I didn't even realise: Grimauds marseille (1963 version)

queenxofxwands

Hi all, been reading through loads of these posts here, and i didn't realise what a real treasure i had.Not in the monetary sense, no, but my tdm deck. Mine is bp grimauds 1963,what i am wondering is, have they stopped printing this deck? I know mine is probably from the early 70's, well, i think so, it was given to me so i cant be sure. My question i think , how long was this in publication ? Have looked but havent found an answer yet, so, if i missed the thread its in please direct me!!
 

mary ventura

Here's a wonderful thread where Coredil worked up an exhaustive list of all the printings of the Grimaud. I have one that was printed around 1969, and I found out the printing date by going through all the variations of card stock, location of copyright, color and design of the box, etc. If I remember correctly, my deck is #13

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491

Mary V
 

thinbuddha

I believe that the Grimaud has been in print continuously since 1930. As you can see in the other thread mentioned, it has gone through some transformations over those 80 years.
 

coredil

I would like to add some comments.

1. LINE DRAWINGS
The line drawings of the 1930 deck by Paul Marteau are exactly the line drawings of the Arnoult-Grimaud deck published in 1891 by Grimaud.
Notice that the Arnoult-Grimaud deck from 1891 is a Besancon type, so there is Junon and Jupiter instead of Papesse and Pape.
It was called "Tarot italien"

This is the deck with "Arnoult 1748" on the two of Deniers

What Paul Marteau did, is:
- to reintroduce the Papesse and the Pape
- a kind of new coloring of the cards.
He also made a few very minimal corrections here and there on tiny details of the line drawings.

Considering this and the fact that the Marteau deck is still in print today, one can say that this deck is in print since 1891!

2. LINE DRAWINGS MAJORS
The line drawings of the majors of the "Arnoult Grimaud" deck are identical to an older deck with the same mention "Arnoult 1748", but printed by Lequart.
Notice that Lequart has been bought by Grimaud in 1891.
It means that Grimaud had access to the print plates (whatever they were) of Lequart.
The line drawings of the "Arnoult lequart" are different from the "Arnoult Grimaud" and have a lot of similarity to the Conver deck without being exactly the same.
The Arnoult-Lequart is also a Besancon deck with Junon and Jupiter.

This means the majors line drawings of the Paul Marteau deck are identical (except for Junon and Jupiter) to the line drawings of the Arnoult-Lequart deck.
This deck is usually dated from 1890 but it is not clear when this deck has been first printed, but definitely prior to 1891.

3. PAPESSE, PAPE
One thing stays not clear: where do the Pape and Papesse images came from?
They are probably a rework of the Conver-Camoin pictures.
They are very Conver-like and one should not forget that Grimaud and Camoin made a fusion in 1888 and Camoin had (and still has) the woodblock of a Conver deck.
This means that Grimaud had since 1888 access to the original woodblocks of the Conver-Camoin.

4. COLORING
The recoloring of Paul Marteau is possibly not really a completely new creation.
As we know, according to Camoin, the bi-centenial edition of the Conver-Camoin has been printed directly from the original woodblocks.
Further and still according to Camoin, the coloring used for the bi-centenial edition seems to follow the coloring of the 18 century.
The coloring of Paul Marteau is for mostly all cards identical to Camoin coloring!

As a side note to the coloring question, one may mention the interesting theory of Flornoy about this.
Flornoy believes that Paul Marteau wrote his book and his interpretations of the cards based on the coloring of a Camoin-Conver deck.
As the still printed tarot Italien (as it was called at this time) did not match the coloring of the Camoin-Conver deck, it was necessary to change the color of the pictures of the Tarot Italien in order to match the meanings of Marteau, otherwise, it would have been necessary to rewrite the book!

I am not sure if this is true as Flornoy theory is based on the existence of an early version of Marteaus book with the Camoin-Conver pictures (prior to the printing of the deck)
I indeed do have a copy of Marteaus book (see http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=782619&postcount=58 from the Marteau TDM thread) with Camoin-Conver cards glued on each page but the printing of the book is from ... 1970!

CONCLUSION
Though indeed Paul Marteau seems to have made some personal corrections, one should not forget where does the deck come from:
- The Arnoult-Lequart deck from 1890
- the Arnoult-Grimaud deck from 1891
- and last but not least the Camoin-Conver from 1760.

I find it great that we can follow a part of the the history of this deck which is still in print today and has always been in print and not only from 1930 but from 1891!
This is a great difference with reprint of historical decks that once disapeared.
It is a real living deck :)

Best regards
 

queenxofxwands

Thanks everyone for your replies, yes @ mary v i have looked through there, only i dont have the box, so its hard to be sure. Once again, thankyou all very much for your replies :)
 

Rafaël

small addition

Hi all,

Thanks a lot Coredil for sharing all the stuff you know about the TdM and the Grimaud tradition. It inspired me and helped me to acquire my small collection.

I've seen a Marseille version of the TdB Arnoult Lequart. Yes indeed, one with La Papesse and Le Pape instead of Junon and Jupiter. Me neither I didn't know it existed but it does!! The owner will probably show it on the net in a few months, but I saw it with my own eyes already :))

For those amongst you who want to see other pictures of an Arnoult Lequart than those on Coredil's exellent post, take a look at this new blog: http://lematsblog.blogspot.com/

And, heu..., Happy Easter to everybody ;-)
Rafaël
 

Luminosa

Hi everybody,

I have just read this thread and seen the site recommended site by Rafael. Have noticed that Lequart Magician is holding something else than the little yellow disk of other Marseille renditions. Does anybody know what this Magician is holding?

Thanks,

Luminosa
 

Bernice

Le Bateleur appears to be holding a little cup. Possibly he's performing the cup & ball trick?


Bee :)
 

Bertrand

Hello,
Rafaël said:
I've seen a Marseille version of the TdB Arnoult Lequart. Yes indeed, one with La Papesse and Le Pape instead of Junon and Jupiter. Me neither I didn't know it existed but it does!! The owner will probably show it on the net in a few months, but I saw it with my own eyes already :))
that's excellent news, this will definitely help trace the origin of Marteau's papesse and pape.

Thanks for sharing pictures on your blog too !

Bertrand
 

Luminosa

Hi Bernice,

Yeah, it seems a small cup, but what do you think is the symbolism behind that, performing tricks only? (hahah, I agree that there are tricks and TRICKS). I think there has got to be something more sophisticated and powerful in it because we are dealing with the great Magician, the adorable Hermes himself. On the other renditions, I see the yellow button as the Solar Disk (symbol of immortality). What then has this small cup to do with the solar disk, if anything? If nothing, what would it mean?

Thanks,