Minchiate Knights

Going through the Williams Minchiate lately, card by card. And I'm stymied by the knights. Any thoughts on the hybrids? Aside from the Knight of Swords and Knight of Staves they aren't straightforward centaurs, and in the historical reproductions the Knight of Staves isn't even a centaur, but seems to have different back paws.

I was just wondering why the animals or part-animals are like they are. Is there some significance, or historical precedent that I'm missing?

Animalism? Perhaps cards which signify an element of metamorphosis? I have no idea really, I'm just thinking out loud, but I do think that centaurs and the like in the Classical world would have been considered alongside other metamorphasised (?) beasts.

I like the idea of them signifying aspects in transformation/ metamorphosis such as in the tales of Ovid.

Whatever they signify, I just love these contorting warriors!

Interesting point, Le Fanu, about the metamorphosis. I hadn't considered that, but just assumed that they were hybrid creatures in their own right.

So looking at the Williams Minchiate knights, and also from the Fiorentine, here's what I can see so far. All of the knights are human from the waist up. But from the waist down is where it gets confusing:

- Knight of Staves is a straightforward centaur in the Williams version. But looking at the Fiorentine, that's not quite right. Historically, he had the front feet of a horse (hence appearing as a centaur in Williams' deck, I guess), but the back paws and tail of a lion.

- Knight of Cups appears to have the same form in both versions I looked at. Front paws are that of a lion, but instead of back paws he has a fish tail that he rests on. This makes me think of Capricorn, even though the symbol for that sign is half-fish, half-goat. This one is the most confusing of the four for me.

- Knight of Swords is a straightforward centaur. Bottom half is a horse in its entirety.

- Knight of Coins is half-man, half-lion. A sphinx, perhaps?

More research coming, including into the metamorphosis angle ...

Interesting! I think I'll join you researching.

Goody, I'll save you a spot by the fireplace in the library.

Not necessarily related to any historical precedent, but here is a quote from Mi-Shell in another thread about the Knight of Cups. I thought it was interesting.

Mi-Shell said:

To me that one looks emotionaly torn asunder.
"Am I Fish?
Am I fowl?
With the wings so low on the back he can not fly - nor can he swim.
With Lion's paws and this tail he can not run....
He is stuck and needs to wonder.....

Click to expand...

Can't wait to get on this; just waiting for the weekend...

But, JD, do you have the Williams' Minchiate book? The woodcuts are from the Carte Fine All Leone (aka "Bologna") Minchiate. (Actually I lovingly use the one you traded me!) Maybe we should agree on which decks to use here? In our case, the Williams and/or Bologna?

Good point.

Right now I'm using the Williams, because it's one that was mailed here to me by a lovely AT'er and my Al Leone is in limbo. But I've been relying on scans of the Fiorentine (the Il Meneghello one) as well, because it's my favourite.

But okay, let's look at the Williams and the Al Leone, then.

Williams: http://stregalamia.multiply.com/photos/album/285/Minchiate_Tarot
Al Leone: http://trionfi.com/l/d0yyyy.php?decknr=5114

Although, the Knight of Staves in the Al Leone is now the bottom half of a lion, without the front legs of a horse. This knight has an identity crisis across the decks ...

jackdaw* said:

- Knight of Cups appears to have the same form in both versions I looked at. Front paws are that of a lion, but instead of back paws he has a fish tail that he rests on. This makes me think of Capricorn, even though the symbol for that sign is half-fish, half-goat. This one is the most confusing of the four for me.

Click to expand...

I think The Knight of Cups is a Typhon:
http://www.spiritalchemy.com/img/lrandom/typhon.jpg

This is quite interesting to me because I often use the parable of Cupid and Venus when interpreting Pisces in this deck. The myth is that they transformed themselves into fish; who got intertwined and later had to be rescued by Zeus; to escape the Typhon.

Digging now into myths of the Typhon. Hard to reconcile with my impressions of this one.