Somewhere between the RWS and Thoth...

[Teheuti]

The Pamela Colman Smith Tarot of 1909
was not a work for hire, as is insited on.

Let's see: she just finished "a big job for very little cash."

She was paid for a job.

JOB: "A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession. . . . A specific piece of work to be done for a set fee."

A work-for-hire does not mean that she did get to keep the original drawings. What it usually means is that the person does not own the copyright or the rights to publication. If she was paid very little then it may have been considered that selling the original artwork would be part of her recompense.

There doesn't seem to be any indication in any of the copyright issues surrounding the RWS deck that the copyright was owned by PCS.

Pixie trained in commercial art under Arthur Wesley Dow at the Pratt Institute. See Holly Voley's website at:
http://home.comcast.net/~pamela-c-smith/artworks.html

Since she only went through the first two initiations in the Outer Order of the GD, she would not yet have access to the GD teachings on the Tarot - which was only for those initiated into the Inner Order. There's no indication that she translated tarot works from the French and so her source of Tarot meanings would have been Mathers' 1888 booklet on the Tarot and the work of Waite as 'Grand Orient,' which would not seem especially conducive, by themselves, to the imagery found in this deck. Nor, does she appear to have been involved with the Masons (especially not as a Catholic who was not allowed to belong), and so where did all the Masonic imagery come from? Her biographer, Melinda Boyd Parsons, who curated a show of her art, found in her other works few, if any, instances of her adoption of "Rosicrucian religious symbols or colors" the way they can be found among other GD artists.

This is not to say that Pixie was not the artist of the deck - she clearly was, nor that she didn't add things above and beyond the materials and suggestions that Waite gave her - many of the Minors use motifs that are found in her other works.

As Yeats & Debussy both noted, she had an uncanny ability to know exactly what was in their minds when creating art illustrating their works. She used her highly evolved intuitive gift to collaborate in extraordinary ways with quite a few people. This, in itself, was an amazing ability.

Mary

 

[Aeon418]

if they influenced the decks as is supposed- one would expect the Thoth to be awash with sexual majical symbolism and a leaning toward Satanism,

The Thoth Tarot is awash with sexual magical symbolism, if you know what to look for. As for Satanism. Why would there be any satanic symbolism in the Thoth deck? Crowley was not a satanist, hence the complete lack of satanic symbolism.

As I do not believe Crowley and Waite had as much influence on the painters as is supposed

Crowley was intimately involved with the entire process.

Crowley believed he was a reincarnation of Levi and also that he was a Vampire, and he was expelled from the Golden Dawn.

A vampire!!! Where did you read that? A tabloid newspaper?

 

[Fulgour]

Waite isn't even mentioned!

Let's see: she just finished "a big job for very little cash."
She was paid for a job.

She's talking shop with a friend... a friend...
the rest of the letter is VERY clear about it.

 

[Rosanne]

) As for Satanism. Why would there be any satanic symbolism in the Thoth deck? Crowley was not a satanist, hence the complete lack of satanic symbolism.

Crowley was intimately involved with the entire process.

A vampire!!! Where did you read that? A tabloid newspaper?

Perhaps you should read more widely yourself. Crowley was a satantist- he also said he was a Vampire (whether he believed it himself cannot be decided)
He also did things like perform gnostic mass- get kicked out of Italy- offer Churchill magic to end the War. Read some reputable biographies- before you go off half cocked at me.~Rosanne

 

[thinbuddha]

Back to the original question: I think that the pips in these two decks are more similar than people think. Obviously the Thoth is more abstract, but I thik that the intended interpretations are often close to one another.

Mind you- it has been a long time since I've looked that closely at the RWS, so I could be forgetting big differences.

-tb

 

[Aeon418]

Perhaps you should read more widely yourself.

I've read pretty widely in the last 20 years or so since I first encountered Crowley's writings.

Crowley was a satantist

Incorrect. Crowley rejected the Judeo-Christian world view and thus their concept of the devil. So how can he be classed as a Satanist?
The modern day form of Satanism did not even exist during his life time either.

he also said he was a Vampire (whether he believed it himself cannot be decided)

Got a source for that with some context? People often take Crowley out of context to score cheap points.

He also did things like perform gnostic mass-

So do thousands of OTO members to this present day. Your point is?

get kicked out of Italy

He's not the first person that ever happened to, and probably won't be the last.
You are aware that he was kicked out of Italy by a "real" evil man, the Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini.

offer Churchill magic to end the War.

That's an assumption made by some people. Although Crowley suggested the use of the V sign to counter the Swastika, there is no evidence that this is the reason why Churchill used it.

Read some reputable biographies- before you go off half cocked at me

Actually I've read nine Crowley biographies and his autobiography. I've also read, and own, nearly every single book the man ever wrote. Over the past twenty years I've studied and researched his life and works from many different angles and read the opinions of his admirers and enemies alike in an attempt to gain a balanced and complete picture of the man and his ideas. How about you?

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

I've read at least as much as Aeon418, I suspect, and invested a good part of my life's energy in Crowley and Thelema.

Still, I couldn't refute Roseanne's assertion that Crowley "said he was a Vampire" outright... he might have said in some poem or another "I'm a vampire", since he wrote a lot of poetry influenced by people like Swinburne and Baudelaire in his early days.

So, here's an excellent article on that very question -
"Aleister Crowley and the Legend of the Serpent's Kiss" -
http://www.solarphallic-cult.org/serpentskiss.htm

No vampire.

No Satanist either, if you mean Anton LaVey type or "Death Metal" (etc.) type.

Then again, there are similarities with these latter types and Crowley - a lot of them do and say outrageous things for effect.

Sorry for being off-topic.

 

[Rosanne]

Actually I've read nine Crowley biographies and his autobiography. I've also read, and own, nearly every single book the man ever wrote. Over the past twenty years I've studied and researched his life and works from many different angles and read the opinions of his admirers and enemies alike in an attempt to gain a balanced and complete picture of the man and his ideas. How about you?

Well we are about equal in that- though I probably just skimmed the Autobiography seeing as I see him very differently to you. I do not admire him- but I feel sorry that his mental health was not dealt with, and I do smile at his need for recognition- which he would doubtlessly be pleased with, seen he has such ardent fans. What I never found out was, what exactly were the extreme practices that got him expelled from the Golden Dawn? besides hearsay? Any balanced explanations? Even though curiousity drove me to read about him I don't think I would ever be so arrogant as to think I could have a complete picture of the man and his ideas, but then maybe if there was an a biography about Iohi Aour( Allan Bennet G.D.) some further insight might be gained.~Rosanne

 

[Aeon418]

Besides the fact that your question about Crowley and the Golden Dawn is puzzling, (Because you've read a few Crowley bio's, right? So you should know the events of that time.) don't you think it would be better to continue this discussion in a more appropriate thread?

 

[Ukkonen]

Back to the original question: I think that the pips in these two decks are more similar than people think. Obviously the Thoth is more abstract, but I thik that the intended interpretations are often close to one another.

Mind you- it has been a long time since I've looked that closely at the RWS, so I could be forgetting big differences.

-tb

Hi Thinbuddha, I agree with you. By a quick count I got easily over half of the minors having quite strong similarities in both decks. What to me had the strongest differences were: Wands 3; Cups 4 & 7; Swords 6 & 7; Pentacles 6 & 7. And these based just on the images themselves; if you read the Book of Thoth the number comes down even more (e.g. 4 of Cups in Thoth: "Luxury" - in the RWS: not that luxurious to me. But Crowley writes: "...implies a certain weakness, an abandonment to desire." Which IMO brings it very close to the RWS-image)

-tero