Tarot of Giuseppe Ottone

le pendu

When discussing "The Spanish Tarot" in another thread ( http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=28346 ), it is noted that the Spanish Tarot is based on the Tarot Of Giuseppe Ottone.

When looking at the Spanish Tarot, it seemed to me very much based on the TdM I type decks ( http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=61489 ), so I was very excited when Kenji provided scans of 5 cards from the Giuseppe Ottone deck.

ottone1.jpg

ottone2.jpg


As I might have expected, the Tarot of Giuseppe Ottone shares a lot of iconography that would persuade me to classify it as TdM I.
 

le pendu

The King of Swords shows the tell tale TdM I sign of having "flowers" instead of "faces" on the shoulders for instance. Here are images from the Vieville (c. 1650), Noblet (c. 1650), Dodal (c. 1701).. followed by the Ottone (1736), Drago (c. 1790) and Conver (1760).

king_swords_1.jpg

king_swords_2.jpg


You'll notice the "flowers" are clear on the Vieville, Noblet and Ottone. The Dodal and the Drago have more of a web shape on one of the shoulders. The Dodal loses one of the feet of the king.

I find this very curious. The Ottone is obviously very similar to the Dodal, but it is not based on it or the foot would be missing and the second flower would look like a web. The Drago has the second foot as well, but uses the web pattern like on the Dodal.

With the Drago and the Ottone, we seem to have a surviving pattern that is based, in my opinion at the moment, on the same pattern that the TdM I is based on. It's interesting as well that both of these decks are from Italy, but retain the French titles. We see a strong similarity to the Dodal deck, yet they retain information that was lost in the Dodal, so could not have been based upon it directly.
 

le pendu

The Queen of Coins is also very similar to the Dodal. Note the staff she holds in her hand. Here, the top of her headdress is not cut off like it is in the Dodal. On the Ottone, like the Drago, her breasts are much more exposed.

below is the Conver, Dodal, Ottone, and Drago.
queen_coins.jpg
d02059dQ.jpg
 

le pendu

The Two of Coins is reversed, like the Drago.

Below is the Dodal, Conver, Ottone, and Drago

2_coins.jpg
 

euripides

These are fascinating! Thanks so much for posting this.

I noticed on the Spanish (ie the Ottone reconstructed by Fournier) the Ace of Swords is reversed, the hand coming from the left.

I'm seeing a very strong kinship between the Ottone and the Drago (the latter a deck I haven't seen at all before now)

The expression on the Ottone Queen of Coin's face - she's smiling!
 

le pendu

On the Chariot, we see the TdM I style canopy at the top with the "scallops" rather than the parted drapes in TdM II like the Conver. Also, the plate on the front of the Chariot is very similar to the Dodal.

Conver, Dodal, Ottone, Noblet
VII.jpg
07-le-chariot.jpg
 

le pendu

On the Bateleur, the Ottone seems to have lost/confused the front leg of the table with the leg of the Bateleur.

Like on the Dodal and Drago, there are buttons on his shirt (unlike the Noblet and Conver). Note also that the "purse/hat/cake/bag/thingy" on the table is very similar to the Drago.

Below are the Conver, Dodal, Ottone, and Drago.

I.jpg
 

le pendu

So all of this bring up some questions for me.

When trying to find information on the Giuseppe Ottone Tarot, we have these pieces gathered by euripides in the Spanish Tarot Thread:

euripides said:
Collecting a few references. It doesn't help that Ottone is Italian for 'brass'. I think.

Collected Fragments of Tarot History

1736 Serravalle, Italy

“By the second quarter of the century [18th] this earliest form of the Tarocco Piemontese was being made in Piedmont itself; the earliest example known to me is one by Giuseppe Ottone of Serravalle made in 1736 and now in the Museo de Naipes Fournier in Vitoria.” (GT 196.)

- no idea who/what the GT [ Game of Tarot: Michael Dummett] reference is. Serravalle seems to be the maker of the Ancient Italian Tarots.

According to this page at 'tarot university', the Spanish Marseilles

" was published in 1975, but was based on the classical Italian-Piedmontese tarot of Giusep Ottone of 1736, (says the entry in the Fournier Playing Cards encyclopedia.)"

and this Hermetics.org - pdf

' The deck we are featuring from this family is based
on the classical Italian-Piedmontese tarot of
Giusep Ottone, first published in1736. Dr.
Lewis Keizer considers this family of decks to
be the best reproduction of the earliest Arcana
to have survived the Inquisition (see "The
Esoteric Origins of Tarot: More than a Wicked
Pack of Cards"). '

Then there's the Tarot.com article quoted by Laura_borealis at the beginning of this thread. [ http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/essays/spanish ]
Click to expand...

So WHAT is a "Tarocco Piemontese"???
I can find the "two-headed" decks.... as seen on these pages:
http://www.pagat.com/class/itarot.html
http://themysticeye.com/pics/piemontese.htm
and discussed here on Andy's Playing cards:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards65.htm

And I know of the Liguria Piedmont, here I've scanned the same images as the Ottone:

liguria_piedmont_1.jpg

liguria_piedmont_2.jpg


The images from the Liguria Piedmont have some similarities to the TdM I, but some to the TdM II as well, but in many cases the iconography is very differnt. In most cases, the Ottone is MUCH more similar to the TdM I decks than to the images in the Liguria Piedmont. Is the Liguria Piedmont an "Italian-Piedmontese" deck? Or something else?

Why is the Ottone considered "Piedmontese"? Is the Ottone really just a TdM I, misassigned as a "Piemontese"? Is "Piemontese" really just another name for TdM I?

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated!

best,
robert
 

kenji

Ottone is indeed "TdM I"

Hi le pendu,

Remember Jean Dodal deck has the inscription "F.P.LE.TRANGE":)

*******************************************
The earliest Tarot packs made in Piedmont that have survived date from about 1735; their pattern is copied from the Tarot de Marseille. We have an example by Jean Dodal, active in Lyons from 1701 to 1715, of a prototype of these Piedmontese packs, marked as made for export, presumably to Piedmont. The pattern underwent a considerable evolution in Piedmont, ultimately into the modern double-headed Tarocco piemontese, the only form of 78-card pack now manufactured in Italy.

(quoted from "A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack" by Michael Dummett & John McLeod, p151)

********************************************

And Mr Thierry Depaulis's comment is here (from "Tarot, jeu et magie").
http://www.letarot.com/jean-dodal/pages/jean-dodal-3.html

Later Piemontese tarots were also affected by TdM II designs, as you guessed.
 

euripides

le pendu said:
On the Bateleur, the Ottone seems to have lost/confused the front leg of the table with the leg of the Bateleur.
Click to expand...

If you look closely, you can see that the drawing itself shows the Magician's leg behind the leg of the table. Its the colouring that goes over both, making it hard to distinguish.
 
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