Somewhere between the RWS and Thoth...

Hi guys,

a friend of mine (whom I've lead successfully into the tarot world asked me this question: "Why are the minors in the RWS and Thoth decks so different?"

So I said something like: "Well, you know, Waite was more towards the mystical; hermetism, rosicrusianism, freemasonry..and Crowley, well, he had his Thelema. Crowley follows the tradional Golden Dawn titles, whereas Waite used ideas from the Grail myths and freemasonry (thank you Mary for giving us this information!) which Pixie then transferred into images...and the Thoth minors are bound to the Tree of Life/Cabbala, so that the numbers correspond to the sephiras and colours as well, and even the astrological attributes are a significant factor, which is not at least so obvious in the RWS.."

Later I began to think about this - was I even close to the point?? I had actually never before thought about it - to me it was just like, "Well, there's the RWS and then there's the Thoth and you don't mix those two.."

So, please, comments would be much appreciated - Jmd, Fulgour, Tehuti, anyone!

-tero (my eye is beginning seriously to twitch..)

Credit the Artists

Pamela Colman Smith (1878-1951) created her Tarot independently
of Arthur Waite, but he pretended to have suggested a few cards.

There is no evidence he was involved other than the book he wrote,
which contains repeated evidence it was her deck and not his at all.

Marguerit Frieda Bloxam (1877-1961) posing as Lady Frieda Harris,
created her deck under the title "The Tarot of the Egyptians" and
Aleister Crowley was prevented from taking possession of it when
she got a court order. He claimed intellectual property because he
wrote a book. And to keep it from him... she gave it to a museum.

Crowley had a lifelong loathing of Christianity and Waite became less of Magician and more Christian in outlook- if they influenced the decks as is supposed- one would expect the Thoth to be awash with sexual majical symbolism and a leaning toward Satanism, and RWS to be 'pitifully grotesque' as said by Crowley. Neither is true so....
As the differences between Waite and Crowley are infamous, I will speak of the differences between the decks of the painters Colman Smith and Freida Harris.
There is 60 years between the publishing of RWS by lithography and the photographical reproduction of oil paintings, of the Thoth.
RWS 56 pictorial illustrations of the Minors
Thoth has 56 illustrated minors
Both have 78 Cards, although Thoth has an added two- the magical seal of the Beast on one and a statement on the other.
Thoth has keywords- RWS does not
Justice /Adjustment is Card 8, Card 11 is Lust in the Thoth
The reverse occurs in RWS, with Lust called Strength.
Card 20 in RWS is Judgement- it is the Aeon in Thoth
Temperance is renamed Art in Thoth.
As I do not believe Crowley and Waite had as much influence on the painters as is supposed; I am therefore biased to explain the philosophical differences, between the two decks. Crowley believed he was a reincarnation of Levi and also that he was a Vampire, and he was expelled from the Golden Dawn. Waite was a ponderous, pendantic wannabe, but he had a greater sense of reality than Crowley ever did....... and also I am one of 'anyones' you spoke of Ukkonen and probably not to be relied on. ~Rosanne

Hello Fulgour and Rosanne,

Thank you both, equally, for your comments

Fulgour, I must admit that I might be too 'old school' to accept what you wrote concerning the autonomy of PCS. But I get your point, and therefore I'm not going to argue that there would be some document which would prove that Waite actually _did_ advise Smith (since there are none). I'm happy with all our different speculations

As for Crowley and Harris, I didn't quite get that 'posing'. Maybe it's just me and my not-that-good english. Surely the marriage between Frieda and Sir Percy was a valid one? At least Crowley got his share (66,6% , and I find it quite amusing that even though the Warburg Institute owns the paintings, O.T.O. nevertheless has the copyrights.

-tero

Name Games

Ukkonen said:

As for...Harris, I didn't quite get that 'posing'. Maybe it's just me and my not-that-good english. Surely the marriage between Frieda and Sir Percy was a valid one?

Click to expand...

Whilst it may be proven that "Sir Percy" was a real person,
there is no record of him ever having married. Very strange
when one considers that all such matters are recorded...

Anyone who may wish to can consult St Catherine's House,
London, registery of births, deaths, and marriages for proof,
or in this case, the glaring absence of any reference to this
supposed marriage. Further, Marguerit Frieda Bloxam hasn't
an actual record of ever having existed "officially" either...

The Pamela Colman Smith Tarot of 1909
was not a work for hire, as is insited on.

In this letter, she clearly offers, for sale,
the originals of her work ~ her property!

Thanks for posting the link to the letter Fulgour - I've read a copy of it before but not in her original handwriting. I think she would have been an amazing woman to meet.

Ukkonen said:

... O.T.O. nevertheless has the copyrights.

Click to expand...

The involvement of the O.T.O. in documenting background
information is more a case of typical Crowlean misdirection.

It is said that "Lady Frieda" saved all of Crowley's letters,
but busy boy AC did not bother to keep her's ~ oh yeah?

How convenient, if one wishes to create the myth that he
was the master-mind behind her deck. I believe otherwise.

Crowley probably forged the letters himself~ after the fact,
as a way of furthering his ambitions as an actual somebody.

People say you must read "all" of Crowley's books in order to
understand them...spare me that! First to last, he is a fraud.

Emily said:

I think she would have been an amazing woman to meet.

Click to expand...

I can picture Pam driving around Cornwall in her 1929
Bentley Speed Six Cadogan...or maybe a 1919 model?

After all, she did inherit money: that's a provable fact!

Fulgour said:

Marguerit Frieda Bloxam (1877-1961) posing as Lady Frieda Harris,
created her deck under the title "The Tarot of the Egyptians" and
Aleister Crowley was prevented from taking possession of it when
she got a court order. He claimed intellectual property because he
wrote a book. And to keep it from him... she gave it to a museum.

Click to expand...

Bloxam was her maiden name. I've never heard her marriage questioned before.
Here's from Crowley's will: http://mill-valley.freemasonry.biz/lady-freida-harris.htm
Here's some of their correspondence:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/crowley-harris.html
I've seen photocopies of the original letters.
I've also seen her papers and some drawings at the Warburg Museum in London.
Here's some of the images that didn't make it into the deck as well as some of her Masonic paintings.
http://www.caduceusbooks.com/occultartgallery/harris/harris.html
Here's a wonderful article on her use of the Steinerian "Synthetic Projective Geometry":
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/dplanet/stephen/claas/olive_e.html
See also:
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/index.php/Frieda_Harris

Mary