3 Cups - Persephone / Demeter

[ravenest]

“Crowley says of the 3 of cups relating it to Persephone that good things should be enjoyed but not trusted, (since Hades kidnapped Persephone ? )

AC says ‘This is the card of Demeter and Persephone” But he doesn’t say why. One could say because of the pomegranites but they are there, IMO because AC associated this card with Perspehone. I can see a very tenuous link by reading the rest of the passage but it seems such a small part of this card.

He says “There is here the fulfilment of the Will of Love in abounding joy.” How does that relate to Demeter and Persephone? Perhaps before the abduction both were in that state? But that, again, seems such a small part of that story. “It is the spiritual basis of fertility.” I feel he would have been better to write a few paragraphs about THAT … seems rather more fascinating?

Yes, Binah is the Great Sea, and The Moon, and Saturn, and Babalon, and the Priestess and part of every woman (and man) … ? Also the ‘gate’ of stability and form … and dissolution and ecstacy.

And Mercury the word of Sol / Zeuss or ‘All-One’ AND the ‘guide of the souls of the dead [Hence my positioning of Mercury as the crown of the ‘underworld’ (psychological Mars, Venus, Moon) and the link to the Sun (ego), hence the ‘bridge’ or modulator to Sun Moon conjoined - All good and fine.]

A thin association there with Mercury as guide to souls in the underworld and Persephone … but thin.

Then there is a little outline of the myth and the reason to include pommegranites on the card but it doesn’t explain the overall association.

Then the last line; “The lesson seems to be that the good things of life, although enjoyed, should be distrusted.”

What on earth are you talking about? ‘Distrusted? Why should good things in life be distrusted? Rubbish! The only reason to distrust them would be a purely human reaction to them or a misinterpretation to them …. He probably should have written OUR REACTIONS TO AND EXPECTATIONS of the good things we enjoy in life should be distrusted. How can one distrust a good thing in life? It would be like not trusting a tree or a sunny day … see that sunny day out there? Don’t trust it.

Obviously Crowley knew this … so what’s he up to here … writing for the masses? Then why bring in this obscure Persephone connection?

Via the decan? I get no suggestion of anything to do with the dynamic of Persephone or Demeter there.

This description and idea of Persephone seems more akin to the 5 cups.

I suppose Crowley is saying the good things in life are good but don’t rely on them for your happiness. But that lesson is in the suit progression.

He seems to have taken such a small part of this card and somewhat blown it out of proportion. And , as usual, doesn’t really explain why.

Anyone got a clue?

 

[Aeon418]

AC says ‘This is the card of Demeter and Persephone” But he doesn’t say why.

Hi Rave!

I'm a bit busy at the moment, so apologies for the brevity.

I think Demeter and Persephone relate to the 3 of Cups because they both have a dual nature in a similar way to Binah as AIMA - the Bright Fertile Mother, and AMA - the Dark Sterile Mother. Being above the abyss these two aspects aren't contradictions. They are a necessary unity.

Moral of the story. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[ravenest]

The connection through Binah seems the most obvious one with Persephone and more so with Demeter but if that is the focus why name the card abundance? I believe that energy is the larger part of the card, as described by its connection to the 2nd decan of Cancer;

Picatrix: A woman of beautiful visage, and having on her head a green wreath of myrtle, and in her hand is the stem of the planet which is called the water lily, she is singing songs of love and joy. And this is a face of playing, and of wealth, joy and abundance.

This 'not trusting' thing ... this 'mother the cause of sorrow' thing .... the Rite of Venus ... thing ... this 'poor me because of mother' thing that appears at times to be used as a ping-pong ball between Crowley and Swinburne .... Ooooh the lamenting of it all ...

 

[Aeon418]

The connection through Binah seems the most obvious one with Persephone and more so with Demeter but if that is the focus why name the card abundance?

Abundance! I can't think of a better name for a card that represents Heh in Briah. Can you come up with something better that encapsulates in one word "the secret Mother in her polymorphous plenitude."

This 'not trusting' thing ... this 'mother the cause of sorrow' thing .... the Rite of Venus ... thing ... this 'poor me because of mother' thing that appears at times to be used as a ping-pong ball between Crowley and Swinburne .... Ooooh the lamenting of it all ...

I don't see the problem. Placing 'trust' in the good things in life inevitably leads to a different card. The 3 of Swords is the place where the Mother gives birth to the Benoni, the Son of my Sorrow - the Ruach which divides experience into good and bad.

 

[ravenest]

Abundance! I can't think of a better name for a card that represents Heh in Briah. Can you come up with something better that encapsulates in one word "the secret Mother in her polymorphous plenitude."

Hmmmm .... sometimes I think I must not be explaining what I mean very well, either that or just sections of my posts attracts attention and they are not read in context with the rest of the post ... ?

No ... my issue isnt the title, what I mean is - IF that is the valid title (and I was saying it WAS, that's why I quoted the Picatrix version of the decan description) whether we call it the Lord of Abundant Joy or 'the Secret Mother in her polymorphous plentitude' and so much of the card is focused on that energy why use the Persephone myth as such a large part of the explaination in such a small description of the cards energy (as outlined in BoT).

My comment that you seem to be refering to; 'if that is the focus why name the card abundance?' is addressed to my observation that Crowley gives the Persephone myth so much importance here why does he put the word abundance on the card.

I agree abundance is a good title I agree Binah can be the secret mother in her polymorphous plentitude ... I dont agree that the myth of Persephone has such a large part in comprehending this card and needs to be modified as I feel Cowley has issues here and gave this concept of 'maternal polymorphous plentitude' a certain slant that I cant really get from the cards energy and associations.

I don't see the problem. Placing 'trust' in the good things in life inevitably leads to a different card. The 3 of Swords is the place where the Mother gives birth to the Benoni, the Son of my Sorrow - the Ruach which divides experience into good and bad.

Like I said ... not trusting the good things in life is a rediculous concept .... its our attitudes, reactions and responses to them that we need to be weary of trusting. Our conceptualisation; when it gets to that level, yes we are talking more about the divide from the ecsatic experience of being in the moment and 'enjoying the good things in life' to the reaction and response and other dualistic / Ruachian levels and yes I see the relationship here to the 3 of swords and that's where that comment belongs about not trusting the good things in life, with the three of swords not the three of cups.

The 'problem' is that at times this 'son of my sorrow' concept seems to get unwarrented presidence and intrudes into other realms ... like the 3 of Cups.

In my opinion and experience the best way to NOT enjoy the good experiences in life is to block the ecsatcy of that experience and not being in THAT moment to think ... this wont last forever ... it's all going to turn to merde ... I think we have all met THAT type in some form or other?

 

[Aeon418]

why use the Persephone myth as such a large part of the explaination in such a small description of the cards energy (as outlined in BoT).

I think the Persephone myth is central to this card because of how it reflects the IHVH formula and explains Crowley's comment about this card being "the spiritual basis of fertility." Persephone's abduction by Hades and the eating of the pomegranate(which corresponds to Malkuth) is reflective of the division between Heh and Heh-final. Persephone's return in Hade's chariot (Atu VII 418 ) signals the arrival of spring. Abundant joy all round me thinks. Or to put it another way it's the setting the Daughter upon the throne of the Mother. The Great Work!

But of course Persephone has to return to the under world for part of the year because of the pomegranate seeds she was tricked into eating. That's the basis of her attachment. Crowley's closing remarks on the 3 of Cups merely seems to be advocating the doctrine of non-attachment. By all means enjoy the good things in life, but be aware of the seductive trap it can be if you allow yourself to be snared. (Which is where the negative aspects of this card come in.) At this point Crowley gives us the example of Persephone. "See what happened to her." The first step in avoiding a trap is knowing of it's existence in the first place.

Let the Scarlet Woman beware!

But there are means and means. Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me.

 

[ravenest]

Yes ... that explains it better. I had already come to a similar conclusion. Persephone ate the pomegranate, she took it inside her body, right through the aura and her 'magical circle’, Hades fruit, that fruit is mostly seed, - so Hades' seed.

I can see an interesting thing here where some women (or 'girls') are attracted to certain unsuitable types of men, for fun, excitement or ? ... fine ... but if you put yourself in a position of attachment (or 'co-generation') then you will be stuck with it - of course there is a similar 'issue' for men.

Hence the pomegranates on the cup are a 'warning' of partaking TOO much, or being attached to, or relying on, any transient experience of 'joyful abundance'. (I learnt that long ago, hence that makes me 'unlucky in love' as they say but only with certain types.)

Still, why (rhetorically) the warning on this card and BoT entry and not the others? All tied in with AC and his take on Binah I suppose.

Thanks for the input

 

[Aeon418]

Still, why (rhetorically) the warning on this card and BoT entry and not the others? All tied in with AC and his take on Binah I suppose.

I think it's because of the special relationship that exists between Binah and Malkuth that makes it such a fundamental aspect of existence. So long as we're incarnated in a body of flesh there's always the possibility of losing sight of the Grail/Binah and focusing on something more earthly. In qabalistic terminology, confusing the Superior Mother with the Inferior Mother. The older systems preach some form of the doctrine of 'renunciation' on this point. But running away from life isn't the Thelemic response.

You might find this essay by Jerry Cornelius interesting.

http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleontheDangersofaNeophyte.html

 

[Aeon418]

The Ordeal of the Neophyte.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjio-F47IfM

 

[Always Wondering]

LOL, poor besieged Neophyte. His burdens are so many.