Pictures of my Etteilla 1890 Z. Lismon, Paris

just uploaded 4 different examples of card #7 from 5 different decks.

I say 4 examples because the Dusserre and Lo Scarabeo Delarue mirror each other

http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb218/Papageno357/

edited:

to answer OnePotato's earlier question regarding the spelling on card #1......on mine it's spelled with 2 "T"'s

My Lismon # 7 is very close to the Dusserre Grand #7 but there are important variations in the depiction of the sea creatures and even the rock formations in the foreground. the flight pattern of the birds is slightly different and there are fewer birds in the Lismon deck.

Also note the symbol of Libra in the Dusserre deck which is missing from the Lismon

I do see that Kenji's #7 and mine are identical for the most part except for the tinting

Papageno said:

...My Lismon # 7 is very close to the Dusserre Grand #7 but there are important variations in the depiction of the sea creatures and even the rock formations in the foreground. the flight pattern of the birds is slightly different and there are fewer birds in the Lismon deck.

Click to expand...

Yes.
And I'm guessing that the 10, 12, 15 and 21 won't be similar. They will be entirely different images?

Does the Dusserre say what deck it is reproduced from? Is it 1890 Grimaud?

OnePotato said:

Yes.
And I'm guessing that the 10, 12, 15 and 21 won't be similar. They will be entirely different images?

Does the Dusserre say what deck it is reproduced from? Is it 1890 Grimaud?

Click to expand...

The Dusserre booklet only states that the Grand Etteilla is a reproduction of a 19th century original in the collection of the Bibliotheque Nationale, a precise date of publication is not provided.

The booklet offers excerpts from various original texts published between 1783 1804 and briefly outlines the differences between the more traditional Marseille and this new Tarot (roughly translated) > resulting from a preoccupation at the end of the 18th century with esoteric Egyptian philosophies.
a small table is provided in the back of the book with correspondences.

the rest of the booklet contains a series of original lessons on how to use the deck and the cards meanings.

cards 1 - 10 - 12 - 15 - 21 and others are very different.

I'll scan the corresponding cards side-by-side (later tonight) so you can see the differences.

OnePotato said:

Yes.
And I'm guessing that the 10, 12, 15 and 21 won't be similar. They will be entirely different images?

Click to expand...

as requested the images have been uploaded.

http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb218/Papageno357/

Lismon/left .....Dusserre Grand/right

if you'd like to see images or comparisons of other cards and decks, just ask

OnePotato said:

Paper measures 128mm x 80.5mm
Outermost border measures 116.5mm x 67.5mm
Inner border measures 109mm x 60mm

Click to expand...

Thanks. Hmm... the outer frame of mine is 107 X 59 mm.
Slightly different.

Well, I have uploaded additional images -- No.10, 12, 15 & 21.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/valet_de_coupe/e/1ce2071ced2eba0d23f00294e73fcfb6

Kenji

kenji said:

Well, I have uploaded additional images -- No.10, 12, 15 & 21.


Kenji

Click to expand...

really fascinating comparing the differences in coloring between yours and mine..... especially the variations in the way the drape of the cloth on the female figures are tinted to create a unique effect.

I notice your deck was colored with a more diverse palette.
I especially like the green cloth on the Magician's table.

Some images of another type of ETTEILLA II are shown at the following site:
http://www.rusjoker.com/WWPCM/decks07/d05365/d05365.htm

I doubt it is an 18th-century copy, but I think it is a rather early specimen.
(These are from the catalogue of Fournier Museum.)

Just have a look at the cards No.2,3 & 4.
"1.er" "2.r" 3.e" ... All the numbers in subtitles are dotted.
The same dots can be seen in my deck, the specimen in Kaplan II (p406),
and the one in Deutsches Spielkarten-Museum Leinfelden-Echterdingen
(see the catalogue "Tarot-Tarock-Tarocchi" p136), etc.

OK.

In kenji's deck:
For 10, 12, 15...
The bounding lines of the engraving are typeset strips of metal. You can see most of the corners have little white gaps, where the strips meet as mitered corners.
The same is true for 21, but the strips are thinner than the others, so there is no "miter," just small gaps where they don't join perfectly.

All of the other "trump" cards have the bounding lines of the "image block" integrated into the actual engraving block. They are carved, rather than typeset with metal strips. You can see that they are generally rougher edged, and have no little miter gaps at the corners.

In my deck, the metal rules stand out more clearly, because these four cards have the thin bounding lines, just like kenji's #21. And all of my other "trump" cards have the heavier weight bounding lines integrated into the actual engraving block. The same is true for my pips 3-10 in all four suits. The lines on these are thin metal.

Now, my point is...
The woodblock portions of these four trumps have images that are carved without integrated borders. (The typesetter had to add metal rules when he put together the pieces for printing, so that they would follow the form of the other cards in the deck. [He used thin rules on mine, and heavier on your 10 12 15.]) So, technically speaking, these four engraved woodblocks stand apart from the others in the deck. Maybe they were made by a different engraver? Maybe they were made at a different time? Whatever the reason, they are different.

"Coincidently..."
These SAME four cards have entirely different illustrations/subject matter from the "Dusserre Grand Etteilla" (probably 1890 Grimaud) that Papageno posted. With the exception of #1, where they have added a sun, the other trump cards carry very similar images between decks.

The same comparison holds true for pips 3-10.
Courts, aces and two's are similar designs.
3-10 (Which also have metal lines in the Lismon) are totally different

I believe this is somehow directly connected to the changes in imagery between Etteilla type-I and Etteilla type-II. If a typesetter were to take away all of the pieces that need to use metal rules from the Lismon, you're left with pieces that make up an Etteilla type-I deck. (So, ultimately, I'm wondering if the engraved blocks of the Lismon began as a type-I deck, and then had 10, 12, 15, 21 either changed or replaced, and resulted in the creation of type-II...)

This has got to be one of my favorite threads ever on AT. It's an absolute joy to witness the enthusiasm, co-operation, and delight as these posts develop.

Fascinating! I'm loving it!

It's way too dark and blurry in my phone pix, but Kenji's posted picture of the Two of Swords with the bearded man is the same in mine--although my backs are a checkerboard red pattern and the maker is known to be Lismon. The tax stamp reads Averil (April) and I believe this version is stamped 1880 or 1890--I seem to recall this version as 1880. I need to look in bright daylight. This was a purchase from Intercol London without book--the box with label was in shreds (I just put it in a plastic, sealed baggie for reference).

(1) and (2) are from the April 1880 tax stamp decks

The tax stamp, according to Wolfgang Kunst/Kunze, might have been applied to merchandise printed and stored by Lismon until or before the purchase of Lismon merchandise from Grimaud. The German seller had an 1890 Lismon with box and book and I believe the second soldier without beard is 1890. The back has a kind of wavy or squiggly lines...I think even the blurry photos might show the difference.

(3) and (4) and (5) are from the believed to be 1890 tax stamped deck.

I'll try to post more exact or refer to one of the excellent previous scans to find matching elements...Kenji's deck seems to be 1880 as I try to match his cards with my believed to be 1880 images...

In both Lismon 1880 and 1890--there is an absolute absence of green.*(Exception in the Two of Cups, but I believe fading in my decks might also contribute to seeing only yellow, blue and pink, which could be a faded red). While my Lismon 1880 line engravings seem very similar to Kenji's the coloring is all different--in mine, red checkered backs to the card; no green on the uncolored cloth on the Magicians table; lack of coloring in the cards that I have where Kenji's shows a wash of color, like a sky.

Pink, blue, yellow--no blends or transfer. The delicacy of the line etching and the tiny, tiny small pictorial inserts of say, the delicate lady in pinky-rose as she goes about her genteel day in deniers is quite pretty. One can almost 'see' a meaning and associate it with the number of coins (denier) pictured above her small inset pictures. (Later I saw the 'meaning' you might get from her picture isn't really a Rider_Waite meaning--but I find her actions almost a suggestion or alternative to the mood and meaning noted on the card.)

68 (La Maison - 10 Denier) She plays a lute
69 (Effet -9 Denier) She looks keenly at a flower
70 (Fille Brune - 8 Denier) She writes at her desk
71 (Argent - 7 Denier) she plays a keyboard;
72 (Le Present - 6 Denier) - She looks in the mirror, one arm upraised, one arm relaxed and draped back over the lounge arm
73 (Amante ou amante - 5 Denier - she is harvesting with a basket on her lap
74 (Un Present - 4 Denier) -she kneels by a rooster near a farmhouse;
75 (Noble -3 Denier)she waits in repose and thinks;
76 -(Embarras-Two Denier) - she seems to react with surprise while a sun peeps over her shoulder
77 (Perfect Contentment- Ace Denier) she plays with a small dog who is jumping up to her knee.

Best regards,

Cerulean