Aeon418
If I have seen further than others it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants. ~ Isaac Newton
But if you want to re-invent the wheel...
But if you want to re-invent the wheel...
How to appreciate Crowley?
Rosanne
Aeon418 said:
Muhawahwa Aeon- don't often catch you out!
Wrong Quote for the subject.
It is about the advance of science- a cumulative process in which each generation builds upon the discoveries of it's predecessors- it is a collabrative march forward- not slavishly following the same thesis- it is not reinventing the wheel- it is improving the already invented wheel- in a methodical expansive way.
Issac was meaning that if he could have seen the improvements down the line by individual thought and methodical process.
~Rosanne
Abrac
Crowley wrote many things, a lot of it contradictory. I think people find whatever they are looking for really.
Grigori
Rosanne said:
Rosanne how do you see these as being different? I see them as the same thing so am a little confused by this post. You reminded me of the motto Crowley gave the A.A, making the point that a student of magick should be using the same scientific method.
A synthesis of ideas like 777 exists for that reason, to bring some avenue of measurement and standardisation to ideas. Which can then be built on and expanded or rejected. I find things like 777 really useful, not because I want to memorize any of it, but looking at the "data" to see the pattern behind it is educational in itself.
Abrac said:
I think is really true, we are all attracted to what best sits with the predjudices we already have. Many things appeal to me so I focus on them, many don't and so I discard them. One thing I've been thinking about about lately is the time of some of Crowley's writings. Like any body of work there is change that comes with time, the opinions of elderly Crowley, are not the same as the writings of young Crowley. So some of us will be attracted to his earlier opinions, and some of us his later. I think finding consistency in anyone whose approach to life was to meticulously record and publish each thought is an impossible feat.
I've was reading an article from Poke Runyon this week, and he carries on rather a lot about Crowley's published experiments with the Goetia (obviously, Runyan being all about the Goetia). runyan focusses on Crowley's early failure to bring a spirit to visable appearance, as a sign that Goetic work is hypnotic; and also Crowley's introduction to the Goetia (where he identifies the spirits as portions of the human brain) as justification for a psychological approach to Goetic work. Both stories contradict Crowley's later published work where he claims success with the methods, and says it really doesn't matter if the spirits are real or imagined.
Maybe the key for some people to find value in Crowley, is to focus on one particular "era" of his work. His later work would more easily fit with the tarot as that is when the tarot was created, so comparing it to his early writings is bound to cause conflicts.
Rosanne
Hi Similia - it was the using of the Isaac newton's quote to justify not re-inventing the wheel- slavishly following one view and not expanding on it- taking it further. That is not what Umbrae was saying.similia said:
Umbrae said this...
which is not re-inventing the wheel- it is expanding and creating, building on that foundation that has been already invented. That is what you are doing for yourself with Crowley's writings- and it what everybody should do if they are interested. It is not re-inventing the wheel.
~Rosanne
Grigori
Rosanne said:
AH OK, thanks Rosanne. I think we are having the same opinion here, though saying it differently. Actually it seems to me that Aeon and Umbrae are having the same opinion as each other also
I was having a similar discussion with some students yesterday, not about tarot, but I think the idea is the same. We spend a semester rote learning huge amounts of information and relationships, but they have permission to forget it all as soon as the exams are over
Not because its not important, but because the real idea is to learn the terminology, so that you understand how things work. The details you can look up later once you undertand where you'd find them, or you can modify/rewrite them based on your ongoing experience.Aeon418
Oh really? Then why did Crowley call his system Scientific Illuminism?Rosanne said:
We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon. Our method is science, our aim is religion
Aeon418
A entire body of work does not fall out of the sky fully formed and complete. It is a developmental process. Crowley contradicts himself you say? Well heaven forbid that someone should change their mind, develop their ideas, or allow for progression in their work.Abrac said:
Aeon418
That's not what Umbrae was saying at all. Umbrae seems to think that 777 is Crowley's qabalah, which needs to be ignored if you want to make your own qabalah. What Crowley did with 777 is systematise and condense a lot of diverse information (mainly religious symbolism) into tables. It's supposed to be an aid in the creation of your own qabalah and a convenience that saves you time scurrying around libraries looking up little bits of information. It's like having a referrence library on religious symbolism in one small book. And not only that, you can cross reference different traditions at a glance.Rosanne said:
On top of that you are supposed to use that same structure to organise your own knowledge and experience. You're supposed to add to 777. Crowley merely started the ball rolling. Another benenfit of using the system is that different people can compare results and share information using a common frame of referrence.
Dion Fortune wrote a wonderful commentary on 777 - The Mystical Qabalah. Is that worthless? Or is it an amazing source of information?
Of course if you want to throw it all out the window, be my guest. My comment about re-inventing the wheel stands.
Rosanne
I did not realise you did not know.Aeon418 said:
SCIENTIFIC
Scientific refers to bodies of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.
ILLUMINISM
The term has been used in modern times primarily with respect to and by secret societies, for the most part, orders that have modeled their practices after the mystery cults of the Hellenic world, which flourished around the Mediterranean coast and Near East at the period when the Roman Empire dominated the region and its cultures.
The word Illuminism, when used as a proper noun, refers specifically to the form of enlightenment or illumination that is a part of advancement in the ranks of various secret societies that claim a common origin with the Bavarian Illuminati. As such it is an important concept within Discordianism as well. The idea of Illumination can be usefully compared to Enlightenment, Grace, and Satori in other spiritual traditions.
Just as I said earlier- this is not re inventing the wheel- even if it is his own wheel. The same allowance you have allowed Crowley- is also extended to anyone studying him.Aeon418 said:
That is what Umbrae said.Umbrae said:
That is what Umbrae said- I quoted him.Aeon418 said:
Who spoke about throwing anything out the window?Aeon418 said:
To repeat: to expand and grow in knowledge from a foundation that someone started the ball rolling with is NOT re-inventing the wheel. If you do not expand nothing moves forward in knowledge. It stays as one person's ideology which is cant- the language of a sect- not progressive self mastery at all.
To trot out poetic sayings about Virgins and Pigeons, science and Religion does not add to knowledge- it only goes to show you know quotes from Crowley. Most who read his work know these bits and pieces- or can discover them for themselves. It would be pleasing if you could understand that many people who read Crowley or wish to understand further are capable of doing so and coming to their own conclusions- which have the same validity as yours.
~Rosanne
