Aeon418
The intention behind Crowley's remark was that you add your own insights to the existing foundation.Umbrae said:
If you never bother commiting them to memory they never become yours. They stay Crowley's.
How to appreciate Crowley?
Rosanne
Umbrae said:
Hi A Bit of Anathema ! (Funny I do not see you that way- I must be walking backwards facing you
)The whole thread question was "How to appreciate Crowley... and would like to hear some others opinions on how "Crowley the man" affects your use of the Thoth deck."
This is why I posted on this thread. Crowley 'the Man' was in part author, part public figure, part a whole lot of things- like all of us. In using Tarot and encouraging others to do the same- here in my country (I cannot speak about where others live) His reputation precedes him and brings up many negative things about Tarot. This affect on Tarot is what I am concerned about- and think that if people could get past that and use the Thoth deck- they may want to go further- fine! Great! Wonderful! As Teheuti says about reading Crowley "all the more the Merrier" - but if Crowley is an initial hindrance to your using Tarot or even stays that way- you do not need him- and so you do not need to reconcile Tarot and Crowley the Man. Ignore the connection. You may get as much from your Tarot use anyway.
~Rosanne
Umbrae
Crowley loved contradictions. Using them (IMO) creates a fertile ground upon which higher thought can be cultivated (it also provides the fertile ground upon which Aeon418 and myself consistently disagree).
Some find AC’s declarations to be literal.
Some find AC’s declarations to be humorous.
Some find the positions proof he was a kook and to be ignored.
I find that if we accept "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law", then my viewpoint and Aeon418’s viewpoint although apparently irreconcilable, to be simultaneously correct.
Crowley could be seen in his day as a libertine. Now we’d see him as fairly normal. His views that governmental imposed laws dictating morality were dead, would now considered beyond discussion.
Some find AC’s declarations to be literal.
Some find AC’s declarations to be humorous.
Some find the positions proof he was a kook and to be ignored.
I find that if we accept "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law", then my viewpoint and Aeon418’s viewpoint although apparently irreconcilable, to be simultaneously correct.
Crowley could be seen in his day as a libertine. Now we’d see him as fairly normal. His views that governmental imposed laws dictating morality were dead, would now considered beyond discussion.
ravenest
BrightEye said:
A clear and intelligent insight! Thankyou.
ravenest
Rosanne said:
To get back to the basics, I feel there is only one real response to the first part of your question. Let me put it this way; what is the best way (and possibly the only REAL way) to appreciate an orange?
You have to eat it. You can listen to what others think about oranges ... you could try all those new orange type drinks on the market (probably no more than 20% orange plus other nasty additives), you can look and sniff it. But the BEST way is to eat it. You cannot understand what A.C.'s system will do for you unless you undertake it yourself ... just try a part of it ... say Liber Resh ... give it a fair trial and commitment, and then one can appreciate, partially, what it is about (Liber Resh that is).
The second part of the question ;
Someone can be a complete A.H. and if they say or do one thing I find worthwhile, then I will treat that thing like gold ... I dont care about the rest. I dont expect to assay the gold I find against the persons whole character and history ... but apparently some do.
Some 'teachers' I am dead set against, I will deride them and expose them if I can. This type has a bad history and character but teaches dross, not gold ... I search but cant find a speck of gold.
Foe example; one modern 'guru' is quiet well known to have had sex with his underage 'students' or chelas, and worse, the children of his chelas. This isn't vindictive gossip and hearsay, the students and chelas quiet openly declare this has happened to them, they dont seem to worried about it. Now if this guru had come up with some brilliant discovery or hypothesis X, that I appreciated, I'd be saying that Guru ... is a compleate A.H. and a kiddy F***er to boot! He should be locked up and the key thrown away (or much worse), but that hypothesis X of his is brilliant, I use it every day. Some people luv and worship this guy, they down play the carnal rape stuff and believe in him becasue he can do dodgy stage magic tricks
Now take Bagwahn Shree Rajneesh as another example. I am not and never was into the guy at all. A lot of what he wrote seemed mundane and pretty boring to me ( as it seemed to be neo-Reichian psychology dressed up in Indian robes), he also wrote about the Sufis, but I'd rather read Reich and Rumi than some self proclaimed guru raving on about Reich and Rumi (and maybe not even giving them credit). But the guy was honest, he sat there in front of the whole guru club and told them to their face he was ripping them off because that is what they wanted. So overall, I admire the guy. But not his teaching.
I guess what I am saying is that gold is gold whether you find it in sh*t, mud or on a velvet maroon cushion. And sh*t, mud and velvet maroon cushions dont change their nature just because they have a lump of gold sitting on them. But honesty helps ... it helps an aweful lot!
But I know others feel different, they want their gold and gems to come from the jewelery shop, where everything is nice and polished and clean and perfect (and of course, behind the scenes it isnt ... that's just the projection ... it's often about making a big profit off you).
Rosanne
Good analogy- but hey twas not my question- it was Similia way back three years ago-which is a long time on forum time and growth issues.ravenest said:
I cannot get to tell people this when they are saying "Hey Crowley is a misfit, Crowley is Satanist, Crowley is an 'whatever'(usually cult leader or con artist)-A discussion at that point is pointless
I know it is misinformation and perhaps sometimes fear. What I tell them is "Try using a deck like Thoth- in whatever capacity you want to- you do not need Crowley." I know they will find some gold in the use thereof. They then may want to pan for more- or go to the jewelery store- whatever.In America it seems that bad mouthing or trashing Tarot is in the main about perceived anti- Christianity or witchcraft- that's their problem. My problem here in my country is that Tarot use (whatever capacity) is looked on like the Victorians looked upon Crowley; thus transferred to them if they use Tarot. One big Spiritual or Physical con! Because Crowley the Man was known by his notorious actions,- not his words.
One has to get the person near the cushion, shit, mud or velvet in the first place- I say Look- try the Thoth it is beautiful- knowing all along, when they pick it up- underneath is the gold. As is under other Tarot decks. Then they will tell one person who will tell one person and so on. Job done.
Thanks for your post.
~Rosanne
suedeheadsmiths
Crowley The Man
Hmm I just purchased Lon Milo Du Quette's Understanding Crowley's Thoth Tarot and have read some the first five chapters and I'm totally enthralled. I always take a lot of what was written about Crowley with a grain of salt, including his own biographical stuff. I'll admit I'm too simple minded to understand most of his writings, but I do know the Thoth Tarot is just astounding. I guess since he's a major hero and influence on one of my ultimate heroes, it's easier for me to just brush aside alot of stuff about him. Plus I admire anybody who's Mother nicknamed them The Beast. I just think he was a misunderstood genius like alot of other people I worship and leave it at that.
Hmm I just purchased Lon Milo Du Quette's Understanding Crowley's Thoth Tarot and have read some the first five chapters and I'm totally enthralled. I always take a lot of what was written about Crowley with a grain of salt, including his own biographical stuff. I'll admit I'm too simple minded to understand most of his writings, but I do know the Thoth Tarot is just astounding. I guess since he's a major hero and influence on one of my ultimate heroes, it's easier for me to just brush aside alot of stuff about him. Plus I admire anybody who's Mother nicknamed them The Beast. I just think he was a misunderstood genius like alot of other people I worship and leave it at that.
ZenMusic
>> what is the best way (and possibly the only REAL way) to appreciate an orange?
no, because you already know enough about an orange to safely eat it..
...
you'd have to say.... what is the best way (and possibly the only REAL way) to appreciate this xxxxx unknown plant.....
will you eat it now?
(follow up to come)
no, because you already know enough about an orange to safely eat it..
...
you'd have to say.... what is the best way (and possibly the only REAL way) to appreciate this xxxxx unknown plant.....
will you eat it now?
(follow up to come)
Abrac
I'm glad you're enjoying DuQuette's book. It does contain a few good gems. My only problem with it is it only offers one perspective, the O.T.O.'s. That's fine I guess as long as you realize that going in.suedeheadsmiths said:
chriske
Abrac said:
Hey Abrac. I don't think Lon's book is a manifesto for the OTO really. But I would say that there are a lot of people in the OTO who have dedicated most of their adult lives to reading Crowley and their opinions are worth knowing. I think we are very fortunate to have some of them here (both OTO present and past) to share their knowledge.
