cards not from the cards, a distinction I think some people can lose sight of.

Another side to it is that whatever power we have to read and understand the card meanings is in us, not in the cards. Humans innately have some pyschic ability that we can work on and help it grow. Tarot is an excellent way to do that. But that power is in us, not in the cards.

The cards are just a tool, for receiving divine guidance and improving our intuitions. And yes at the end of the day they are just cardboard with pretty pictures, the magic of finding the right answers lies elsewhere but it is not in the cards.

Babs

Nicely said, Sunchariot.

Cerulean... funny you should say that, I loved that Bewitched card too... I posted a thread a while ago trying to find it... its kind of an IJJ Swiss with a Lombardy border.

I have a new Spanish deck which I like very much, it feels good in my hands so I'm shuffling it a lot, wondering if it will get a little more worn-in! I've got a used IJJ Swiss coming in the mail, that should be interesting...

I remember a thread a while ago, I think LittleBuddha started it, yearning for that old, musty, magical deck.

Euri

Mystical power of tarot!!!

Several things for me to fuss about. Actually, you might consider the following as Emma's Rant.

First, I don't understand why some tarotists believe their way is the only real and right way to read our little bundles of jillions and jillions of atoms tastefully arranged as flat paste-board-looking tarot cards.

Isn't it interesting the way the Goddess arranges the Universe?

Whether others interpret the cards 'mystically" as opposed to the only correct way, common-sensically, does not impact the common sensers in any manner. So why do they care? Why does it stir them deeply enough that they get on ATF and write about it, falling just short of saying that the mystics have no idea what they're talking about.

Okay, maybe for you, the paste boards aren't tied into the Goddess's direct line.Or even God's. For others they are.

What difference does it make to anyone else's life?

If this posting moves Emma closer and closer to having her buttons ripped off and drummed out of the Corps, she'll be really, really sorry. But she'll go down fighting for the rights of all tarot readers to read as they damn well please. And be free from those who would have the world all one, unexplored, unlovely black and white non-mystical life.

Blessings,

Emma