2 of Cups - Where are they standing?

[ravenest]

'In' the 2 of cups energy.

H Ravenest! And, thank you. This I can understand better. I can relate to these examples completely. I'd like to try the above exercise above. How do you know if your left with anything or not after removing all the +'s?

Good question ... internal honesty ? deep examination ... one thing I noticed was - The more pluses you start with the less love you are left with ... sometimes it seems the LESS one can define love the purer the form of love it is.

Also, if a person(s) experience the 2 of Cups butttt...... then are separated for some odd reason beyond control against their wills - then what is it???? ---Is it pure love experienced before polluted?????
: )

Perhaps ... again the troubadours write (and sing) about that 'agony'

But I will let you in on a little secret ... it is better that way ! ... with humans ... not with the gods though.

I mean we make the human the god and of course they aren't going to live up to that ... when the chemicals wear off we will see all the little things that ARE human (and if unevolved start blaming the other person for being human in the first place ).

Liz Greene (the astro psychologist ) writes a GREAT piece on it ... how being in absolute adoring love with someone is healthy and good (releases great chemicals in us and puts us in an interesting state of consciousness and 'spirituality' - read some Sufism .,.. they specialise in it) Liz says its best to do it from afar ... (I say be in love WITH love ... often I am dancing on the air and glowing and people say " Ooooh ... your IN LOVE! ... Who are YOU in love with? " I say; "Myself ... the air .. the blue sky .. LIFE!" and waltz off ... I think they think I am on drugs ( I am! But I didn't have to buy and take them ... I made em inside me ) Liz sats if you encounter your God / Goddess, it will be great for a while ... but you will crash and go into a depression (she goes on here to write some REALLY good stuff about how this process is repeated in lots of modern therapies ... they supply the buzz but cant deal with the crash later ... worth a read.)

Ummm ... if you DO do this its best not to stalk them

If people are mature they can get great enjoyment out of this (being in the 2 of cups energy) ... just remember there is a 5 of cups coming eventually ... if one can juggle the active and passive parts of worshipping a Goddess in human form and being absolutely ga ga and ... (well, I will leave out the physical techniques , just need to remember that when one (or two) 'leave the sanctuary' expect them to occasionally fart, be in a bad mood, or get back to the realistic mundane world.

On the level of working this with a God or Goddess, I cant quote better than this from NUIT in the Book of the Law. (in answer to your question) ;
“29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union. “

Further references, go to http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-of-wisdom-or-folly/ and look up the chapters with ‘Amore’ in the titles.

ESPECIALLY ; 'De Ludo Amoris'. (http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-of-wisdom-or-folly/tbwf4.html 198 Zo )

Both sides have difficulties … half way ‘angel sex’ is great 

 

[Margo9023]

Ravenest

Margo9023 ; By the way I don't find that you lack words or there is any stupidity present ... far from it. Its just that the 'ravenest one of all the ravens' ( a joke with myself about my ego) slips into his rave nest when a gale has started blowing outside and gardening has been disrupted for the day.

I better watch out; Raven spun such a long, complex, self-witty, yarn to Zeus that he ended up losing his ability to si aaark arrk caw ?? Caaaw ...

Hi Ravenest! LOL! You are really making this thread interesting, fun, and a real teaching for me. Thank you. I do have a hard time relaying what I'm thinking. I'll think very deeply, but then can't translate the thoughts into words. I've always been this way. : )

 

[Margo9023]

Ravenest

Good question ... internal honesty ? deep examination ... one thing I noticed was - The more pluses you start with the less love you are left with ... sometimes it seems the LESS one can define love the purer the form of love it is.


Perhaps ... again the troubadours write (and sing) about that 'agony'

But I will let you in on a little secret ... it is better that way ! ... with humans ... not with the gods though.

I mean we make the human the god and of course they aren't going to live up to that ... when the chemicals wear off we will see all the little things that ARE human (and if unevolved start blaming the other person for being human in the first place ).

Liz Greene (the astro psychologist ) writes a GREAT piece on it ... how being in absolute adoring love with someone is healthy and good (releases great chemicals in us and puts us in an interesting state of consciousness and 'spirituality' - read some Sufism .,.. they specialise in it) Liz says its best to do it from afar ... (I say be in love WITH love ... often I am dancing on the air and glowing and people say " Ooooh ... your IN LOVE! ... Who are YOU in love with? " I say; "Myself ... the air .. the blue sky .. LIFE!" and waltz off ... I think they think I am on drugs ( I am! But I didn't have to buy and take them ... I made em inside me ) Liz sats if you encounter your God / Goddess, it will be great for a while ... but you will crash and go into a depression (she goes on here to write some REALLY good stuff about how this process is repeated in lots of modern therapies ... they supply the buzz but cant deal with the crash later ... worth a read.)

Ummm ... if you DO do this its best not to stalk them

If people are mature they can get great enjoyment out of this (being in the 2 of cups energy) ... just remember there is a 5 of cups coming eventually ... if one can juggle the active and passive parts of worshipping a Goddess in human form and being absolutely ga ga and ... (well, I will leave out the physical techniques , just need to remember that when one (or two) 'leave the sanctuary' expect them to occasionally fart, be in a bad mood, or get back to the realistic mundane world.

On the level of working this with a God or Goddess, I cant quote better than this from NUIT in the Book of the Law. (in answer to your question) ;
“29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union. “

Further references, go to http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-of-wisdom-or-folly/ and look up the chapters with ‘Amore’ in the titles.

ESPECIALLY ; 'De Ludo Amoris'. (http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-of-wisdom-or-folly/tbwf4.html 198 Zo )

Both sides have difficulties … half way ‘angel sex’ is great 

Thank you. I just looked at some of the information -
Ok, this is deep.....

On the level of working this with a God or Goddess, I cant quote better than this from NUIT in the Book of the Law. (in answer to your question) ;
“29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union. “

I don't get it yet???.............: (
Hummmmm......

So, is it actually better to have experienced or feel that "agony" - and leave it there - because it keeps it "Pure love"?

OR

Is it "UN-pure love" - because it is "disrupted" or "ended" ( by outside influences before it can be polluted) with the agony left to feel?.......................

 

[ravenest]

Thank you. I just looked at some of the information -
Ok, this is deep.....

Yep ... so don't try to get it at first read ... its quiet cryptic and is written in an unusual style.

On the level of working this with a God or Goddess, I cant quote better than this from NUIT in the Book of the Law. (in answer to your question) ;
“29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union. “

I don't get it yet???.............: (
Hummmmm......

Perhaps the context is within that of De Ludo Amore - contrast; good / bad, heaven / earth, union / division ... the world of duality? The things separated into duality still have attraction to each other ... the Gods call to us as we call to them. in The Book of the Law (Ch. 1) Nuit calls out "To me, to me." That book is even more 'cryptic' and it isn't really for me to say what it might mean for you .

So, is it actually better to have experienced or feel that "agony" - and leave it there - because it keeps it "Pure love"?

The 'agony' is a term I used to describe what some of the Troubadours seemed to be experiencing; the 'strain' of the magnet just as it is about to jump and connect to the other magnet, but something is holding it back. For them that was pure love, burning passion without the actual' committed sin' of sexual expression of that passion. It, I think, was due to the morals of the time.

If one has those morals or remnants of those morals or has sex associated with unresolved complexes the fulfilment of the passion does seem to cancel the 'magnetic field' and move into a different area ( working through the problem and potentially increasing and refining the 'field' or having complexes that arise but don't get resolved, in that case the 'field' can be reversed and repulsion seems to result).

OR

Is it "UN-pure love" - because it is "disrupted" or "ended" ( by outside influences before it can be polluted) with the agony left to feel?.......................

You might have to re-word that one for me

Also if we want to get deeper into this we should split to a new thread ... this one is spiralling off to outer space in relation to the OP.

My God! Now I am doing it .... the moderator leaves you alone long enough and eventually one starts moderating oneself

 

[ravenest]

So ... back to your first post;

http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups02.jpg (The colour tones in this pic seem to highlight the effect the best)

It does look like the edge of a stage... looking from the back of a stage, past the 'performers' and out into the world of 'non stage'. For me, this can indicate a lot of what was talked about in the thread re keeping the energy secluded or 'pure', sanctified. The actual physical people are apart, coming together with their cups ... note how his hand is just coming out to touch hers.

But the energy field IS connected, see how it is represented by the caduceus; the intertwined energy, the energy is held in a type of 'stasis field', a sanctuary, a temple, it will evolve and turn into something else but that depends on how the 'alchemists' develop or corrupt the energy.

Look at LRichard's example in post #24; the stasis field, sanctuary, temple is depicted with an alchemical alembic (that which contains the operation, a similar concept to the letter Cheth which is associated with this card). The 'line' is higher up on the card, the whole card below this line seems immersed in or under water ... or in 'this world' ... the resultant energy (fire or lion) is in the 'higher' world.

In a way this card shows the division in a flat two dimensional way and the Waite version seems to show it in a 3-D depth perspective

Your original observation is interesting;

...The house in the background looks secluded - kind of buried beneath the trees and grassy hills.

Perhaps this is demonstrating how the sanctuary is removed from the every day world (and everyday consciousness) ... Crowley indicates (in De Ludo Amore) that it is hard to comprehend and experience unless one is wholly initiate (which could mean - not with your everyday consciousness).

 

[Zephyros]

Coming off the Hanged Man's wagon here (having studied it for several months, though ultimately being somewhat unsuccessful) maybe I can chime in. Strap yourselves in, this might get long.

The Bible codified the term "t`shuka" תשוקה meaning "desire." A desire is considered more powerful than a simple need or want, since it denotes not actually needing anything, but wanting it all the same. There are four types of desires:

1. The desire of Eve toward Adam: In Biblical tradition, Eve was born as a result of a rib taken from Adam. When a man "takes" a wife, he needs her, as he is in essence taking back the rib he lost. Eve, on the other hand, was born a perfect being, and so does not need Adam at all, yet desires for him anyway.

2. The desire of Cain's "evil inclination" towards him: I wrote about this at length on a thread about the Lovers http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=192337&highlight=cain but in short, Cain's urge to kill Abel "desires" him, yet for slightly more sophisticated reasons we won't get into, it does not need him.

3. God's desire for humanity: According to the Bible, God is perfection, the perfect unity, the All. He does not need, obviously, mere mortals like us, but He desires our existence, if only to brag about how nice a creation was created (this last, of course, is the base for Kabbalah, quite simplified).

4. The desire of rain for earth: The rain can exist quite well without earth, yet it desires it, as without earth to enjoy the rain and bring forth life, rain would have no meaning, and would be pointless.

The last is particularly important for us, as it, in a way, explains the idea of sacrifice mentioned earlier. Let's say I am a lowly sperm cell, the seed of all human existence. witin me I hold great potential, yet that is all I hold. Without the egg to swim to, I am worthless, since I have no real purpose. However, once I enter the egg, all that I have known and have been in my short life are gone, for all intents and purposes, I am dead. However, I am not dead, I have merely transformed and lost myself in the loving embrace of my destiny. According to #3, unity has no choice but to become duality (it isn't for me, of course, to say God has no meaning in unity, but again, there it is) while #4 shows us that duality has no choice but to fulfill its desire and become unity. It is this constant interplay between opposites that perpetuates the universe.

This also, incidentally, gives us clues as to the Lovers. After all, what is the difference between the Two of Cups and the Lovers? I don't know! But I can make a guess, and probably won't be rated PG. Well, the Lovers can be thought of as the abstract energy of the marriage of dualities, omnipresent everywhere. On the other hand, the Two of Cups is the recognition of the fact that a marriage has taken place. The suit of Wands is the first phallus, the straight line creating the space around it in order to create the suit of cups. Now, the Ace of Cups is the vessel into which the Wand has been thrust (sorry!) yet the vessel is in a state of unity, it is a cup that holds the fire. The Two of Cups is where the female says "Oh! How did that get there! It's not bad!" This is where the love story really begins, and from here out, nothing will be the same again.

Even in dualistic Christianity, there is unity. The thought that the Devil could actually and really rebel against God is patently absurd, and Milton expressed this idea quite well in Paradise Lost, between the lines (in his portrayal of Satan as a tragic, "human" figure). Even in the Silmarillion, Eru Iluvatar said that although Morgoth imagined himself in rebellion against him, his actions were still a reflection of all that was planned in the first and original Song of the Ainur.

 

[ravenest]

... the Lovers can be thought of as the abstract energy of the marriage of dualities, omnipresent everywhere. On the other hand, the Two of Cups is the recognition of the fact that a marriage has taken place. .

Gosh! I would have said the exact opposite!

But there I go again getting all Thothy in the RW forum (The reason I say the opposite is because of what Crowley stated about the 2 of cups).

What you say may be valid in the strange world of the Waite sanctuary, as you say,(in this strange world) I also; " ... don't know! But I can make a guess."

 

[Margo9023]

Ravenest

Yep ... so don't try to get it at first read ... its quiet cryptic and is written in an unusual style.


Perhaps the context is within that of De Ludo Amore - contrast; good / bad, heaven / earth, union / division ... the world of duality? The things separated into duality still have attraction to each other ... the Gods call to us as we call to them. in The Book of the Law (Ch. 1) Nuit calls out "To me, to me." That book is even more 'cryptic' and it isn't really for me to say what it might mean for you .


The 'agony' is a term I used to describe what some of the Troubadours seemed to be experiencing; the 'strain' of the magnet just as it is about to jump and connect to the other magnet, but something is holding it back. For them that was pure love, burning passion without the actual' committed sin' of sexual expression of that passion. It, I think, was due to the morals of the time.

If one has those morals or remnants of those morals or has sex associated with unresolved complexes the fulfilment of the passion does seem to cancel the 'magnetic field' and move into a different area ( working through the problem and potentially increasing and refining the 'field' or having complexes that arise but don't get resolved, in that case the 'field' can be reversed and repulsion seems to result).



You might have to re-word that one for me

Also if we want to get deeper into this we should split to a new thread ... this one is spiralling off to outer space in relation to the OP.

My God! Now I am doing it .... the moderator leaves you alone long enough and eventually one starts moderating oneself

Hi Ravenest! Lol!
Wow! Ok... this I understand better. I will definitely have to read several times and think about what I read.

Re-worded - Is it 2 of Cups - "UN-pure love" - because it is "disrupted" or has "ended" because of outside influences with the agony left to feel?.......................

Thank you : )

 

[Zephyros]

Yes, you're right, I was mistaken. I had this idea in my head and I suddenly realized it didn't work.

 

[Margo9023]

Ravenest

So ... back to your first post;

http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups02.jpg (The colour tones in this pic seem to highlight the effect the best)

It does look like the edge of a stage... looking from the back of a stage, past the 'performers' and out into the world of 'non stage'. For me, this can indicate a lot of what was talked about in the thread re keeping the energy secluded or 'pure', sanctified. The actual physical people are apart, coming together with their cups ... note how his hand is just coming out to touch hers.

But the energy field IS connected, see how it is represented by the caduceus; the intertwined energy, the energy is held in a type of 'stasis field', a sanctuary, a temple, it will evolve and turn into something else but that depends on how the 'alchemists' develop or corrupt the energy.

Look at LRichard's example in post #24; the stasis field, sanctuary, temple is depicted with an alchemical alembic (that which contains the operation, a similar concept to the letter Cheth which is associated with this card). The 'line' is higher up on the card, the whole card below this line seems immersed in or under water ... or in 'this world' ... the resultant energy (fire or lion) is in the 'higher' world.

In a way this card shows the division in a flat two dimensional way and the Waite version seems to show it in a 3-D depth perspective

Your original observation is interesting;



Perhaps this is demonstrating how the sanctuary is removed from the every day world (and everyday consciousness) ... Crowley indicates (in De Ludo Amore) that it is hard to comprehend and experience unless one is wholly initiate (which could mean - not with your everyday consciousness).

Oh, Wow! I understand that much better!