3 Swords

[Dstar]

Yes I realise the influences, and there's no issue with Tarot being tarot and sybolism continuing etc. But it's the fact that these images are SO similar.

I mentioned the fact that Smith's Death was identical in proportion and posture to the Knight in Durer's engraving, to the point that it seemed almost as though traced over Durer's image. And the 3 swords is the same...if you have access to photoshop or similar digital art software, try laying Smith's 3swords over the Sola-Busca 3swords. You will find that, again, they are idententical in proportion and angle. The swords follow the EXACT angle and are EXACTLY the same distance from each other etc...Smith obviously used this 15th century image as the template (not just the influence). Now, once again, I'm not criticising her for that, I just find it interesting. The main reason that I find it interesting is that - for any artist to do that, rather than drawing from scratch, suggests that they would use a similar method for all the images...and that means that PERHAPS, there is an old image related to every single card in the Waite Smith deck...not just as an influence, but as an actual template to create the artwork.

Some might not find that part of the creative process Smith used interesting, but I do

D.

 

[Moongold]

It is all speculative of course, I have just now been looking through all the Sola Busca images. Many of the concepts are very different from Smith's concepts. She does seem to have put quite a lot of thought into her work so as to convey a certain message that is quite different from the Marseilles. I mean this in relation to the pips.

I am not familiar with the Oswald Wirth deck and will check it out.

I don't mind if she copied or derived inspiration from others. Think of the context of her task and of the times. And we do not know for certain.

 

[Diana]

I don't mind if she copied or derived inspiration from others. Think of the context of her task and of the times. And we do not know for certain.

And thank goodness she did copy and derive inspiration from previous tarots.

Imagine trying to draw an apple that doesn't LOOK like an apple, and expecting people to know what it is.

An Emperor is an Emperor is an Emperor. Depicting it as something completely different would be almost like wanting to be original for originality's sake.

Why try and improve on what doesn't need improving?

The closer we remain to the original iconography, the closer we remain with the original significations and essence of the Arcana.

 

[Fulgour]

I think it's good to stop and think about what Pam really did.
From the whole cloth of the Marseille, she very artfully wove
allegories that speak to us both lyrically and with great power.

Her personal Tarot, the one she read from herself, was likely
the same Marseille we find so captivating today, and yet how
richer we are for her contributions to both art and divination.

 

[Dstar]

I don't think I made my point very well. It really doesn't matter, because it makes absolutely no difference to the importance of Smiths work. I wasn't questioning her for being influenced, or inspired by previous tarot decks or artwork, of course not, that would be rediculous. In fact, I wasn't questioning her at all...

I just found it exciting to get an insight into her artistic methods (not her influences,not her inspiration, or the continuation of symbolism in the tarot throughout the ages... but the actual process of creating the artwork for the cards).

So to clarify, I wasn't surprised to find that the 3 of swords looks similar in both decks...only surprised to find that the two versions match so exactly that one is the actual template that the other was painted over.

But as I said, that makes no difference to, or takes away any value from Smith creations. So I won't go on about it anymore.... .


Phew...I hope everyone knows what I meant now. Without showing you these images laid on top of each other, I can't explain any better...not that anyone would be really interested anyway. Perhaps I went off topic too much, I just got carried away after discovering this...It felt like I'd uncovered the secret of constructing pyramids or something (the winking smiley symbol means I'm exagerating/joking).

D.

 

[Fulgour]

Thank you, Dstar ~ and do calm thesen down

The most "blatantly copied" and extensively imitated deck
of Tarot cards ever, was created through the efforts of one
underpaid but aspiring young lady, an she'd a good eye!

 

[Moongold]

Phew...I hope everyone knows what I meant now. Without showing you these images laid on top of each other, I can't explain any better...not that anyone would be really interested anyway. Perhaps I went off topic too much, I just got carried away after discovering this...It felt like I'd uncovered the secret of constructing pyramids or something (the winking smiley symbol means I'm exagerating/joking).D.

I'd agree ith Fulgour, Dstar.

Your observation is quite interesting and I can see why you would be interested in technique.

Some of Pamela's drawings are oddly out of proportion in parts. I can remember discussing this over the years regarding some cards. I can't remember which ones but last night I wondered whether this "out - of - proportion" thing had happened because she had traced over something else.

I doubt it though. She was quite an accomplished artist in her own right.

Thanks for your interest in the thread. It's good to hear from an artistic perspective.

Moongold

 

[Dstar]

I'm calm...just thought no-one knew what I was on about...

My use of those words 'blatantly copied' may have been a bad choice and clearly caused a ripple... but I was only talking about the method. It got frustrating when many people here seemed to think I was suggesting that her being influenced or inspired was the issue...

Moongold, don't doubt it...she did use these images as a template... I am positive... though perhaps on the badly proportioned ones she didn't have a template. Durer was probably the best engraver in the world ever...so she picked a good place to start (Look I'm going on about it again...but I'm smiling while I'm typing) see....

Love and best wishes to you all,

D.

PS. Was that a bit o' Yorkshire there Fulgour ? .

 

[Fulgour]

'ear all, see all, an say nowt...

Albrecht Dürer
The Knight, Death, and the Devil (1513)

from; Sola Busca, etc.
"3 of Swords"

 

[tmgrl2]

Three of swords...for most decks that have the representation of the heart pierced with three swords, the meaing often given is "sorrow," "pain," "heartache," "loneliness,"......but I have always had trouble with these interpretations as such.

It's funny I just read a post of Umbrae's where he talks about pain, yes, but self-inflicted. Now that works for me, since there is no person in the RWS versions, just the big heart with the three swords....I have come to think of this card as one in which the the three-fold wounds ....as
air/swords times three....spirit X 3.....Consciousness (mind) is being "realized" (a three). When things "come to the surface, to our consciousness, we often experience
a wounding of sorts, since sometimes we are in denial...and we have been our own worst enemy....

So, too, when I see Trois d'Espees in a Tarot de Marseille deck, I think of a three as being the first realization...like the Empress (a three...intellect) who says "I can." versus...e.g. a four, (the Emperor) who says, "I have."

Fours are the four elements manifested but threes are a
fusion of spirits....an integration of all....and if pertaining to the emotional domain, perhaps a resolution of an emotional or love or conflict in the affective domain.....

So...for me, since I use RWS and Morgan Greer and other RWS clones as well as the Tarot de Marseille, I feel the interpretation of the heart pierced with three swords can be broader than the picture suggests, if one keeps in mind the number of the pip and and suit of air.

I definitely see this as a card of internal evolution or coming to consciousness whether through pain or through realization made conscious.

It may even imply a voluntary distancing while one heals or while one prepares to manifest something? (the fours)
Sometimes I see it as a self-revelation or even as an ending to something difficult that someone has overcome through realization that maybe "pain was optional."

Just rambling on this card, since it is one of my favorite unfavorite cards.